IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Chopper]

Good afternoon all you theologians. So far I have recorded three posts indicating their theories. EDWARD: Pre-Trib Gathering. JLB: Post-Trib Gathering. TURNORBURN: Post-Trib Gathering. Now is that everyone? If there are more, like mid-tribers, better get going!

As far as JLB & ToB, is Post-trib your position?

 

[JLB]

Good afternoon all you theologians. So far I have recorded three posts indicating their theories. EDWARD: Pre-Trib Gathering. JLB: Post-Trib Gathering. TURNORBURN: Post-Trib Gathering. Now is that everyone? If there are more, like mid-tribers, better get going!

As far as JLB & ToB, is Post-trib your position?

Yes sir.

I would like you to please make note of the manifestions of the Coming of The Lord, whereby His Coming is seen by all the Tribes of the earth, as well as the brightness of His Coming actually destroying the Wicked one.

I believe everyone will see Him when He Comes.

Thank you.

JLB

 

[Chopper]

Yes sir.

I would like you to please make note of the manifestions of the Coming of The Lord, whereby His Coming is seen by all the Tribes of the earth, as well as the brightness of His Coming actually destroying the Wicked one.

I believe everyone will see Him when He Comes.

Thank you.

JLB

Thank you JLB, I have made a note of that on your record. Thank you for identifying the post-trib.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you JLB, I have made a note of that on your record. Thank you for identifying the post-trib.

Also, would "tribes" refer to Israel?

 

[turnorburn]

If you were looking for reasons as to why we believe the way we do I'll go ahead and share. I believe one of the most devastating tools the devil uses is what i call the faith crusher, come up with a doctrine, not just some could a would a should a doctrine, something sinister something with some backbone, a doctrine using "twisting" Gods word. What's going to happen to a persons faith when it "rapture" doesn't happen before that mark is issued..

"Where is the promise of his coming"

tob

*edit i just realized this might have been better to post this in that sister thread, what do you think Chopper?

 

[Chopper]

If you were looking for reasons as to why we believe the way we do I'll go ahead and share. I believe one of the most devastating tools the devil uses is what i call the faith crusher, come up with a doctrine, not just some could a would a should a doctrine, something sinister something with some backbone, a doctrine using "twisting" Gods word. What's going to happen to a persons faith when it "rapture" doesn't happen before that mark is issued..

"Where is the promise of his coming"

tob

*edit i just realized this might have been better to post this in that sister thread, what do you think Chopper?

Reasons will come later. Your post should go to sister thread, I guess. I still would like at least two more Scripture references on your post-trib position

 

[turnorburn]

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

tob

 

[JLB]

Also, would "tribes" refer to Israel?

Tribes of the earth would certainly not exclude Israel, but the phrase tribes of the earth would not exclude other nations as well.

I would think that it would primarily mean Tribes of Israel, and include the "nations" that will be surrounding Jerusalem.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

Lets look at that from Zechariah -

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced , and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn , every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain , every family apart, and their wives apart.

The Jews will mourn because the will physically see Him as their Messiah that they rejected.

The folks who are there to destroy Israel will also see Him.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Mike mentioned "lukewarm" Christians making up a local church. Who are they? Are they going to make it?

Hi Brother Chopper. There are different groups seen in heaven with Jesus at different times; John describes them starting in Revelation 4:1 of things to be hereafter from that point in time.

Basically all will arrive in the same order; the dead in Christ first, and then them of each group which are alive to meet them in the air. The qualifications are shown in the judgment of the church shown in the seven churches of Revelation Chapters Two and Three. Some are shown to have crowns while others are given a white stone, and these dependent upon our walk. I’ll leave off here fro the time being.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.[/quote]
Hi Eugene, Yes, lukewarm Christians will make it. There are several events that must occur before they do. I'll not go into that right now as this is not the time to discuss it. What I need is to have everyone, including you, to present their position, pre, mid, post, and at least six Scriptures that support their position. I hope that everyone CAN supply Scripture, if not, their position is just here-say with no real Scriptural backing.

 

[Narwhalist]

Hello Chopper. It's a bit difficult to give 6 scriptures to back my position when what I am saying is simply that the scriptures mentioned here are misinterpreted by reading the rapture into them. But I will give this a try. But first in order to back my stance on the rapture or lack of, I will reiterate something important. As I study more and more, I am more and more convinced that Revelation was written before 70 AD.
1 -The many "coming soon" and "at hand" passages (1:1, 2:16, 3:11, 22:6-20) only make sense if events matching the symbolism of Revelation were not too far in the future. The Jewish themes would make no sense after 70 A.D. - there was nothing left of the Jewish state.
2- The Beast (which most if not all scholars agree represents Rome) was ruled by its 6th head ("head" = "king" see: 17:10) which was already in existence in John's day. Of the 7 heads (kings) only one was left - by 95 A.D. Rome was long past its 7th Caesar.
3 - A 2nd Century manuscript of Revelation says it was written when Nero was Caesar (68 A.D.).
4 - There were still Judaizers in the church at that time (Rev. 2:9, 3:9) - impossible after 70A.D.
5 - The temple is apparently still standing in chapter 11.
6 - If the temple had already been destroyed, one would expect at least one mention of it somewhere.
7 - Revelation 2:2 shows that there were other apostles around - yet it is believed that all but John were dead by 70 A.D..
8 - Evidence for a massive persecution by Domitian (81-96 A.D.) is lacking.
9 - The only time there were only 7 churches in Asia was the early 60's.
10 -John was told he must prophesy again before kings (10:11) . . . he would have been over 90 if the late date is correct. Stories of his actions after being released from Patmos are difficult to reconcile with an aged man.

One scripture which has been associated with the rapture is Matthew 24. Let's look at this chapter of Matthew. We'll go on to Matthew 24:3 when the disciples ask Jesus the questions "when will THIS happen and when will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? So first we must look at what the disciples refer to as THIS in the first part of the question. Jesus had just finished telling them that "not one stone HERE will be left on another, every one will be thrown down." Where is HERE? Well Jesus had just left the temple when the disciples came upon Him. So, Jesus was talking about the temple before it was destroyed in 70AD and warning the disciples of it's imminent destruction. Jesus then warns about false teachers and the beginning of birth pains of the end times in Matthew 24:4-8. The next paragraph (Matthew 24:9-12) talks about persecution for following Jesus, and those who will turn away from Him due to this persecution. He says "those who stand firm until the end will be saved." He's talking about those who persevere to the end during the destruction of this temple and of Jerusalem that is coming. Matthew 24:15-22 are key. What is Jesus saying? We must also then look at Luke 21:20-28. In Matthew is uses the term abomination that causes desolation. What does this mean? Well if you read the parallel scripture Lule 21:20 it says "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that desolation is near. So, basically, Matthew 24:15-22 is talking about the end of the temple and Israel. Matthew 24:23-28 warns again against false Messiahs. Now we go on to Matthew 24:29 which speaks of a tribulation. What tribulation? The tribulation that just occurs during the destruction of the temple and Israel in 70AD. So after this tribulation what happens - well "The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken." A similar metaphor was used in Joel 3:15 signifying the judgment on the nations that attacked Israel. I believe Jesus used a similar metaphor to depict a judgment that will fall on all nations that took part in the destruction of Israel. Matthew 24:30-31 uses another judgment metaphor, "coming in the clouds." The believers will gather and continue to spread the gospel. The critical passage is Matthew 24:32-35 where Jesus says THIS generation shall not pass until all these things have passed. Jesus means THIS generation, not another generation in the future. Now we come to Matthew 24:36-44. So many times I have heard about how this scripture talks of a rapture. Two men on the field, one is taken and one is left.. Two women grinding in a mill, one is taken and one is left. Sounds like a rapture except that Jesus compared these times to the times of Noah. During Noah's time they were all taken but didn't know it until it happened, and only Noah's family was left. So, the ones taken were the unbelievers and those who were lost and the ones remaining were the believers during Noah's time and the current time Jesus speaks of. This is the opposite of what is supposed to happen in the rapture, when believers are taken and unbelievers are left behind. So, no, this scripture does not refer to a rapture. These scripture also tell the disciples to beware for only God will know when the Son of Man will come down in judgment (and He did in 70 AD when Israel and the temple were done for).
I will post some more scriptures a little later.

 

[Chopper]

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

tob

Thank you tob, Between you and JLB you are all set for Scriptures....Good job.

 

[Chopper]

Sorry..

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

tob

Thank you.

 

[Chopper]

Hello Chopper. It's a bit difficult to give 6 scriptures to back my position when what I am saying is simply that the scriptures mentioned here are misinterpreted by reading the rapture into them. But I will give this a try. But first in order to back my stance on the rapture or lack of, I will reiterate something important. As I study more and more, I am more and more convinced that Revelation was written before 70 AD.
1 -The many "coming soon" and "at hand" passages (1:1, 2:16, 3:11, 22:6-20) only make sense if events matching the symbolism of Revelation were not too far in the future. The Jewish themes would make no sense after 70 A.D. - there was nothing left of the Jewish state.
2- The Beast (which most if not all scholars agree represents Rome) was ruled by its 6th head ("head" = "king" see: 17:10) which was already in existence in John's day. Of the 7 heads (kings) only one was left - by 95 A.D. Rome was long past its 7th Caesar.
3 - A 2nd Century manuscript of Revelation says it was written when Nero was Caesar (68 A.D.).
4 - There were still Judaizers in the church at that time (Rev. 2:9, 3:9) - impossible after 70A.D.
5 - The temple is apparently still standing in chapter 11.
6 - If the temple had already been destroyed, one would expect at least one mention of it somewhere.
7 - Revelation 2:2 shows that there were other apostles around - yet it is believed that all but John were dead by 70 A.D..
8 - Evidence for a massive persecution by Domitian (81-96 A.D.) is lacking.
9 - The only time there were only 7 churches in Asia was the early 60's.
10 -John was told he must prophesy again before kings (10:11) . . . he would have been over 90 if the late date is correct. Stories of his actions after being released from Patmos are difficult to reconcile with an aged man.

One scripture which has been associated with the rapture is Matthew 24. Let's look at this chapter of Matthew. We'll go on to Matthew 24:3 when the disciples ask Jesus the questions "when will THIS happen and when will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? So first we must look at what the disciples refer to as THIS in the first part of the question. Jesus had just finished telling them that "not one stone HERE will be left on another, every one will be thrown down." Where is HERE? Well Jesus had just left the temple when the disciples came upon Him. So, Jesus was talking about the temple before it was destroyed in 70AD and warning the disciples of it's imminent destruction. Jesus then warns about false teachers and the beginning of birth pains of the end times in Matthew 24:4-8. The next paragraph (Matthew 24:9-12) talks about persecution for following Jesus, and those who will turn away from Him due to this persecution. He says "those who stand firm until the end will be saved." He's talking about those who persevere to the end during the destruction of this temple and of Jerusalem that is coming. Matthew 24:15-22 are key. What is Jesus saying? We must also then look at Luke 21:20-28. In Matthew is uses the term abomination that causes desolation. What does this mean? Well if you read the parallel scripture Lule 21:20 it says "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that desolation is near. So, basically, Matthew 24:15-22 is talking about the end of the temple and Israel. Matthew 24:23-28 warns again against false Messiahs. Now we go on to Matthew 24:29 which speaks of a tribulation. What tribulation? The tribulation that just occurs during the destruction of the temple and Israel in 70AD. So after this tribulation what happens - well "The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken." A similar metaphor was used in Joel 3:15 signifying the judgment on the nations that attacked Israel. I believe Jesus used a similar metaphor to depict a judgment that will fall on all nations that took part in the destruction of Israel. Matthew 24:30-31 uses another judgment metaphor, "coming in the clouds." The believers will gather and continue to spread the gospel. The critical passage is Matthew 24:32-35 where Jesus says THIS generation shall not pass until all these things have passed. Jesus means THIS generation, not another generation in the future. Now we come to Matthew 24:36-44. So many times I have heard about how this scripture talks of a rapture. Two men on the field, one is taken and one is left.. Two women grinding in a mill, one is taken and one is left. Sounds like a rapture except that Jesus compared these times to the times of Noah. During Noah's time they were all taken but didn't know it until it happened, and only Noah's family was left. So, the ones taken were the unbelievers and those who were lost and the ones remaining were the believers during Noah's time and the current time Jesus speaks of. This is the opposite of what is supposed to happen in the rapture, when believers are taken and unbelievers are left behind. So, no, this scripture does not refer to a rapture. These scripture also tell the disciples to beware for only God will know when the Son of Man will come down in judgment (and He did in 70 AD when Israel and the temple were done for).
I will post some more scriptures a little later.

Thank you my friend, I have recorded your Scriptures. Without reading this right now, I think your position is Post-Trib, correct?

 

[Narwhalist]

Thank you my friend, I have recorded your Scriptures. Without reading this right now, I think your position is Post-Trib, correct?

Hi again chopper. Truly, my position is no-trib. While I am still researching, as I do, I am beginning to see that there will be no rapture, and there is no tribulation. As you saw in my post, the tribulation Jesus is talking about is the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem and the disappearance of Israel until 1948. I believe what the Bible is telling us is that the end times consist simply of the return of Jesus and the end of current times.

 

[Sinthesis]

What are the purposes of 'the rapture'?

1. Gathering
2. Deliverance

What else?
Are there any qualities it must exhibit?

 

[Chopper]

Hi again chopper. Truly, my position is no-trib. While I am still researching, as I do, I am beginning to see that there will be no rapture, and there is no tribulation. As you saw in my post, the tribulation Jesus is talking about is the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem and the disappearance of Israel until 1948. I believe what the Bible is telling us is that the end times consist simply of the return of Jesus and the end of current times.

Ok Narwhatist, Lets see if I understand. You are not a post-trib, you are a NO TRIB. If that is what you are advocating, that is a completely new concept that I'm not familiar with. I'm not sure that I could go along with that position. BUT, in this thread, no one, including me, has the final judgment. All of us that have been responding to our little project here will be the "panel of judges" and will approve or disapprove upon exhausting all our wisdom and knowledge on each position. After I collect ALL the positions from the ones who want their position scrutinized and approved. We, (those involved in the project) will immediately focus on your position to see if it's a valid one. I would suggest that you compile as much info. as you can so that you can defend your position. This may have to be taken to the apologetics forum if Reba thinks so. I would prefer that it stays here so everyone on this project can respond.

 

[Narwhalist]

Ok Narwhatist, Lets see if I understand. You are not a post-trib, you are a NO TRIB. If that is what you are advocating, that is a completely new concept that I'm not familiar with. I'm not sure that I could go along with that position. BUT, in this thread, no one, including me, has the final judgment. All of us that have been responding to our little project here will be the "panel of judges" and will approve or disapprove upon exhausting all our wisdom and knowledge on each position. After I collect ALL the positions from the ones who want their position scrutinized and approved. We, (those involved in the project) will immediately focus on your position to see if it's a valid one. I would suggest that you compile as much info. as you can so that you can defend your position. This may have to be taken to the apologetics forum if Reba thinks so. I would prefer that it stays here so everyone on this project can respond.

Let me reword this Chopper, so that maybe we can stay here with it. I believe that the "tribulation" that NT talks about in Matthew 24 and Revelation as well as Daniel, has already occurred - the destruction of the temple, end of temple sacrifice, judgment on Israel, on nations participating in the destruction of Israel and all of this occurred without a rapture. Jesus, however has not come yet. That is still in the future. But, He did judge Israel and the nations around Israel in 70 AD. That is His coming in the clouds. So the tribulation occurred without rapture and that is my stance. This is why it's so important to find out when Revelation was written, before 70 AD or around 95 AD. If it was written before 70 AD, then Revelation could be relevant to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, not to the future (except 2nd coming of Jesus). If you look at Revelation it has many metaphors that were also used in Ezekiel, before the destruction of the temple in 586 BC. So Revelation scripture prophesies could be directed at the temple in 70 AD just as Ezekiel prophecies where for the temple in 586 BC. If Revelations was written in 95 AD, then I am wrong and I will have to look at this in a different way.

 

[Narwhalist]

I don't see one single scripture in this post.

Only your commentary with a scripture "tag".


JLB

I am replying with scriptures from Matthew 24 and talking about it. What more do you want? I am giving you the scriptures and explaining my view. Isn't that what we are doing here? Some folks gave scripture and posted they were pre-trib and others for mid-trib and so on. Well, I took the scriptures and explained why I see no rapture.

 

[Narwhalist]

His views have nothing to do with a Rapture.

I have already suggested this very thing.

From post 210 -




JLB

Look. My views do have to do with the rapture. Since we are discussing the rapture, I don't see why my position should be excluded simply because I am saying that my position is that there might be no rapture. Chopper said this thread would be open to discussing anything about the rapture and coming to an agreement. But since you are dead set against my position on the rapture, I am not going to cause this thread to deteriorate into an argument. Chopper had a good idea, but there are always those who have to have things their way that will spoil everything.
I will no longer participate in this discussion. I prefer to find people who are willing to discuss things. Chopper, good luck

 

[reba]

Memebers: Chopper knows he has an open door for request of moderations if he asks. Chopper is doing a great job lets let him continue.. Most often in a Bible Study folks are in one room and the history of Bible study its self sorta dictates a certain kind of respect/decorum. That kind of respect would be most welcome here. Forums do not lean themselves to respect it would be a most pleasant change.

Edward has opened a 'sister' thread which allows for a bit more freedom in posting take advantage of it... If the rest of us could be as respectful as Chopper has been to staff, members and the pages them self the need for mods might disappear.

Lets move on with Choppers thread please, staying away from personal dislikes of different views. Moderator