Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[Brother Mike]

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:10-13


whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:21


All the things that man has done to the earth such as; structures and underground gas pipe lines, and sewerage... that have contaminated the earth will be burned up, in order to restore the earth to it's original beauty and design.

A cleansing all consuming fire...


JLB

The Earth will be restored, with a new Earth. The elements will even melt. The surface will be molten rock as the elements will melt. Hell will be removed from the center as it's corruption, and cast into the Lake of fire.

 

[Drew]

he remakes it, starts over. The first Earth is cursed, it's out of course, it's corrupted. It gets melted. What's the big deal about getting a brand new planet?

The big deal is that Paul writes about this creation - the one you and I are sitting in - being liberated from bondage to decay. That sounds very much the beginnings of a restoration project, not a project that will end up with God destroying the very creation that has been liberated from bondage to decay at the cost of Jesus's blood.

Consider this text from Isaiah 55:13 [NASB]
13"Instead of the thorn bush the cypress will come up,
And instead of the nettle the myrtle will come up,
And it will be a memorial to the Lord,
For an everlasting sign which will not be cut off."

This has a strong "reversal of the fall" flavor to it, I suggest.

 

[Drew]

The Earth will be restored, with a new Earth. The elements will even melt. The surface will be molten rock as the elements will melt. Hell will be removed from the center as it's corruption, and cast into the Lake of fire.

Two things:

1. Are you suggesting that Hell is located at the centre of our planet?
2. The fact that the language of melting elements is used does not require us to take stuff literally - I believe that it's a colorful way of expressing the radical transformation that the earth will undergo.

Regarding point 2: I know a lot of people around here are skeptical about the use of metaphorical language. But I am prepared to show from the Old Testament that this kind of spectacular "cosmic meltdown" language is generally used in a clearly metaphorical way. The problem is that people come to their Bible not knowing this and believe things like the stars will fall to earth and the moon will melt, or whatever. But if you actually study the Old Testament, not to mention the cultural practices of the time, it is really quite clear that this language is metaphorical.

 

[dianegcook]

To drew and job
Hi
I believe that "in the air" means spirit.
Air, strong's #109 greek means, to breathe, breath

 

[Drew]

To drew and job
Hi
I believe that "in the air" means spirit.
Air, strong's #109 greek means, to breathe, breath

Thanks for the input. Are you saying that you identified the phrase as rendered in the original Greek? Things are getting more complicated, but that's ok.

 

[dianegcook]

To drew and jlb
Hi
I believe that "in the air" means spirit.
Air, strong's #109 and #55994, greek ,
means, to breathe, breath, the breath of life ,Spirit.
We shall meet them in the spiritual dimension.

Clouds can also mean, witnesses,
Heb. 12:1
A cloud of witnesses.
Others in the spiritual.
Like a cloud of locusts.

I also do not believe in the pretrib rapture.

The saints do not get rewarded until the 7th trump, Satan comes at the 6th.
Rev.11:18

Good day

 

[Sinthesis]

I know that.... I'm pointing out the clear language that a 'part' of Israel was 'in heaven' and was cast to the earth and this scripture speaking about Israel of the past.

Purple is much better!

It is so nice to see someone using scripture to interpret scripture. Lamentations is about the fall and judgement of First Temple Era Israel. Clearly 'fall' is not about physical elevation but spiritual status, whereby 'heavenly' represents good and 'earthly' represents not so good. When we consider 'the fall' caused by original sin, nobody takes that expression as meaning a literal change in elevation.

 

[Brother Mike]

Two things:

1. Are you suggesting that Hell is located at the centre of our planet?
2. The fact that the language of melting elements is used does not require us to take stuff literally - I believe that it's a colorful way of expressing the radical transformation that the earth will undergo.

Regarding point 2: I know a lot of people around here are skeptical about the use of metaphorical language. But I am prepared to show from the Old Testament that this kind of spectacular "cosmic meltdown" language is generally used in a clearly metaphorical way. The problem is that people come to their Bible not knowing this and believe things like the stars will fall to earth and the moon will melt, or whatever. But if you actually study the Old Testament, not to mention the cultural practices of the time, it is really quite clear that this language is metaphorical.

This is where we won't agree. I take scripture very literal. Jesus said nothing by any means shall hurt you, I believe that, and that means nothing can possibly every hurt me.

So if scripture says the elements of the earth will be melted, then they are getting melted, and it will be very colourful, but not how you think.

 

[dianegcook]

Thanks for the input. Are you saying that you identified the phrase as rendered in the original Greek? Things are getting more complicated, but that's ok.

Sorry drew having problems logging in, my post keep disappearing. Lol
Hope the 2nd one helped you out better.

 

[Drew]

We shall meet them in the spiritual dimension.

Well, this is yet another view on the meaning of this famous text; the more options put out for consideration the better, all other things being equal.

 

[Sinthesis]

Psa 104:1 ¶ Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
Psa 104:2 - Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Psa 104:3 - Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Gen 46:29 - And Joseph made ready his chariot, and went up to meet Israel his father, to Goshen, and presented himself unto him; and he fell on his neck, and wept on his neck a good while.​

Most Christians are willing to identify themselves as 'Israel', and some even recognize Joseph as a type for The LORD.

 

[HalleluYAH]

To drew and jlb
Hi
I believe that "in the air" means spirit.
Air, strong's #109 and #55994, greek ,
means, to breathe, breath, the breath of life ,Spirit.
We shall meet them in the spiritual dimension.

Clouds can also mean, witnesses,
Heb. 12:1
A cloud of witnesses.
Others in the spiritual.
Like a cloud of locusts.

I also do not believe in the pretrib rapture.

The saints do not get rewarded until the 7th trump, Satan comes at the 6th.
Rev.11:18

Good day

Spot on answer!

 

[jasonc]

the greek word for air is pneuma. as in pneumatic

 

[Brother Mike]

To drew and jlb
Hi
I believe that "in the air" means spirit.
Air, strong's #109 and #55994, greek ,
means, to breathe, breath, the breath of life ,Spirit.
We shall meet them in the spiritual dimension.

Clouds can also mean, witnesses,
Heb. 12:1
A cloud of witnesses.
Others in the spiritual.
Like a cloud of locusts.

I also do not believe in the pretrib rapture.

The saints do not get rewarded until the 7th trump, Satan comes at the 6th.
Rev.11:18

Good day

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:17)

nephelē Is the Greek word for cloud, always translated cloud. Female noun, needing the Article or Male noun following to identify. Can't mean Witness.
Aer has always been translated Air, not spirit. Spirit would be pneuma. And it's aēmi that means to breath, not Aer which describes the Atmosphere. You conveniently skipped the Strongs word "FROM" Aemi.

nephos a Neuter Noun was used once in Hebrews. A great Cloud of Witness, and does not mean Witnesses. Else it would be a Male noun.

Which just means your confused, changing the Word to what you want it to say.With total disregard for any of the Greek nouns and how they are used.

Spot on maybe, but a spot that needs cleaned and removed, that's for sure.

Always glad to be of help.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." [Mark 14:61, 62]

You shall see is future tense, as this event won't happen UNTILL the end of the age, unless your John and are caught up to heaven and are given a view of the future.

JLB

 

[ezrider]

I am not going to direct this at any one person posting in this thread, but there appears to be a certain sort of gleeful hope that the earth is consumed by a giant fireball, and everything will melt. But it seems to me that they have never understood the promises of God that do accompany His New Covenant in Christ. Now God made a covenant with Noah and the Earth where he made swore a promise, but that seems to be discounted. The Lord brought that promise in with the New Covenant as well, but that is disregarded as well. Why is that? Do you wish to Glory in destruction?


Have you forgotten the promises made with our father Abraham, when He pleaded with the Lord. Perhaps for fifty righteous, will you still destroyed it. No I will not. Perhaps forty, for forty righteous will you destroy it? No I will not.

Why should I worry about your destruction. That is not the covenant that I Live by, but hey, maybe if I can become the righteousness of God in Christ, by His Righteousness and through His Righteousness; well then peradventure there only be ten righteous, will then destroy it? No, for the sake of the ten I shall not destroy it.

What do you seek after. Destruction? Or Salvation?

 

[Drew]

You shall see is future tense, as this event won't happen UNTILL the end of the age, unless your John and are caught up to heaven and are given a view of the future.

JLB

But Jesus says these words to Caiaphus. So if your view is right, we'll have to dig up poor Caiaphus so he can Jesus "coming on the clouds".

I trust you see the problem with this....

 

[Sinthesis]

I am not going to direct this at any one person posting in this thread, but there appears to be a certain sort of gleeful hope that the earth is consumed by a giant fireball, and everything will melt. But it seems to me that they have never understood the promises of God that do accompany His New Covenant in Christ. Now God made a covenant with Noah and the Earth where he made swore a promise, but that seems to be discounted. The Lord brought that promise in with the New Covenant as well, but that is disregarded as well. Why is that? Do you wish to Glory in destruction?


Have you forgotten the promises made with our father Abraham, when He pleaded with the Lord. Perhaps for fifty righteous, will you still destroyed it. No I will not. Perhaps forty, for forty righteous will you destroy it? No I will not.

Why should I worry about your destruction. That is not the covenant that I Live by, but hey, maybe if I can become the righteousness of God in Christ, by His Righteousness and through His Righteousness; well then peradventure there only be ten righteous, will then destroy it? No, for the sake of the ten I shall not destroy it.

What do you seek after. Destruction? Or Salvation?

Vindictiveness is a seductive spirit, but, just like Abraham, we shouldn't glory in the judgement and destruction of others.

Luk 9:51 ¶ And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luk 9:52 - And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53 - And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 - And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 - But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 - For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.​

 

[dianegcook]

the greek word for air is pneuma. as in pneumatic

I have an exhaustive strongs sitting in front of me and it says#109 aer from aemi meaning to breathe , comp to #5594 psucho, primary verb, to breathe.
Gen.2:7
God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:17)

nephelē Is the Greek word for cloud, always translated cloud. Female noun, needing the Article or Male noun following to identify. Can't mean Witness.
Aer has always been translated Air, not spirit. Spirit would be pneuma. And it's aēmi that means to breath, not Aer which describes the Atmosphere. You conveniently skipped the Strongs word "FROM" Aemi.

nephos a Neuter Noun was used once in Hebrews. A great Cloud of Witness, and does not mean Witnesses. Else it would be a Male noun.

Which just means your confused, changing the Word to what you want it to say.With total disregard for any of the Greek nouns and how they are used.

Spot on maybe, but a spot that needs cleaned and removed, that's for sure.

Always glad to be of help.

Mike.

I did not give you a Greek definition of cloud.
It could mean other things besides a white fluffy thing in the sky.
In 1Thess.4: it states meet, join, our deceased loved ones in the clouds.
They are coming with Christ to reign.
Mark 13:27
Gather His elect from the uttermost part of the earth and the UTTERMOST PART OF HEAVEN.
Rev.20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part of the first resurrection, but they shall be priests of GOD and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

No confusion here.
Good evening

 

[dianegcook]

Fireball?
God is a consuming fire.Heb.12:29
All evil rudiments will be burnt up.
As the 3 in the furnace, the smell of smoke didn't even touch them.