Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[reba]

JLB if you do not believe Jesus is a lamb why not ... The Word says it very plain .. Behold the Lamb of God.
Others have the same sorta view of .. It is not that folks dont believe it they just view it differently...
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[JLB]

JLB if you do not believe Jesus is a lamb why not ... The Word says it very plain .. Behold the Lamb of God.
Others have the same sorta view of .. It is not that folks dont believe it they just view it differently...
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We understand from the OT type the Passover Lamb, that Jesus is the reality or substance of that shadow, as this verse is about both the shadow and the substance.

Unlike the verse in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, whereby we are being taught literal realities concerning the literal coming of the Lord, and the literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Lamb of God, Lion of Judah... Are names that refer to the literal Lord Jesus Christ.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Paul teaches that the dead in Christ are caught up in the air to meet the Lord in the air, which means the Lord is literally in the air coming on the clouds of heaven (Matthew 24:30), and the dead are caught up to meet him and are with Him there, and those who are alive and remain are caught up WITH THEM AND WITH THE LORD...

Drew's interpretation views the Lord and the dead in Christ, in the air, but those who are alive and remain are not caught up with them, as the scripture so plainly states, but remain on earth and go to some "open square" somewhere and don't go to be with the dead in Christ and don't go to be with the Lord in the air, because his interpretation deny's the reality of those who are alive and remain being "caught up" with dead in Christ, to be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ, share the same words of being "caught up", with those who are alive and remain, but Drew's interpretation has being "caught up" as meaning one thing for the dead in Christ, and meaning "something else" for those who are alive and remain, though they share the same phrase from the same verse.

Can you see what I'm saying?


JLB

 

[reba]

Take a look at how the word cloud is sometimes used in the OT

Check it out in relationship to the Tabernacle
or the mercy seat
Lev_16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

 

[JLB]

Take a look at how the word cloud is sometimes used in the OT

Check it out in relationship to the Tabernacle
or the mercy seat
Lev_16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

Yeah, it's the literal Glory cloud, sometimes described as Shekinah Glory.


Jesus will return on the "clouds of heaven", which are literal.

The dead in Christ will be caught up with Him, and so will those who are alive and remain.
Both groups will be caught up and be with Him, together in the air, in the clouds.


JLB

 

[reba]

well that is interesting Seems to me you read the word 'heaven' as our atmosphere.

Both groups will be caught up and be with Him, together in the air, in the clouds.

dont forget the plain words "and so shall we ever be with the Lord," in keeping with your understanding of 1 Thes 4:7 you then must also believe we are for ever in the clouds of earth atmosphere with our Lord?

 

[JLB]

Right, but my body will be left in a hole, or on earth somewhere,

No sir.

Your body will rise from the dust and be transformed.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

Immortality will swallow up mortality.

Paul teaches that we will be further clothed with an immortal body, rather than have a brand new immortal body.

We will be raised from the dead just like Jesus.

Jesus had the same body with nail prints and a gash in His side from being pierced.

Likewise we also will be further clothed with immortality.

Otherwise, why raise some brand new body from the grave or tomb or dust that was never buried???

4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

and again -

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

Their bodies will rise from where they were laid in the dust, and be transformed, just like those who are alive and remain will be caught up and transformed.



JLB

 

[smaller]

I fully agree that a pop culture rapture mindset can promote some very unchristlike attitudes:

• escapist
• defeatist
• judgmental
• vindictive
• haughty

What is needed is a better alternative understanding of the scriptures used to promote pop culture rapture theory, otherwise most will think Christianity itself is being attacked. I believe the supporting scriptures describe several separate phenomena, rather than being confused by rapture theory into a single event. This is why there is such vitriol amongst rapture proponents, because the multiple individual rapture events being described in scripture are spread out before, during, and after tribulation etc., so that for the pop culture rapture adherent it is a matter of taste as to which passages one emphasizes or ignores. An accurate rapture theory needs to accommodate all scripture.

I've witnessed many a believer who goes into Revelation, thinks they see somethings absolutely critical that no one else sees, and then their entire lives are permanently disrupted. It can be a very vicious thing to engage, without some caution.

I've studied these things out for decades, read, probably every angle available in the realm, and STILL have no solid position about "all the details." At least not one I'm willing to sacrifice my theological head over.

I've even done this twice, read the entire thing out loud, just to make sure I both READ and HEARD. :nod

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[smaller]

There are actually a couple of really really solid positions that I DO have, that I have gleaned from "end time" and revelation, and yes, one of them is that we WILL be changed, beyond any doubt. I not only know this, but have "personally" tasted this in many ways, of heavenly things. So, yes, CHANGE is on the horizon.

But what will that entail? This, to me, would be a bit of mandatory understanding. We should understand that the BULK of the adverse matters in "rapture/tribulations/end time" has to do with this fact:

The utter and TOTAL destruction of the DEVIL and his messengers. And if believers MISS this part, they really MISS the bulk of the targets in Rev. or in any other matters concerning end times.

And IN THIS SIGHT, I have GREAT HOPE.

 

[JLB]

well that is interesting Seems to me you read the word 'heaven' as our atmosphere.

dont forget the plain words "and so shall we ever be with the Lord," in keeping with your understanding of 1 Thes 4:7 you then must also believe we are for ever in the clouds of earth atmosphere with our Lord?

Reba, do you honestly believe the Lord will come from Heaven, and stop in the clouds and stay there???

The Lord is on His way from Heaven down to earth, specifically down to Jerusalem, where He will reign and rule from, and those who will reign and rule with Him, will forever be Him.


All His people will be caught up with Him in the clouds, and His people will return with Him, in a joyful, triumphant procession with Him as He returns to Jerusalem.


1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5



JLB

 

[Drew]

The Earth is not restored, it gets melted in a big ball of red molten goo. It's cursed, there is nothing to salvage.

I very much doubt it. I know that there is at least one text - perhaps from 1 Peter - that might give this impression. However, I believe the grand scope of scripture clearly points to a restoration, a healing, and a redemption of this Earth. There is "reversal of the fall" language all over the place in both Testaments. Here is just one example:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. [Romans 8:20-22, NASB]

God created this earth and declared it to be "very good". Will He then burn it away?

I have only just begun - there are many texts and Biblical themes that point to the redemption of this world, not its destruction. And we can talk about the texts that appear to suggest destruction.

 

[Drew]

Can't wait to see the look on the faces of those crying about global Warming now. I hope I am allowed to have a camera, priceless.

This is precisely why getting the theology right matters. I happen to believe you are mistaken in your theology about what happens to the earth. This actually matters precisely because this mistake leads you, and others who share your view, to adopt a "well the earth is destined to be destroyed anyway, so let's not sweat global warming" attitude.

But if God is actually working toward a restoration and redemption of the earth, we need to not work against Him by destroying His beautiful creation through things like human-caused global warming.

 

[Drew]

Mat_24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

This is not a simple problem. I am going to say that this "earth shall pass away" language really captures the notion that the earth as it is now will pass away in the sense that it will be redeemed, healed, and transformed into what it should always have been.

Can this "pass away" language be read as suggesting the destruction of this present earth? Of course it can. But not when you look at a range of other texts that speak clearly of restoration. So while "pass away" language is admittedly ambiguous - it could be taken in a number of different ways - the overall Biblical picture points strongly to a model where the Earth is healed and restored, not burnt away (and then maybe replaced).

It is no coincidence that Mary mistakes the risen Jesus for the gardener. The resurrection is not just "about us". It is about a restoration programme for all creation: having Jesus seen as a gardener evokes the Eden image, implying that this present world is being "reset" in a sense to Edenic state of affairs, at least in principle.

Do you really believe the gardener allusion in the resurrection account is not supposed to tell us this?

 

[Drew]

Drew's interpretation views the Lord and the dead in Christ, in the air, but those who are alive and remain are not caught up with them, as the scripture so plainly states, but remain on earth and go to some "open square" somewhere and don't go to be with the dead in Christ and don't go to be with the Lord in the air, because his interpretation deny's the reality of those who are alive and remain being "caught up" with dead in Christ, to be with the Lord.

This is not my view.

The dead in Christ, share the same words of being "caught up", with those who are alive and remain, but Drew's interpretation has being "caught up" as meaning one thing for the dead in Christ, and meaning "something else" for those who are alive and remain, though they share the same phrase from the same verse.

No. No. No. I definitely do not believe this.

My view has the same features as yours except that I believe the meeting takes place on the ground and all participants remain on the ground thereafter.

 

[digging]

I'm 100% in agreement with you on this point Drew. For myself I see these descriptions as symbols to communicate the full spiritual awaking and understanding that will happen for all the chosen during the time of the return.

Notice the wording in this vs

1 Corinthians 10:2 NAS
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

 

[JLB]

This is not my view.


No. No. No. I definitely do not believe this.

My view has the same features as yours except that I believe the meeting takes place on the ground and all participants remain on the ground thereafter.

Your view is diametrically opposed to what the scriptures plainly say.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


...together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...

They all meet in the clouds and in the air, not on the ground!!!



JLB

 

[digging]

Here is one more scripture to carefully consider, let us ask ourselves How was Israel of the past in Heaven that she could be cast from Heaven to the Earth?

Lamentations 2:1 NAS

1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He has cast from heaven to earth The glory of Israel, And has not remembered His footstool In the day of His anger.

 

[digging]

JLB with all your bold and red type is seems like you are yelling all the time....

 

[JLB]

I'm 100% in agreement with you on this point Drew. For myself I see these descriptions as symbols to communicate the full spiritual awaking and understanding that will happen for all the chosen during the time of the return.

Notice the wording in this vs

1 Corinthians 10:2 NAS
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

The cloud that they followed was a literal cloud, that was a type, that foreshadowed the Holy Spirit.

The man Moses they followed was a literal man they followed that was a type, that foreshadowed Christ.

The sea that they walked through, was a literal sea, that was a type that foreshadowed Baptism in water.


What Drew has done is taken the words of scripture, "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.And thus we shall always be with the Lord", and changed the words of scripture to say that meet in the air, really means meet on the ground.


Eventually they will all be on the ground in Jerusalem, but first they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, on His way down to Jerusalem.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is one more scripture to carefully consider, let us ask ourselves How was Israel of the past in Heaven that she could be cast from Heaven to the Earth?

Lamentations 2:1 NAS

1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He has cast from heaven to earth The glory of Israel, And has not remembered His footstool In the day of His anger.

He has cast from heaven to earth, the glory of Israel.


It does not say He cast Israel of the past from heaven to earth.


JLB


How about purple, is that a better color? ed

 

[Brother Mike]

This is precisely why getting the theology right matters. I happen to believe you are mistaken in your theology about what happens to the earth. This actually matters precisely because this mistake leads you, and others who share your view, to adopt a "well the earth is destined to be destroyed anyway, so let's not sweat global warming" attitude.

But if God is actually working toward a restoration and redemption of the earth, we need to not work against Him by destroying His beautiful creation through things like human-caused global warming.

I just posted how many scriptures that promise this Earth is toast, done, Going to be replaced? Those scriptures not say those things. Is this not like another conversation we had about taking the scripture for what they say?

it almost sounds like you lean toward preterism, but we know that would be bad, right?