Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[digging]

I know that.... I'm pointing out the clear language that a 'part' of Israel was 'in heaven' and was cast to the earth and this scripture speaking about Israel of the past.

Purple is much better!

 

[Drew]

Your view is diametrically opposed to what the scriptures plainly say.

No. The difference is that you take "caught up in the air" literally, while I take it metaphorically.

I have provided substantive justification for my position - citing scholars who claim that the "in the air" image was a metaphor in use in Paul's day. The neutral reader will expect you to address those arguments. But you do not, and appear to more or less argue that since most parts of the account is literal, there cannot be metaphorical elements as well. I have asked you to explain why hold to this principle and I am pretty sure you have not done so.

I am not sure our disagreement on whether this meeting takes place in the air or in the "open air on the ground" is really that important. What is important, I suggest, is "what happens next".

I believe no one leaves planet earth after this meeting with the Lord. What say ye?

 

[Brother Mike]

I very much doubt it. I know that there is at least one text - perhaps from 1 Peter - that might give this impression. However, I believe the grand scope of scripture clearly points to a restoration, a healing, and a redemption of this Earth. There is "reversal of the fall" language all over the place in both Testaments. Here is just one example:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. [Romans 8:20-22, NASB]

God created this earth and declared it to be "very good". Will He then burn it away?

I have only just begun - there are many texts and Biblical themes that point to the redemption of this world, not its destruction. And we can talk about the texts that appear to suggest destruction.

The World is waiting on us to start walking in the Power of God, it is not talking about the planet being saved.

For the creation (nature) was subjected to frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope [Eccl. 1:2.] That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
(Rom 8:20-21)

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:23)

It's in comparison to our body, our body is not going to be saved either, we get a new body, and the earth will be replaced.

 

[Drew]

I just posted how many scriptures that promise this Earth is toast, done, Going to be replaced? Those scriptures not say those things. Is this not like another conversation we had about taking the scripture for what they say?

Well, I have something to say about the 2 Peter text and I will get to that later. I have also made an argument for reading at least one of the texts you posted in a manner that does not entail the Earth getting "toasted". Please address that argument.

And you need to address the Romans 8 text I posted. That text rather clearly speaks of creation being liberated from bondage to decay. Aren't you the one who said the earth is cursed? Paul appears to believe otherwise.

it almost sounds like you lean toward preterism, but we know that would be bad, right?

Well, we can talk about that. I certainly do have inclinations in the preterist direction and am happy to talk about that.

 

[JLB]

I just posted how many scriptures that promise this Earth is toast, done, Going to be replaced? Those scriptures not say those things. Is this not like another conversation we had about taking the scripture for what they say?

it almost sounds like you lean toward preterism, but we know that would be bad, right?

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:10-13


whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:21


All the things that man has done to the earth such as; structures and underground gas pipe lines, and sewerage... that have contaminated the earth will be burned up, in order to restore the earth to it's original beauty and design.

A cleansing all consuming fire...


JLB

 

[reba]

Your view is diametrically opposed to what the scriptures plainly say.

is your view apposed to the clear plain words ...
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You see JLB the difference is the understanding... you think/believe/say the first 24 words of that verse are literal and the next nine are not....

 

[Drew]

The World is waiting on us to start walking in the Power of God, it is not talking about the planet being saved.[
For the creation (nature) was subjected to frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope [Eccl. 1:2.] That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
(Rom 8:20-21)

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:23)

It's in comparison to our body, our body is not going to be saved either, we get a new body, and the earth will be replaced.

You are making my argument for me. The very text you bolded clearly declares that all creation - and that includes the earth of course - gets liberated from decay. And you are telling us all that, having been thus liberated, God is going to toss it into the cosmic garbage can?

Yes, of course the text talks also about redemption of bodies. But do you think that gives us the right to ignore what is also said about the redemption of the broader cosmos?

It seems to me that many Christians think "it's all about us going to heaven when we die". It's not - God loves His creation and the Scriptures teach that He will redeem it.

 

[reba]

Brother Mike
Psa_37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Mat_5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

These verses are as much Scripture as any others

 

[Drew]

A cleansing all consuming fire...

I believe this is probably a very legitimate reading of this text that many thing announces that the Earth will be burned away to cinders. Especially since so many other texts speak of restoration of creation. There are also texts that refer to fire as a cleansing agent, not a destroying one.

Aside: It's a little funny that we agree on this issue but not on the "in the air" question. C'est la vie.

 

[Drew]

What Drew has done is taken the words of scripture, "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.And thus we shall always be with the Lord", and changed the words of scripture to say that meet in the air, really means meet on the ground.

Indeed. And when someone says "it's raining cats and dogs", I "change" that to mean "it's raining heavily".

It's called metaphor.

 

[Drew]

Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus...."sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven" [Mark 14:62, NASB]

Will Caiaphus look out the window and see Jesus riding on a cloud?

Of course not.

It's a metaphor, drawing on both a Psalm and Daniel 7. What Caiaphus will see, of course, is Jesus' resurrection and the birth of a movement that sees Jesus as the world's new King.

That's what "coming on the clouds" really means.

 

[JLB]

Indeed. And when someone says "it's raining cats and dogs", I "change" that to mean "it's raining heavily".

It's called metaphor.

The problem you have is your changing scripture, that is literal, to mean something else.

If there were some metaphorical words in that chapter or in that verse, or in that sentence, then maybe you would have a valid point.

As I said, the dead in Christ being raised to meet the Lord in the air, the Lord Coming in the air from Heaven are literal.

The dead in Christ being raised, which is literal, to meet the Lord in the air, which is literal, shares the same verse with the those who are alive being caught up in the air.

Are you saying all three things in verse 17, the Lord Coming in the air, the dead in Christ being raised, and those who are alive are caught up with them, to meet the Lord in the air, are all metaphorical?

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

...meet the Lord in the air.

If this is just a big metaphor, that has some other meaning then, the Lord Coming and the resurrection and those who are alive being transformed, is metaphorical as well.


1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;
2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;
10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more;
11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Please point out for me where the metaphor begins and ends in this Chapter.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm pointing out the clear language that a 'part' of Israel was 'in heaven'

Please point out the clear language of that says a "part" of Israel was in heaven.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus...."sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven" [Mark 14:62, NASB]

Will Caiaphus look out the window and see Jesus riding on a cloud?

Of course not.

Who says it's a metaphor?

Is Jesus sitting at the right hand of God a metaphor? No.

Is Jesus coming on the clouds on heaven a metaphor? No.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

again

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 9:11


Brother, I have to warn you in love, you are playing games with God's word.


JLB

 

[Drew]

If there were some metaphorical words in that chapter or in that verse, or in that sentence, then maybe you would have a valid point.

But this is the very point we are discussing. What you are doing is called "begging the question":

"To beg a question means to assume the conclusion of an argument—a type of circular reasoning."

IAre you saying all three things in verse 17, the Lord Coming in the air, the dead in Christ being raised, and those who are alive are caught up with them, to meet the Lord in the air, are all metaphorical?

Ye have caused me to rend my garment......

The only thing that I believe is metaphorical is the "in the air" part.

I have already clearly stated this?

If this is just a big metaphor, that has some other meaning then, the Lord Coming and the resurrection and those who are alive being transformed, is metaphorical as well.

Why do you keep using this reasoning? Why do you think there cannot be a mix of metaphorical and literal elements. I have repeatedly ask you this question and you do not answer. I suspect you think there is some sort of rule that literal elements and metaphorical elements cannot go together. But clearly they can and often do. Including the in Bible.

Please point out for me where the metaphor begins and ends in this Chapter.

1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;

---Has Paul been teaching people the mechanics of activating their legs to move along the road? No? Then "ought to walk" is a metaphor. Steeerike 1!
....
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,

---Does Paul really care about the care of pots and containers for liquids? No? Then "vessel" is metaphorical. Steerike 2!

12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

---Does Paul really care about how people move their legs as they travel along? No? Then "walk" is metaphorical. Steerike 3!

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

---Is Paul really talking about brethren who are catching a few Zs? No. Then "asleep" is metaphorical. Steeerike 4!

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

---Does God play the trumpet? Well, maybe - I will let this one pass.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I trust the point is clear: on at least 4 occasions in this verse, Paul is not speaking literally.[/QUOTE]

 

[Drew]

Who says it's a metaphor?

Is Jesus sitting at the right hand of God a metaphor? No.

Is Jesus coming on the clouds on heaven a metaphor? No.

OK then, explain how Caiaphus saw these things:

Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." [Mark 14:61, 62]

...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And what of Caiaphus? Jesus says "you", as in Caiaphus, will see these things.

Are we going to have dig old Caiaphus up to make your literalistic interpretation come true?

Brother, I have to warn you in love, you are playing games with God's word.

I politely suggest that a neutral reader will see that you are not making your case at all and that my case is fairly well supported.

 

[Drew]

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 9:11

I have never denied these are to be taken literally. You seem to think that a single concept - in this case the idea of 'coming on clouds' is either always used literally or never used literally.

What about "it's raining cats and dogs"? Is the concept of "dog" always to be interpreted the same way, no matter whether it appears in the foregoing or in "the dog bit me"?

 

[Drew]

Hi JLB:

It seems that we agree on what I think is important - no one is taken away from the earth for an extended holiday in heaven. So I am perfectly happy to agree to disagree on the matter of the exact altitude at which everyone comes together.

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Mike
Psa_37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Mat_5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

These verses are as much Scripture as any others

Yep, the Meek do, up until the time God melts it into a big mess.

 

[Brother Mike]

You are making my argument for me. The very text you bolded clearly declares that all creation - and that includes the earth of course - gets liberated from decay. And you are telling us all that, having been thus liberated, God is going to toss it into the cosmic garbage can?

Yes, of course the text talks also about redemption of bodies. But do you think that gives us the right to ignore what is also said about the redemption of the broader cosmos?

It seems to me that many Christians think "it's all about us going to heaven when we die". It's not - God loves His creation and the Scriptures teach that He will redeem it.

he remakes it, starts over. The first Earth is cursed, it's out of course, it's corrupted. It gets melted. What's the big deal about getting a brand new planet?