Is the Ten Commandment Abolished?

[Elijah674]

Yup. I agree with most people here. And I'm glad that the majority understand and are firm in their belief that all we need to do is follow Jesus' 2 commandments.

I would go as far as to say that the Gospels are all you need for your salvation.

(I've read parts of the OT and reference it often but the old laws held within it are of no consequence for us Christians)

Matt.4

[1] Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
[2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
[3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[Strangelove]

Matt.4

[1] Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
[2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
[3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Phew. Glad you posted that

Lucky that line doesnt say :::

It is written, Man shall not live BY CHRISTS COMMANDMENTS ALONE , but by every LAW that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

Thanks Elijah!

 

[Elijah674]

? Whats that got to do with the legitamacy of the talmud?

Not much guy! The Eternal Covenant of the Godhead is Fact, not Jewish Tradition! Heb. 13:20.
And what Abe was [Documented] as doing from his start of life was OBEYING all of the VERBAL TEACHINGS from God to him! Now we are back on track, the Ten Commandments are Eternal! Isa. 8:20

An NO, they were not written down + spoken as was later done in Exod. 20. Even note the forth Command with the Word REMEMBER! Remember from where? (from the start of mans life on earth! Psalms 135:13's BIRTHDAY of Earth) But still were Eternally in God Goverment known as the ROYAL LAW of James 2:8-12. And ROYAL LAW is not Jewish tradition! (they were not even on the scene as yet)

And one more thing FORUM: Rom. 13 deals with only Ceasars Second part of Gods Law, [NOT THE FIRST FOUR COMMANDMENTS!] Acts 5:27-*29) (* high/light!) Never was or is Ceasar to be involved in one's WORSHIP of their God!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

how can paul use the law agaisnt the homosexuals and others sin listed in the nt book romans 1 if we dont need to know the ot? paul a jew and the minister to the jew wouldnt make that mistake.

the law serves a purpose for both jew and gentile, for the jew its to point out that he cant be good enough, and the gentile what the standard was for the jew and that he the gentile follows that he cant make it either. both must then look to the cross.

Are you telling me that Paul is talking about Gods 10 Commandments being a curse??
If so, you best check out Gal. 2:11-13 to see what 'the subject' being addressed was about? 'of the circumcism'! Then 16-18 was still pointing to this same topic!

And if that is not clear, read verse 11 for where Paul called Peter down? The reference is seen in Acts 5:1-2 & has absolutely NOTHING to do with God Royal Law or ten commandments written in stone!

Notice the verse:
"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said,] Except ye 'be circumcised' after the MANNER OF MOSES, [YE CANNOT BE SAVED]." Can you even suggest that, that was found in the 10 Commandments of God???

But not only was this the Subject, but verse 5 also includes 'other's than just Peter' as well, and take notice that it C-L-E-A-R-L-Y
states in this 'inspired' verse.. COMMAND them to keep 'THE LAW OF Moses'!

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them [AND] to command them to keep the [Law of Moses]."

It goes on to say that the apostles and the elders came together to consider this matter! What matter was that? READ IT AGAIN until you get it right! (no offence meant!) But you, my friends seem to be just as dense as they?

You remind me of Peter's Vision of Acts 10, with the reams & reams of PhD stuff penned! And it seems that most of these come out with tainted understanding.

Now: What were the Laws of Moses? Paul stated that:

'But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are [found sinners], is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For [if I build the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor].'
[This verse] tells of the Universal Covenant 10 commandment law. For where 'NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION. (Rom. 4:15) How could Paul say we could be 'found sinners' if there were [now], no law?

OK: Back in Deut. 31 were see Moses with a LAW contained in a book. Called the [Book of the Law!] We also see it placed in the side of the Ark of God! Not inside of the Ark of God, where His 10 Commandments Royal Universal Covenant was & IS LOCATED!!

It was the law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross! [ALL of the CEREMONIAL LAWS] that pointed to Christ's death on the Cross. These were all added because of sin. Gal. 3:19. What were these law?? God does not leave us ignorant if we will search as He commanded. (2 Tim. 3:16-*Matt. 4:4-Matt. 28:20)

Paul also includes Col. 2:9-20 & Eph. 2:12-15 with these Laws of 'ordinances' and 'holy day' and 'the new moons, and the Sabbath day's'! These 'holy days' are the Sabbath of Moses law. NEVER ARE THEY THE 4TH COMMANDMENT OF THE TEN!!

Notice Deut 30:10 for the [plural] of commandment's'! "If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep [his commandments] and His statues which are written [in THIS BOOK of the law, ..." (both the statues & these commandments are written in the BOOK OF THE LAW)

Again take note in Deut. 31:9 & verses 24-26. And note verse 26 closes with .. "Take [this book of the law] and [put it in the 'side of the Ark'] of the covenant of the Lord (notice these Words, & the Col. 2:14's Words of 'Against us') your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee".

And Paul's choice of Words.. Sabbath day's' plural, feast day's' plural, holy day's' plural? We even see in Acts 12:1-5 that Herod had James killed & Peter was locked up, and it was the Jews of old Israel that were keeping [this Feast Day] that you all keep today, you call it EASTER! (verse 3-4 ibid..) And you say that you are.. 'cursed with a curse'. Gal. 1:6-9!

You can understand Paul if you become the spiritual Jew of Rom. 2:28-38! Born Again.
Notice again the Law of Moses!! 2 Chron.. 8:13
"Even after a certain rate [every day], offering according to the [*commandments of Moses], on [the Sabbath's], and on [the new moon's'], and on the [solemn feast's'], (Easter, huh?) three times in the year, even the [feast of unleavened bread] and the [feast of week's'] and the feasts of [tabernacle's']."
These laws ALL pointed to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin's of the world. When the Vail rent from top to bottom by an unseen hand, these laws of Moses were FINISHED, (Gal. 3:19) and the way was made into the Most Holy Place itself! Here is where the Ark of God was seen that had His 'TESTIMONY inside of His Ark! See Rev. 11:19.

NOW: Bottom line! Notice real good.
"And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a SIGN between [Me and you], that ye [may know that I am the Lord your God]. Notwithstanding the children rebelled [against me: they walked not in my 'STATUES' ... WHEREFORE I GAVE THEM [ALSO] STATUES THAT WERE NOT GOOD, AND JUDGEMENTS WHEREBY THEY SHOULD *NOT LIVE.." Eze. 20:verse 20 & verse 25.
What did that say?? Read it AGAIN!

Just realize that 'just perhaps' you think that you understand Paul? (smile!)

---Elijah

 

[Ashua]

Ok now I know that you are just determined to Judaize Christians on this forum because you keep going back to this non-sensical argument that following Jesus' 2 commandments JUST ISN"T GOOD ENOUGH!!

CHRISTIANS WHO TRULY LOVE GOD AND LOVE OTHERS WILL REPENT FROM SIN.

FULL STOP. PERIOD. CASE CLOSED.

Now Ashua.....repent against this talk of keeping the old law and maybe God will be merciful.

You are EXACTLY the kind of person Paul was warning the Galatians about.

It just amazes me.....and it amazed Paul how you can forget so easily where you get your Grace from. By talking of the old law you preach another Gospel. Why do ye tempt God by doing such things?? Why do you risk being accursed?

1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and
would pervert the gospel of Christ.
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

By the revelation of Jesus Christ....Amen.​

So can I fornicate with an unmarried woman as much as I want and still go to Heaven as long as I love Jesus and the woman?

 

[Drew]

So can I fornicate with an unmarried woman as much as I want and still go to Heaven as long as I love Jesus and the woman?

I think there is a flaw in this line of reasoning.

Many who believe that the Law of Moses remains in force as a prescriptive code to guide behaviour seem to think that without an actual written code telling us to not to fornicate, we are therefore free to fornicate.

Nothing is further from the truth. We now have the Spirit to guide us, not the written code:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

And the Spirit will most assuredly not "take kindly" to fornication.

 

[Ashua]

I think there is a flaw in this line of reasoning.

Many who believe that the Law of Moses remains in force as a prescriptive code to guide behaviour seem to think that without an actual written code telling us to not to fornicate, we are therefore free to fornicate.

Nothing is further from the truth. We now have the Spirit to guide us, not the written code:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

And the Spirit will most assuredly not "take kindly" to fornication.

I never said we needed to keep Moses Law to be saved. I was the first to say that Acts clearly disproves that.
I was, however saying that if we love God, we keep his commandments. John says as much.

I never once said the Torah was required for salvation. I said keeping his commandments optionally was a way to display love to God.

Strangelove insists on wresting the words of Paul in his critique of me. He said we do not need to keep any commandments except to love. I say honoring his commandments is an expression of love. He said I was exactly the type of person that Paul was referring to in Galatians. I was going to take a nice little bit out of Galatians that people who break certain LAWS will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

I showed him that the two greatest commandments are direct quotes from the Law of Moses and that these laws only summarize the rest of them.

I showed him a place in acts where gentiles specifically are required to abstain from consuming blood and the flesh of strangled things.

I have showed him where Paul says that in Romans "What then? Shall we make void the law through faith?" Forbid and again he says: "Shall we sin that grace will abound?" And which of the commandments of God can you name that are not profitable and good? Which commandment is detrimental? What thing did God at any time command that is harmful to us? And if you cannot name one, why am I yet judged for recommending --not insisting that others walk after the very same?

Commandment keeping is not of the same faculty as salvation. That doesnt mean keeping commandments is optional.

If your earthly father commands you to do things and you despise his commandment, he will chasten you. If you love and honor his will, he will reward you. This is how it is with God.

Paul personally kept the Law and not just the "moral Law" that I was referring to, but the whole Law of Moses. He wasnt keeping it to escape hellfire. He was keeping it because it pleased him to choose the things which are approved of his will and are more excellent.

I'm not saying you have to keep the sabbath day to be saved. Im not saying God will withdraw his love from you if you do not keep kosher. All Im saying is you cannot love like the devil and except to be received as a son.

 

[Elijah674]

I think there is a flaw in this line of reasoning.

Many who believe that the Law of Moses remains in force as a prescriptive code to guide behaviour seem to think that without an actual written code telling us to not to fornicate, we are therefore free to fornicate.

Nothing is further from the truth. We now have the Spirit to guide us, not the written code:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

And the Spirit will most assuredly not "take kindly" to fornication.

Are we teaching that the Holy Spirit did not guide one even before the 10 Cmmandments were written in stone?? A thought comes into mind at this end, what was Lucifer a Covering Cherub over in Heavens Temple?? Or to ask it clearer,(??) what was Inside of the Ark? Rev. 11:19, Heb. 8:5 + Ex. 25:8-9 & verse 21-22.

You do rightfully say: 'And the Spirit will most assuredly not "take kindly" to fornication' And the Spirit also Inspired in James 2: 8-12 that if even one commandment is broken, all are broken.

--Elijah

 

[Ashua]

I'll add that we are commanded to be living sacrifices and to die to ourselves that we may live to Christ.

Subjecting oneself to the commandments in an attitude of meekness and not after the deadness of the unbelieving jews is to "deny yourself and follow Christ"


No one was -required- to take a Nazarite vow in the old testament. Those who did, however WILLINGLY SUBJECTED THEMSELVES to the vow, did so in dedicating themselves to the LORD. Its not about trying to be righteous. Its just about making a special dedication. Sacrificing personal freedom from the law as a token of affection. NOT as a means to attain salvation. Why should I live like the "unbelieving gentiles?" We are called to separation from the world. The Law, was in part given to Israel as a means to separate them to the LORD as a "peculiar people". So, I find it acceptable for one to take up a "peculiar walk" in a WILLING spirit. To "give yourself" to God by denying your personal pursuits.

And as for the argument that adultery was a known sin before the Law, therefore the removal of the Law does not void the wrongness of adultery... I will agree. However, then you have the issue of unclean animals being known when Noah built his ark.

Not saying we HAVE to keep kosher. Just seeing a hole in that argument in the way you are using it.

But what I was talking to strangelove about was that you cannot be saved if you go around breaking MORAL laws frivolously as it shows no conversion of the heart and no love for God.

 

[Elijah674]

Phew. Glad you posted that

Lucky that line doesnt say :::

It is written, Man shall not live BY CHRISTS COMMANDMENTS ALONE , but by every LAW that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

Thanks Elijah!

???? 'that line' You best read the verse of whom Christ was conversing with! (satan)Then take a check if you know how to? to where the verse came from that Christ quoted. Need help? See O.T. Deut. 6:16. And while you are in the Chapter, you might get back on the [TEN COMMANDMENTS] subject by reading from verse 1-9 & then came Christ's documentation of 'YE SHALL NOT TEMP THE LORD YOUR GOD'!

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

I never once said the Torah was required for salvation.

I do not believe that anything in my post would lead the reader to conclude that I was suggesting that you, or anyone, was claiming that Torah observance was required for salvation.

I said keeping his commandments optionally was a way to display love to God.

Well, let's be careful: Paul is quite clear that the time of applicability of the written code - the Torah - is passed. If the Torah is really still in force, why aren't we stoning adulterers? This is just as much a part of the Torah as the 10 commandments.

I think this whole area is very murky. Paul clearly tells us that we are to live "in the Spirit" and not in "the way of the written code". So I am quite sure Paul is saying that, as of the cross, the informing source for morality is the testimony of the Spirit, not the Law.

Now, of course, Jesus gave us commandments that were not part of the Torah. So I could legitimately argue "yes, we are to follow Jesus' commandments, but the Torah is another kettle of fish".

Besides, the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only. So on what basis do you think the Gentile should obey the Law of Moses.

I was going to take a nice little bit out of Galatians that people who break certain LAWS will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Are you sure that Paul refers to the Law of Moses there - I do not think that he does.

I showed him that the two greatest commandments are direct quotes from the Law of Moses and that these laws only summarize the rest of them.

But that is not a mandate to keep the Law of Moses in all its details. If I say "love your neighbour" is the summary of the Law, and if I have the Spirit to direct me as to what constitutes a loving act, then I am "set'. I agree, though, this is a tricky area.

I showed him a place in acts where gentiles specifically are required to abstain from consuming blood and the flesh of strangled things.

I suspect that a case can be made that whoever made this statement was thinking in terms of a short-term concession to Jews who were having difficulty accepting that their written code had been abolished.

 

[Drew]

Greetings Ashua and others:

I think the present status of the "Law of Moses" is very difficult to discern. Just so you can know where I am coming from, here is a summary of my position / thoughts on the Law:

1. The Law of Moses was only ever given to Jews (and those Gentiles who were otherwise integrated into their community). So if the Law of Moses is to be authoritative over us "Gentiles", we need to make a Biblical case that either (1) Gentiles are now members of ethnic Jewry; or (2) the law now applies to all. I think neither of these cases can be made. So this is one reason to doubt that the Law of Moses is still in force;

2. There are a number of points where it becomes clear that Paul sees "two laws". The best example is seen in Romans 2 where Paul says that Gentiles who seem to be doing the things prescribed by the Torah are doing "a law of their own". This "duality" is important because it gives a basis for agreeing with statements about the abolition of the Law of Moses (a clear one is given in Ephesians 2), and yet agreeing with statements about affirmation of the Law, such as the one at Romans 3:31. In short, if there are "two laws", then we can the Law of Moses as being abolished, and this other mysterious 2nd law as being affirmed.

3. Paul forcefully argues that the Law of Moses functioned to keep Jew and Gentile distinct and that, since God now wants that distinctness dissolved, the Law of Moses has to go.

4. Paul also argues (in Romans 5 and 7, and 1 Corinthians 15) that the Law of Moses has the dark purpose of intensifying and empowering sin. Yes, I really do mean this. And there is every reason to think that the need for this dark function has come to an end.

5. Paul argues that the "Spirit" essentially replaces the Law of Moses as the guide for how to live.

As you can see, I lean strongly to believing that the Law of Moses has been abolished, but there is now a mysterious "2nd Torah" in force, that is to be obeyed by Jew and Gentile alike.

Look forward to more dialog....

 

[Drew]

Are we teaching that the Holy Spirit did not guide one even before the 10 Cmmandments were written in stone??

Excellent question. I will have to think about that.

 

[Elijah674]

I do not believe that anything in my post would lead the reader to conclude that I was suggesting that you, or anyone, was claiming that Torah observance was required for salvation.


Well, let's be careful: Paul is quite clear that the time of applicability of the written code - the Torah - is passed. If the Torah is really still in force, why aren't we stoning adulterers? This is just as much a part of the Torah as the 10 commandments.

I think this whole area is very murky. Paul clearly tells us that we are to live "in the Spirit" and not in "the way of the written code". So I am quite sure Paul is saying that, as of the cross, the informing source for morality is the testimony of the Spirit, not the Law.

Now, of course, Jesus gave us commandments that were not part of the Torah. So I could legitimately argue "yes, we are to follow Jesus' commandments, but the Torah is another kettle of fish".

Besides, the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only. So on what basis do you think the Gentile should obey the Law of Moses.


Are you sure that Paul refers to the Law of Moses there - I do not think that he does.


But that is not a mandate to keep the Law of Moses in all its details. If I say "love your neighbour" is the summary of the Law, and if I have the Spirit to direct me as to what constitutes a loving act, then I am "set'. I agree, though, this is a tricky area.


I suspect that a case can be made that whoever made this statement was thinking in terms of a short-term concession to Jews who were having difficulty accepting that their written code had been abolished.

You both talk of the Torah? I think that you both should use terms that you & others understand. The Law that God Penned is NOT THE Torah. Isa. 8:20 finds His [TESTIMONY] penned by Holy Men with all 66 Books. The Jer. 17:5 ones (good or bad) consider the first five books as the Torah. And that leaves a great VASTNESS never understood by these Jer 17:5. men of uninspired flesh. Such as Gen. 26:5 DOCUMENTATION of pre/truth of both [LAW + TESTIMONY] that is not recorded good enough for 'them' ones of Jer. 17:5 to see. But Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 ARE FACT from heaven on!

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

You both talk of the Torah? I think that you both should use terms that you & others understand. The Law that God Penned is NOT THE Torah.

Some New Testament scholars use the term "Torah" interchangeably with the term "The Law of Moses". So presumably some experts think the term "Torah" can be used as I have used it.

But I am happy to go with "The Law of Moses" to avoid controversy.

 

[Nathan]

Hbr 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

Hbr 10:2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

Hbr 10:3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.





Hbr 10:9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Hbr 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.





Hbr 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Hbr 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

Hbr 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"

Hbr 10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

Hbr 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.



I might be jumping off the wall here but the law of God is written on our hearts. If God said He would write it their, then it is there. Therefore.....



1Jo 3:18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

1Jo 3:19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him;

1Jo 3:20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;

1Jo 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

1Jo 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

 

[Drew]

Let me add this: I have been persuaded (based on the arguments of NT Wright, at least as I understand them) that Paul never actually "figured out" the sense in which the "Law of Moses" persists to this day.

In other words, while I suggest it is clear that the written code of the Law of Moses is seen as "abolished" by Paul, it is equally clear that he writes of a mysterious other law being established.

But if Wright is correct, as I read him anyway, Paul never tells us what this law actually consists in. Perhaps "we the church" need to figure that out for ourselves.

 

[Theofilus]

Paul never said that the Law was abolished. All the verses that seem to indicate that he did are taken out of context. For example, in Romans 7 he is saying that the law of sin and death no longer has power over us. If you read the whole context, including chapters 6 and 8, you will see that he says that the Law is holy just and good and that he delights in following it. In chapter 7 Paul mentions 3 or 4 different laws. It is the law of sin that he says is abolished, not the God's Law. Also, throughout the New Testament, wherever you see someone claiming that Paul, the other apostles or Jesus himself contradicted the Law, it is always the enemies of the Gospel that are talking.

 

[jasoncran]

Are you telling me that Paul is talking about Gods 10 Commandments being a curse??
If so, you best check out Gal. 2:11-13 to see what 'the subject' being addressed was about? 'of the circumcism'! Then 16-18 was still pointing to this same topic!

And if that is not clear, read verse 11 for where Paul called Peter down? The reference is seen in Acts 5:1-2 & has absolutely NOTHING to do with God Royal Law or ten commandments written in stone!

Notice the verse:
"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said,] Except ye 'be circumcised' after the MANNER OF MOSES, [YE CANNOT BE SAVED]." Can you even suggest that, that was found in the 10 Commandments of God???

But not only was this the Subject, but verse 5 also includes 'other's than just Peter' as well, and take notice that it C-L-E-A-R-L-Y
states in this 'inspired' verse.. COMMAND them to keep 'THE LAW OF Moses'!

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them [AND] to command them to keep the [Law of Moses]."

It goes on to say that the apostles and the elders came together to consider this matter! What matter was that? READ IT AGAIN until you get it right! (no offence meant!) But you, my friends seem to be just as dense as they?

You remind me of Peter's Vision of Acts 10, with the reams & reams of PhD stuff penned! And it seems that most of these come out with tainted understanding.

Now: What were the Laws of Moses? Paul stated that:

'But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are [found sinners], is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For [if I build the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor].'
[This verse] tells of the Universal Covenant 10 commandment law. For where 'NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION. (Rom. 4:15) How could Paul say we could be 'found sinners' if there were [now], no law?

OK: Back in Deut. 31 were see Moses with a LAW contained in a book. Called the [Book of the Law!] We also see it placed in the side of the Ark of God! Not inside of the Ark of God, where His 10 Commandments Royal Universal Covenant was & IS LOCATED!!

It was the law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross! [ALL of the CEREMONIAL LAWS] that pointed to Christ's death on the Cross. These were all added because of sin. Gal. 3:19. What were these law?? God does not leave us ignorant if we will search as He commanded. (2 Tim. 3:16-*Matt. 4:4-Matt. 28:20)

Paul also includes Col. 2:9-20 & Eph. 2:12-15 with these Laws of 'ordinances' and 'holy day' and 'the new moons, and the Sabbath day's'! These 'holy days' are the Sabbath of Moses law. NEVER ARE THEY THE 4TH COMMANDMENT OF THE TEN!!

Notice Deut 30:10 for the [plural] of commandment's'! "If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep [his commandments] and His statues which are written [in THIS BOOK of the law, ..." (both the statues & these commandments are written in the BOOK OF THE LAW)

Again take note in Deut. 31:9 & verses 24-26. And note verse 26 closes with .. "Take [this book of the law] and [put it in the 'side of the Ark'] of the covenant of the Lord (notice these Words, & the Col. 2:14's Words of 'Against us') your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee".

And Paul's choice of Words.. Sabbath day's' plural, feast day's' plural, holy day's' plural? We even see in Acts 12:1-5 that Herod had James killed & Peter was locked up, and it was the Jews of old Israel that were keeping [this Feast Day] that you all keep today, you call it EASTER! (verse 3-4 ibid..) And you say that you are.. 'cursed with a curse'. Gal. 1:6-9!

You can understand Paul if you become the spiritual Jew of Rom. 2:28-38! Born Again.
Notice again the Law of Moses!! 2 Chron.. 8:13
"Even after a certain rate [every day], offering according to the [*commandments of Moses], on [the Sabbath's], and on [the new moon's'], and on the [solemn feast's'], (Easter, huh?) three times in the year, even the [feast of unleavened bread] and the [feast of week's'] and the feasts of [tabernacle's']."
These laws ALL pointed to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin's of the world. When the Vail rent from top to bottom by an unseen hand, these laws of Moses were FINISHED, (Gal. 3:19) and the way was made into the Most Holy Place itself! Here is where the Ark of God was seen that had His 'TESTIMONY inside of His Ark! See Rev. 11:19.

NOW: Bottom line! Notice real good.
"And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a SIGN between [Me and you], that ye [may know that I am the Lord your God]. Notwithstanding the children rebelled [against me: they walked not in my 'STATUES' ... WHEREFORE I GAVE THEM [ALSO] STATUES THAT WERE NOT GOOD, AND JUDGEMENTS WHEREBY THEY SHOULD *NOT LIVE.." Eze. 20:verse 20 & verse 25.
What did that say?? Read it AGAIN!

Just realize that 'just perhaps' you think that you understand Paul? (smile!)

---Elijah

lol, a gentile teaching me of hebrew lineage, i read the ot first. as i was lead to by the lord to understand where i came from. i was stating the law is good but that we are under the curses, we use the law a standard to act, not as the means of salvation otherwise why did Jesus die on the cross?

 

[Vic C.]

Let me add this: I have been persuaded (based on the arguments of NT Wright, at least as I understand them) that Paul never actually "figured out" the sense in which the "Law of Moses" persists to this day.

In other words, while I suggest it is clear that the written code of the Law of Moses is seen as "abolished" by Paul, it is equally clear that he writes of a mysterious other law being established.

But if Wright is correct, as I read him anyway, Paul never tells us what this law actually consists in. Perhaps "we the church" need to figure that out for ourselves.

I agree with Drew here ^.

I also believe that if we go back to what Bob said here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/ten-commandment-abolished-28754/index2.html#post450535

we would better understand our relationship with the Royal 10.

It was also mentioned that the Law was nailed to the cross. One may believe that if they choose, depending on the system of theology they believe. Like Drew said, what Law was Paul addressing?

Besides that, the Bible says what was nailed to the cross was the handwriting of ordinances. We are some 2,000 years removed from the time Paul wrote Colossians. This does not refer the the Law or the Royal 10. Remember, Paul is warning us of man made decrees. We see the same teachings in Ephesians.

We are no longer subject to the laws of man. Man came up with decrees describing various penalties for breaking certain laws.

The handwriting of ordinances refers to the rules and regulations made by unconverted people in their heathen worship. This is probably the correct understanding. This handwriting of ordi*nances is again referred to in verse 20. Paul asks that if the Colossians are dead with the Messiah (meaning in baptism) why do they still subject themselves to ordinances? He is here pointing out that the pagan ordinances they were at one time in obedience to are no longer binding on them. The word in the Greek is the verb dogmatizo, and means to impose dogmas upon.

Colossians 2:14 Explained!