Is the Ten Commandment Abolished?

[Ashua]

I agree with Drew here ^.

I also believe that if we go back to what Bob said here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/ten-commandment-abolished-28754/index2.html#post450535

we would better understand our relationship with the Royal 10.

It was also mentioned that the Law was nailed to the cross. One may believe that if they choose, depending on the system of theology they believe. Like Drew said, what Law was Paul addressing?

Besides that, the Bible says what was nailed to the cross was the handwriting of ordinances. We are some 2,000 years removed from the time Paul wrote Colossians. This does not refer the the Law or the Royal 10. Remember, Paul is warning us of man made decrees. We see the same teachings in Ephesians.

We are no longer subject to the laws of man. Man came up with decrees describing various penalties for breaking certain laws.

Colossians 2:14 Explained!

I already covered that verse. There are at least 4 or 5 versions that translate it to mean record of offenses or charges brought against us. It was our criminal wrap sheet that bore witness against us that was nailed to the cross; not the law itself, but the record of our transgressions against God and witnessed by the law. Our sin debt. Dont take my word for it. Consult a concordance.

Ask anyone why Jesus died on the cross. I guarantee you 100 Christians in 100 will say "To take away the sins of the world." He did not die to take the law away. He died to take our sin on himself, thereby exonerating us. It is about imputed righteousness. Justification -- to be declared legally righteous. If there is no more record of offenses against God's law, then there is no evidence to accuse us before the Holy Judge. No evidence, no conviction.

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law -Romans 3:31

Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek scriptures > English every time.

Hebrews 10:26-29

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Go ahead and sin willfully like there is no law. Go ahead and do despite unto grace. We are held to a higher accountability than those under Moses Law. If we conduct our lives without regard to the moral commandments of God, we are counting His precious blood as a vain thing, dishonoring the Spirit of grace and that is not something I want to have to give an account for.

 

[Drew]

Paul never said that the Law was abolished. All the verses that seem to indicate that he did are taken out of context.

Paul is quite clear in Ephesians 2 - the law is abolished:

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit

Note verse 15 - how is this not a statement that the Law of Moses has been abolished? Note the structure of the argument here - Paul is clearly saying that God has done something to break down the wall between Jew and Gentile and bring them together in one family.

One way to do this is to abolish the Law of Moses which was, in the first place, established to separate Jew from Gentile:

'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me [c] because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

And Paul indeed tells us - the Jew and the Gentile have been brought together by abolishing the Law of Moses - the very thing that otherwise divides humanity into two camps: Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Drew]

For example, in Romans 7 he is saying that the law of sin and death no longer has power over us.

Paul says this in Romans 7:

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

How much clearer could Paul be - the Jew has been released from the Law.

If you read the whole context, including chapters 6 and 8, you will see that he says that the Law is holy just and good and that he delights in following it.

True enough - but just because the law is a good thing doesn't mean that it automatically lasts forever.

In chapter 7 Paul mentions 3 or 4 different laws. It is the law of sin that he says is abolished, not the God's Law.

No. As per the material I posted above, the Jew is no longer under the Law of Moses.

 

[Strangelove]

So can I fornicate with an unmarried woman as much as I want and still go to Heaven as long as I love Jesus and the woman?

((**groan**))

NO. Because you'd be doing something that you KNOW Jesus hates. Therefore breaking the 1st of His commandments.....to love God!

 

[Strangelove]

But what I was talking to strangelove about was that you cannot be saved if you go around breaking MORAL laws frivolously as it shows no conversion of the heart and no love for God.

What?

We are saved by the free Grace of God by faith in Jesus Christ. NOT BY WORKS!!

The fact that I TRY to be moral with my behaviour is the fruit of that Grace.

Are you a sinner Ashua?

 

[Strangelove]

I suspect that a case can be made that whoever made this statement was thinking in terms of a short-term concession to Jews who were having difficulty accepting that their written code had been abolished.

Exactly. Paul was being diplomatic by saying...ok....we'll givem a minor food law just to keep them sweet.

 

[Ashua]

((**groan**))

NO. Because you'd be doing something that you KNOW Jesus hates. Therefore breaking the 1st of His commandments.....to love God!

Exactly.... That's all I have been saying.

So why are you saying its okay to break one of his commandments (doing something that he hates) but not another?

 

[Ashua]

What?

We are saved by the free Grace of God by faith in Jesus Christ. NOT BY WORKS!!

The fact that I TRY to be moral with my behaviour is the fruit of that Grace.

Are you a sinner Ashua?

Of course I'm a sinner ---but I don't sin as wantonly as those who feel commandments are void.

Your first two sentences are compatible with what I have been saying.

I feel that morality is consistent with God's law. I am preaching morality as defined by his law which is a fruit of grace and not to do with salvation. If you have your own brand of morality then thats your business, but I fail to ascertain how you say you TRY to be moral while denying the value of the commandments.

 

[Ashua]

Exactly. Paul was being diplomatic by saying...ok....we'll givem a minor food law just to keep them sweet.

Now we have an example of a major error. You guys are making assumptions without concrete evidence to lay claim. So Paul, who just rebuked Peter for his conduct with the gentiles when the believing Jews appeared now decides to go ahead and go against his convictions concerning the ministry of the gentiles just to appease the Jews? So he felt by making them not eat blood and things strangled at the dinner table as to not offend the jews, it was cool if it was pork? That's quite a stretch.

New International Version (©1984)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Don't ever think that I came to set aside Moses' Teachings or the Prophets. I didn't come to set them aside but to make them come true.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Bible in Basic English
Let there be no thought that I have come to put an end to the law or the prophets. I have not come for destruction, but to make complete.

Darby Bible Translation
Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.

Weymouth New Testament
"Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion.

Young's Literal Translation
'Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;

Μὴ νομίσητε ὅτι ἦλθον καταλῦσαι τὸν νόμον, ἢ τοὺς προφήτας οὐκ ἦλθον καταλῦσαι, ἀλλὰ πληρῶσαι

καταλύω
katalyō
Destroy, Abolish, Annul
1) to dissolve, disunite

a) (what has been joined together), to destroy, demolish

b) metaph. to overthrow i.e. render vain, deprive of success, bring to naught

1) to subvert, overthrow

a) of institutions, forms of government, laws, etc., to deprive of force, annul, abrogate, discard

c) of travellers, to halt on a journey, to put up, lodge (the figurative expression originating in the circumstance that, to put up for the night, the straps and packs of the beasts of burden are unbound and taken off; or, more correctly from the fact that the traveller's garments, tied up when he is on the journey, are unloosed at it end)


For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


You have a serious problem when you say he Abolished in his flesh the law and the commandments.

The text says he abolished the ENMITY of the Law which caused division between Jew and gentile.

Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[Strangelove]

Exactly.... That's all I have been saying.

So why are you saying its okay to break one of his commandments (doing something that he hates) but not another?

Whats the "another" that you refer to?

 

[Strangelove]

Of course I'm a sinner ---but I don't sin as wantonly as those who feel commandments are void.

Your first two sentences are compatible with what I have been saying.

I feel that morality is consistent with God's law. I am preaching morality as defined by his law which is a fruit of grace and not to do with salvation. If you have your own brand of morality then thats your business, but I fail to ascertain how you say you TRY to be moral while denying the value of the commandments.

Who's denying?

I value Jesus' 2 commandments above all else.....:

 

[Strangelove]

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You have a serious problem when you say he Abolished in his flesh the law and the commandments.

Ok Bub. Now your recycling verses that people have already addressed. So your basically out of ammo.

It's clear you are just determined to Judaize and tempt us back to old law.

No probs. You can keep going all you want. Real Christians will stand up to your nonsense. You will be judged for this by God. Repent now and He may be merciful.

Heres my explanation of that verse AGAIN. A rebuttel that, by the way, you never addressed.

Jesus was countering the Pharisees corruption of Moses and the prophets AS USUAL. they had set themselves up as authorities over the Law, and had even taen to deciding which of God's laws were worthy, tossing some that weren't and adding others that were.they were guilty of teaching people i was okay to break some commandments. it's a entirely different context from not living up to Moses (which we can not do):

Mathhew 5
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible describes it with minimum fuss>>>

Whosoever therefore shall break - Shall violate or disobey.
One of these least commandments - The Pharisees, it is probable, divided the precepts of the law into lesser and greater, teaching that they who violated the former were guilty of a trivial offence only. See Matthew 23:23. Christ teaches that in his kingdom they who make this distinction, or who taught that any laws of God might be violated with impunity, should be called least; while they should be held in high regard who observed all the laws of God without distinction.

Shall be called least - That is, shall be least. See Matthew 5:9. The meaning of this passage seems to be this: in the kingdom of heaven, that is, in the kingdom of the Messiah, or in the church which he is about to establish (see the notes at Matthew 3:2), he that breaks the least of these commandments shall be in no esteem, or shall not be regarded as a proper religious teacher. The Pharisees, by dividing the law into greater and lesser precepts, made no small part of it void by their traditions and divisions, Matthew 23:23; Matthew 15:3-6. Jesus says that in his kingdom all this vain division and tradition would cease. Such divisions and distinctions would be a small matter. He that attempted it should be the least of all. People would be engaged in yielding obedience to all the law of God without any such vain distinctions.

Shall be called great - He that teaches that all the law of God is binding, and that the whole of it should be obeyed, without attempting to specify what is most important, shall be a teacher worthy of his office, and shall be called great

If you think we should be following written laws, please post a list of them so we can all be good christian zionists. Thanks.


:::::::::::::::::::::: Doc.

 

[Ashua]

Whats the "another" that you refer to?

another commandment. You said breaking the commandment against fornication is NOT okay because Jesus hates fornication. So why is t okay to break something else that there is a commandment against doing given that Jesus hates that which is against his commandments as you have just cited for your reasoning behind forbidding fornication.

 

[Ashua]

Who's denying?

I value Jesus' 2 commandments above all else.....:

How do you keep those 2 commandments "with all your heart and soul and might"?

 

[Ashua]

Ok Bub. Now your recycling verses that people have already addressed. So your basically out of ammo.

It's clear you are just determined to Judaize and tempt us back to old law.

No probs. You can keep going all you want. Real Christians will stand up to your nonsense. You will be judged for this by God. Repent now and He may be merciful.

Heres my explanation of that verse AGAIN. A rebuttel that, by the way, you never addressed.



If you think we should be following written laws, please post a list of them so we can all be good christian zionists. Thanks.


:::::::::::::::::::::: Doc.

Please do not get me started on scripture you have not addressed. I have addressed this. Theres nothing to say besides you are misinterpreting/twisting.

I just posted that bit because it came after the first verse I posted many versions for. It was to keep context, not to recycle.

Why havent you addressed what Jesus said about not coming to abolish the law? I gave you how many quotes and greek language and so fourth and you ignore the very words of CHRIST on the matter and also that of Paul when he said we shouldn't do away with the law JUST BECAUSE WE ARE UNDER GRACE. You ignored the words of James and the verse in Hebrews. You ignore the definition of sin in context of the commandments. Go and sin no more. Not go and do what you want because you are not under the law anymore.

I'm not saying anyone "has" to keep any commandments beyond those which directly affect our dealings with one another and love of God. I am, however saying that because we don't have to, doesnt mean we shouldnt. As you used the word earlier, I believe it is "recommended".

Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

ἀνομίαν
Anomia

Translated: Lawlessness

Greek A = without

Nomos= Law

1) the condition of without law

a) because ignorant of it

b) because of violating it

2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness


I DO NOT SPEAK OF MYSELF. WHAT I SAY, IS FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES. USE CONCORDANCES. I AM NOT TRYING TO DECEIVE ANYONE. IF YOU FIND ME IN ERROR, MAKE A BETTER CASE THAN STRANGELOVE IS MAKING. I AM ONLY RECITING SCRIPTURE.

 

[Strangelove]

another commandment. You said breaking the commandment against fornication is NOT okay because Jesus hates fornication. So why is t okay to break something else that there is a commandment against doing given that Jesus hates that which is against his commandments as you have just cited for your reasoning behind forbidding fornication.

Ok so name another commandment that you think we Christians need to keep and I'll show you how loving God and loving others cover it.

Infact name every single law that we need to keep. I've asked you about 5 times now why wont you deliver?

Come on, you must have all these laws pinned up on your wall or something otherwise how can you remember them? List them for us. All the laws.

 

[Strangelove]

How do you keep those 2 commandments "with all your heart and soul and might"?

By loving God and loving others.......



........with all my heart and soul and might.

 

[Strangelove]

Please do not get me started on scripture you have not addressed. I have addressed this. Theres nothing to say besides you are misinterpreting/twisting.

Thats it?

Why havent you addressed what Jesus said about not coming to abolish the law?

Ya...what He was saying is.....because we got big love for God and everyone else...it's inevitable that all moral law will be kept because you just CANT SIN if your lovvin. Seriously a 5 year old can get this but your having so much difficulty.

OR you are a Christion Zionist who is knowingly trying to Judaize the flock. In preperation for the coming Noahide ace in the hole.

Go and sin no more. Not go and do what you want because you are not under the law anymore.

I will go out and do what I want..../////// as long as the law is written on my heart in the blood of Christ then I will be actively repenting against sin. You should repent from this Pharisee fan boy behaviour and maybe God will be merciful.

I'm not saying anyone "has" to keep any commandments beyond those which directly affect our dealings with one another and love of God. I am, however saying that because we don't have to, doesnt mean we shouldnt.

Oh please. Your suggesting we obey written OT law. You are a transparent Judaizer. Repent.

I DO NOT SPEAK OF MYSELF. WHAT I SAY, IS FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES. USE CONCORDANCES. I AM NOT TRYING TO DECEIVE ANYONE. IF YOU FIND ME IN ERROR, MAKE A BETTER CASE THAN STRANGELOVE IS MAKING. I AM ONLY RECITING SCRIPTURE.

OK DUDE!!




.......oh and I am Strangelove.

 

[smaller]

Any and ALL commandments in the entire Bible MUST be followed by all Christian believers.

Where any will divert from that and disagree is only based on their misunderstandings of same.

Paul advised us as to 'how this is and can be' quite succinctly, and INCLUDES herein, part of the 10 Commandments and also includes if there is ANY COMMAND, how it is to be understood:

Romans 13:
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now many will come and say LOOK HERE at this FLESH LAW and LOOK HERE at that FLESH LAW. How is that LOVE? These are viewing ANY COMMANDMENT wrong. Paul has advised us how to both understand AND DO ANY COMMANDMENT. There is no exception to ANY commandment. They ALL mean the SAME THING, even if one is untrained as to HOW to 'get it.' Paul simplified the matters for us greatly and as such EVERY JOT AND TITTLE does stand SECURE and EFFECTIVE.

Denying the LAW, the 10 or ANY commandment is FALSE. Gods Laws in ANY commandment do NOT have to be thrown out or away, but simply understood in the way Paul taught.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Vic C.]

Oh please. Your suggesting we obey written OT law. You are a transparent Judaizer. Repent.

No probs. You can keep going all you want. Real Christians will stand up to your nonsense. You will be judged for this by God. Repent now and He may be merciful.

Doc, no need for comments like this. They are not in the right spirit.

Smaller:

Any and ALL commandments in the entire Bible MUST be followed by all Christian believers.

There are 613 in the OT alone. Do you follow all 613? I'm certain you don't. But this thread is about the Royal 10; discussing the merits of the other commandments are for another topic, if you care to defend your statement above.