Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[smaller]

1 Cor. 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is the christian HOPE!

 

[turnorburn]

What is your response to the following. I cannot, at the moment give the credentials for the source but I am confident that highly respected New Testament scholar has this same view:

• Meet the Lord in the air means two opposing armies who meet in the middle of a battlefield to discuss terms. Meeting in the air was also a way to say dignitaries are here (which was a great honor), from a city and are meeting with emissaries from another city to escort them to a meeting. Sometimes this meant meeting halfway, like diplomats or generals of opposing armies at a village as a neutral zone. This also meant gathering people to join and/or meet. Here, it is with Jesus when He comes back as a “royal coming” (Matt. 24:27-31; Acts 17:7).Rapture is the Latin rendering of the Greek word “harpazo.” The Latin rendering of “raptus” is where we get the word rapture. It is not from the Bible. This does not mean we get to fly up into the air; we may, but the passage and the others people use to support this theory in the contexts clearly states otherwise.

Now: in a proper study, you cannot simply ignore this, or baldly deny it. You should deal with it - show how it is mistaken, since you have claimed there is no metaphor in 1 Thess.

And for my part, I would need to provide some additional historical evidence to substantiate this argument that the bit about "meeting the Lord in the air" is a metaphor in common use in 1st century Palestine.

This a "Bible Study". Let's agree to do what we have to do to properly study: deal with other poster's argument and provide actual substantive arguments for the positions we believe to be correct.

Are you sure that your not reading Gods words in the natural sense?

I Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

When the Lord comes we will be with him in the twinkling of an eye..

I Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The word rapture isn't to be found in scripture but his second coming is..

tob

 

[Drew]

Are you sure that your not reading Gods words in the natural sense?

I am not sure what you mean. All I am doing is:

(1) Pointing out the obvious truth - and is REALLY obvious - that there is at least some metaphorical material in the Bible;
(2) Suggesting that the rapture doctrine is false, and arguing the point based on the assertion that people have taken as literal that which the original writer never intended to be taken thus.

In the recent post, I posted the opinion that I know is shared by an eminent scholar to the effect that the "meeting in the air" image is taken from 1st century Palestinian culture - the context in which Paul lived - and is a metaphor that refers to something other than a literal meeting "in the air". Are you prepared to say this is not the case - that this phrase was not in use as described in post 119.

I have never denied the second coming, I am merely denying the rapture.

 

[smaller]

The sights of rapture or being caught up are shown throughout the scriptures. Many Prophets were essentially "caught up" into a different arena, and shown things by God in Christ. Even the writer of Revelation was in "the Spirit" when he saw the things he saw. Peter was in a "trance" when he saw the vision of the sheet in Acts. Balaam was in a trance when he spoke Gods Words. These are all minor versions of being caught up, such as the man caught up to the third heaven in 2 Cor. 12:1-4.

 

[turnorburn]

Drew said: "I have never denied the second coming, I am merely denying the rapture"

I've always denied the rapture doctrine it was cooked up in the anti reformation campaign..

tob

 

[JLB]

• Meet the Lord in the air means two opposing armies who meet in the middle of a battlefield to discuss terms. Meeting in the air was also a way to say dignitaries are here (which was a great honor), from a city and are meeting with emissaries from another city to escort them to a meeting. Sometimes this meant meeting halfway, like diplomats or generals of opposing armies at a village as a neutral zone. This also meant gathering people to join and/or meet. Here, it is with Jesus when He comes back as a “royal coming” (Matt. 24:27-31; Acts 17:7).Rapture is the Latin rendering of the Greek word “harpazo.” The Latin rendering of “raptus” is where we get the word rapture. It is not from the Bible. This does not mean we get to fly up into the air; we may, but the passage and the others people use to support this theory in the contexts clearly states otherwise.

Now: in a proper study, you cannot simply ignore this, or baldly deny it. You should deal with it - show how it is mistaken, since you have claimed there is no metaphor in 1 Thess.

Brother please don't waste my and your time throwing commentaries at me.

You made it clear you have no intention of simply reading the scripture and believing what it says.

You prefer not to believe the plain and clear words that Paul wrote to us to teach us.

You would rather dismiss these words, caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, as "metaphorical" words right in the middle of Paul teaching about the literal physical coming of the Lord, and the literal physical resurrection of the dead in Christ.


17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17


Please tell me what word or phrase here leads you to believe that, caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, is metaphorical?

JLB

 

[Drew]

Brother please don't waste my and your time throwing commentaries at me.

You cannot get to simply disregard contributions to the discussion that you do not like. I am convinced the person who wrote this commentary is correct in their claim that the greek phrase that gets translated as "meet in the air" was commonly used in 1st century Palestine as a way of referring to something other than a literal "meeting in the air". Are you challenging the correctness of this claim or not.

You do not get to arbitrarily reject evidence you do not like.

You made it clear you have no intention of simply reading the scripture and believing what it says.

Please do not speculate about that which you have no access to, namely my "intentions".

What about the following text? Do you "simply read it and believe what it says"?

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. [Isaiah 55:12, NIV]

Will the mountains and hills literally sing? A simple yes or no, please.
Will the trees clap their hands? A simple yes or no, please.

I asked you these questions before and you did not answer. I will keep asking until you do.

 

[Drew]

You would rather dismiss these words, caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, as "metaphorical" words right in the middle of Paul teaching about the literal physical coming of the Lord, and the literal physical resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Can you please explain to us all precisely why you believe a single teaching cannot contain both literal and metaphorical elements.

And also, consider this:

Proverbs 13:14:The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life.

Is the teaching of the wise something literal? I am sure we will agree it is. Is the "fountain of life" a literal fountain. I say "no". What say ye?

 

[Drew]

This is from Gary Shogren who holds a Phd in New Testament from Kings College, Aberdeen, Scotland. It's a treatment of the "meet in the air" bit from 1 Thess 4:

What does this mean? Based on this conventional usage of “meeting” (apantesis), it may be concluded with a high degree of certainty that Jesus will come to the air; resurrected believers and then living ones will ascend to honor him; then they will immediately accompany him back to the earth. [5] This lies very close to the thought of 2 Thess 1:10 (GNB) – “when he comes on that Day to receive glory from all his people and honour from all who believe.”
Neither here or in any other verse does Paul speak of a Rapture where Christians go to heaven, with the world “left behind” to suffer the tribulation.

 

[Drew]

What brings you to this conclusion that Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is teaching unlearned Gentiles about the literal coming of the Lord and the literal resurrection of the dead, but then those who are alive at the coming of the Lord are somehow excluded from being transformed by having a glorious body like Jesus, and being with Him, when He comes?

I never denied any of this.

I never denied the literal resurrection of the dead.
I never denied a literal return of Jesus.
I never denied a literal transformation of those who are alive.
And I never denied that the whole lot of us will thereafter be with Jesus.

What I am denying is that bodies of any people will be taken away from the earth.

I don't believe any believers will literally be "in the air". And I base this belief on a bunch of stuff, not least the clearly metaphorical character of Daniel 7 which is arguably the source for the "on the clouds" image.

But even if I am wrong - even if believers are literally in the air when they meet Jesus - the more important point is that they will not then leave the earth; they will instead return (with Jesus) to the earth.

 

[Drew]

Are the two main flavors of rapture doctrine both errant? Yes; but that doesn't mean that the deception they promote is enough to keep Christians from their promised personal salvation. The real damage is the attitude of discord they promote amongst Christians who fervently believe their own chosen favorite flavor must be correct.

I agree. I would, however, add that there are also more tenuous and indirect ways in which one's belief about a rapture will play out and have real consequences. As you know, I do not believe there will be a rapture and here is one of what I see as the problematic side-effects of believing in the rapture: it endorses an escapist mindset (at least to some degree).

 

[JLB]

What I am denying is that bodies of any people will be taken away from the earth.

Why do you deny that we who are alive and remain, will be caught up in the air, to meet the Lord in the clouds?

If you believe the Lord will literally come back, and you believe the bodies of those who sleep will be resurrected, why do you deny the catching up of those who are alive and remain since this is found in the same verse that describes the coming of the Lord and the resurrection?


JLB

 

[Drew]

Why do you deny that we who are alive and remain, will be caught up in the air, to meet the Lord in the clouds?

My argument is, in part, that the "meet in the air" image was in use at the time as a metaphor denoting the action whereby people would go out of the city gates and into "the open air", greet a king, and then the whole kit and caboodle would return to the city. Do you have an argument to make that, in Paul's time and culture, this image was not in use? If so, by all means present it.

As I tried to say in my last post, whether we actually are "airborne" when we meet the returning Lord is not really the point (although I am inclined to believe we won't be airborne). The main point is whether, after such a meeting, we all go off to heaven or stay on earth.

And given that our ultimate destination is not heaven - perhaps you will dispute this - but instead a redeemed and restored earth, I think it makes much more sense to believe that we "stay here" and are not spirited off to heaven only to later return to earth. And remember, for about 1800 years, no one in the church believed in the rapture. That does not prove anything of course, but it does give one pause.

Another point which you could legitimately criticize as involving the "appear to authority" error in debate: scholars I respect on other grounds reject the notion of a rapture.

But I am open to changing my mind. But, and this is really at the heart of it all, in a Biblical context where the "on the clouds" image has been used in a clearly metaphorical sense (see below), and in an overall Biblical narrative that entails us ending up on Earth, not escaping it, the concept of a rapture seems very awkward. Do you really believe Caiaphus looked out the window and saw Jesus in the air on a cloud as Jesus tells him he would?:

Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." [Mark 14:61-62, NASB]

 

[digging]

Drew you have made some good points and I agree very much that the promise is about the earth restored. Since you have shared this one vs that speaks of 'coming with the clouds' I'd like to ask you to consider another similarity I recently noticed regarding the language between Christ return and the Rainbow Covenant.
12 God said,"This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations;
13 I setMy bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.
14 "It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud,

30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

 

[Brother Mike]

Drew you have made some good points and I agree very much that the promise is about the earth restored. Since you have shared this one vs that speaks of 'coming with the clouds' I'd like to ask you to consider another similarity I recently noticed regarding the language between Christ return and the Rainbow Covenant.
12 God said,"This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations;
13 I setMy bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.
14 "It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud,

30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

The Earth is not restored, it gets melted in a big ball of red molten goo. It's cursed, there is nothing to salvage.

 

[Sinthesis]

I agree. I would, however, add that there are also more tenuous and indirect ways in which one's belief about a rapture will play out and have real consequences. As you know, I do not believe there will be a rapture and here is one of what I see as the problematic side-effects of believing in the rapture: it endorses an escapist mindset (at least to some degree).

I fully agree that a pop culture rapture mindset can promote some very unchristlike attitudes:

• escapist
• defeatist
• judgmental
• vindictive
• haughty

What is needed is a better alternative understanding of the scriptures used to promote pop culture rapture theory, otherwise most will think Christianity itself is being attacked. I believe the supporting scriptures describe several separate phenomena, rather than being confused by rapture theory into a single event. This is why there is such vitriol amongst rapture proponents, because the multiple individual rapture events being described in scripture are spread out before, during, and after tribulation etc., so that for the pop culture rapture adherent it is a matter of taste as to which passages one emphasizes or ignores. An accurate rapture theory needs to accommodate all scripture.

 

[Sinthesis]

The Earth is not restored, it gets melted in a big ball of red molten goo. It's cursed, there is nothing to salvage.

You were cursed, yet you've been salvaged.

 

[Brother Mike]

You were cursed, yet you've been salvaged.

Right, but my body will be left in a hole, or on earth somewhere, I will get a new body. Just like the Earth.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(2Pe 3:10-12)

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat_24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Rev_21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Can't wait to see the look on the faces of those crying about global Warming now. I hope I am allowed to have a camera, priceless.

 

[JLB]

My argument is, in part, that the "meet in the air" image was in use at the time as a metaphor

Yes, I know you believe "meet in the air", is not literal.

The question is why you believe this, as the other 2 events described in this same verse, are literal.

What word or phrase in this verse that describes the literal coming of the Lord, and the literal resurrection of the dead in Christ, leads you to believe the catching up part is not literal.

This method of interpretation of just deciding that a verse that teaches literal things, has some other non literal meaning because of your private interpretation, is dangerous and is how cults twist God's word and deceive the unlearned into being led astray.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19


JLB

 

[reba]

Joh_1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Jesus was walking He was there..(not a metaphor ) the Lamb of God a metaphor... in the same verse ..