IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Chopper]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Free, this is exactly why we don't use Hermeneutics............ God never said take cultural consideration when examining scriptures. He said compare spiritual with spiritual as the Holy Spirit our teacher. Line upon Line...... Like things with like things.

Never once did God mention taking culture, time, customs into consideration.
Do you see in that verse Jesus continuing down?

Does Hermeneutics make you add that to the scripture Free?

Do you even care about the warning not to add to the scripture?

If the Word does not say it, we don't imply it!!! or add it!!!

You know the biggest problem people have with hearing God is that they do hear, but add in things on their own God did not say.

It's messed me up more than once, but I have learned. If you had on your mind to buy something expensive but was not sure, then the Lord speaks and tells you to go to the store that sells that thing, you don't add "Go ahead and buy it" Your direction was just to go to that store, nothing else.

Mike.

Hi Mike, I admire you very much, I want you to know that. Over the years of my Salvation, I have had about ten direct visits from Jesus, through the Holy Spirit. I knew it was Him, and when he told me to do something, IT WORKED every time. I must admit that your experience with the Spirit is different than mine and probably lots of others. I have learned that Jesus uses us in different ways with different gifts. I believe you when you say that God led you in a particular way, but others might not because they have never encountered God the way you have. You are an exception rather than the rule. I would caution you, though, not to think more highly of yourself than others who have not had those experiences. That will lead to a fall. I love you, in the Lord, and know that Jesus has favored you many times as you have had extraordinary faith, God bless you.

Mike, have you ever thought, because there are three major rapture theories with Scripture to back them up, that there just might be three "gatherings"?

 

[Brother Mike]

EDITED STAFF

I am with you and Brother Mike on what has been discussed and see the scriptures in the same light. You bring up an excellent question. I might be able to shed some light on it. When John is taken to heaven to see what must be hereafter Thu church is already there!
Fear itself is a lack of faith, but the idea of perceiving a rapture and looking forward to it is not fear, it is a joy and a love for Christ's appearing.

Yes Brother Edward, The Lord tells John, "Come up hither" and we are all there with the 12 tribe elders of Israel and the seats of the 12 Apostles of the lamb are there.

The reason Fear is so deadly is because it's not a lack of faith, it's Satan's version of faith and it's just as powerful.

Faith believes something it hopes for, something it can't yet see in the future. No evidence it will happen physically, but we believe what God said as evidence.
Fear is also faith for something to happen in the future. No evidence it's going to happen, but fear believes the outcome to go against the things the Lord said.
Instead of God supply's all my needs, Fear says that we my not have enough to cover all the bills.
Instead of my God watches between me and thee while we are away, Fear says they won't saner the cell phone because someone may have grabbed them, they may have had a crash.

Hi Mike, I admire you very much, I want you to know that. Over the years of my Salvation, I have had about ten direct visits from Jesus, through the Holy Spirit. I knew it was Him, and when he told me to do something, IT WORKED every time. I must admit that your experience with the Spirit is different than mine and probably lots of others. I have learned that Jesus uses us in different ways with different gifts. I believe you when you say that God led you in a particular way, but others might not because they have never encountered God the way you have.
Mike, have you ever thought, because there are three major rapture theories with Scripture to back them up, that there just might be three "gatherings"?

Chopper lets get one thing clear. Being led by the Spirit of God means you keep a clear conscience, You make every day a want to do the Lord's will day, and you trust that if you don't hear things that it's all OK and if something was important the Lord will send Neon signs if He has to so you can be alert about it.

I will give you the Key to keeping your doctrine right and to hear the Lord such as you have with Jesus appear and directing you.

Joh_7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

That is the key right there. Where I work, where I go to church, what I do I check in with the Lord first. Even going to the store I take a moment just in case I need to stay, my life depends on this.

I always check my heart, right or left, stay or go. I am not special Chopper, I am around many that hear God more than I, have been more obedient.

Always follow the peace in your heart. Check the peace.................... Do you have peace before doing this or that. Many would be alive today if they would have just not done things against their own heart, and obeyed their conscience.

I am not special Chopper, there is a reason I might appear to be special but God is no respecter of persons and so it must be something else if someone hears God and someone does not. The blunt truth Chopper is that God does not have much to direct if He can't get a person to even keep their dishes cleaned up or go some place when prompted. What more direction can God give someone if they can't walk in love toward their own spouse? Can't stay faithful just cleaning toilets?

Jesus said............ You have been faithful in little, now have authority over 5 cities................. The man that was given one, just something to work with did nothing with it.

3 Major Rapture Theory's

The only ones I have seen valid are the Post and Pre trib theories. Mid trib is very hard to bend scriptures around. I say this because I believe the Holy Spirit to have shown the same things concerning the End to the pre and post trib camp. It is all the same except the point the Church gets to be with Jesus. Also the Post and Pre trib belief only hangs on but a few scriptures and how you read them.

To say there are more valid theory's would be hard to line scriptures up with it. I have looked at many, even the theory that the Church is really Israel which is false, or that the 6th seal has already been released in some (Hyperbole) way that nobody noticed. That is also false.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

I am with you and Brother Mike on what has been discussed and see the scriptures in the same light. You bring up an excellent question. I might be able to shed some light on it. When John is taken to heaven to see what must be hereafter Thu church is already there! This is also before the scroll is opened and Gods wrath poured out upon the earth. In Revelation 1:20 it speaks of the seven golden candlesticks, they are identified as such as being the seven churches. The 24 elders in Revelation 5 seem to be identified as "the redeemed" (vs 9 & 10) and worship God before the scroll is opened (Chapter 6). It is then that the judgments proceed, but the redeemed and the churches are already in heaven!

Great tribulation on the earth begins when the scroll is unsealed in chapter 6. The 70th week of Daniel is detailed in Revelation 6-19 pretty much.

Revelation 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?/(KJV)

Says Here comes the wrath that was promised and which Gods people were promised to not to have to endure in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 1:10





Fear itself is a lack of faith, but the idea of perceiving a rapture and looking forward to it is not fear, it is a joy and a love for Christ's appearing. I hear many people who do not believe in the rapture make the statement that we who look forward to the rapture are in fear, and this is unfounded and not true. They never substantiate it, why they believe us to be in fear, nor did you. Any fear is a lack of faith and would be indicative of not having a close enough relationship with the Lord. Many who believe in a pre-trib, are the closest to the Lord, in anticipation of His appearing which could be at any time. If we do not want to be left behind, then we are to be sure to have oil in our lamps (Holy Spirit!).

It is glory to the Lord for a rapture, simply because his people will be with Him and worshiping Him! The Lord will be with His bride! How could it not bring glory to the Lord for this to happen?!

There are many thousands of saints that have gone to heaven before the Great Tribulation, starting with Stephen.

They are there in heaven and will return with Christ at the end of the age, when The Lord returns to Gather His people at the resurrection.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Hi Brother Free. During Jesus' reign, what makes you think it will be from earth instead of heaven? In Rev 4:2 His throne is set there, His saints are being gathered there to rule with Him over the earth, and they will conjointly hand out judgment.

Would glorified ruling saints be mingling with unsaved mankind during Christ's thousand reign? I ask this considering the following scripture.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, and Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Thanks in Jesus' name.

. 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Matthew 25:31-32

Jesus reigns and rules from Earth when He Comes.

Matthew 25 is in direct context of Matthew 24:29-31.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken : 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other . Matthew 24:29-31

He gathers His saints from both heaven and Earth to be with Him.

We have the Trumpet and the gathering, just as 1 Thessalonians 4 lays out.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

EDITED STAFF



Yes Brother Edward, The Lord tells John, "Come up hither" and we are all there with the 12 tribe elders of Israel and the seats of the 12 Apostles of the lamb are there.

The reason Fear is so deadly is because it's not a lack of faith, it's Satan's version of faith and it's just as powerful.

Faith believes something it hopes for, something it can't yet see in the future. No evidence it will happen physically, but we believe what God said as evidence.
Fear is also faith for something to happen in the future. No evidence it's going to happen, but fear believes the outcome to go against the things the Lord said.
Instead of God supply's all my needs, Fear says that we my not have enough to cover all the bills.
Instead of my God watches between me and thee while we are away, Fear says they won't saner the cell phone because someone may have grabbed them, they may have had a crash.



Chopper lets get one thing clear. Being led by the Spirit of God means you keep a clear conscience, You make every day a want to do the Lord's will day, and you trust that if you don't hear things that it's all OK and if something was important the Lord will send Neon signs if He has to so you can be alert about it.

I will give you the Key to keeping your doctrine right and to hear the Lord such as you have with Jesus appear and directing you.

Joh_7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

That is the key right there. Where I work, where I go to church, what I do I check in with the Lord first. Even going to the store I take a moment just in case I need to stay, my life depends on this.

I always check my heart, right or left, stay or go. I am not special Chopper, I am around many that hear God more than I, have been more obedient.

Always follow the peace in your heart. Check the peace.................... Do you have peace before doing this or that. Many would be alive today if they would have just not done things against their own heart, and obeyed their conscience.

I am not special Chopper, there is a reason I might appear to be special but God is no respecter of persons and so it must be something else if someone hears God and someone does not. The blunt truth Chopper is that God does not have much to direct if He can't get a person to even keep their dishes cleaned up or go some place when prompted. What more direction can God give someone if they can't walk in love toward their own spouse? Can't stay faithful just cleaning toilets?

Jesus said............ You have been faithful in little, now have authority over 5 cities................. The man that was given one, just something to work with did nothing with it.

3 Major Rapture Theory's

The only ones I have seen valid are the Post and Pre trib theories. Mid trib is very hard to bend scriptures around. I say this because I believe the Holy Spirit to have shown the same things concerning the End to the pre and post trib camp. It is all the same except the point the Church gets to be with Jesus. Also the Post and Pre trib belief only hangs on but a few scriptures and how you read them.

To say there are more valid theory's would be hard to line scriptures up with it. I have looked at many, even the theory that the Church is really Israel which is false, or that the 6th seal has already been released in some (Hyperbole) way that nobody noticed. That is also false.

Blessings.

Mike.

Very good Mike, thank you for the response.

 

[Chopper]

I am with you and Brother Mike on what has been discussed and see the scriptures in the same light. You bring up an excellent question. I might be able to shed some light on it. When John is taken to heaven to see what must be hereafter Thu church is already there! This is also before the scroll is opened and Gods wrath poured out upon the earth. In Revelation 1:20 it speaks of the seven golden candlesticks, they are identified as such as being the seven churches. The 24 elders in Revelation 5 seem to be identified as "the redeemed" (vs 9 & 10) and worship God before the scroll is opened (Chapter 6). It is then that the judgments proceed, but the redeemed and the churches are already in heaven!

Great tribulation on the earth begins when the scroll is unsealed in chapter 6. The 70th week of Daniel is detailed in Revelation 6-19 pretty much.

Revelation 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?/(KJV)

Says Here comes the wrath that was promised and which Gods people were promised to not to have to endure in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 1:10





Fear itself is a lack of faith, but the idea of perceiving a rapture and looking forward to it is not fear, it is a joy and a love for Christ's appearing. I hear many people who do not believe in the rapture make the statement that we who look forward to the rapture are in fear, and this is unfounded and not true. They never substantiate it, why they believe us to be in fear, nor did you. Any fear is a lack of faith and would be indicative of not having a close enough relationship with the Lord. Many who believe in a pre-trib, are the closest to the Lord, in anticipation of His appearing which could be at any time. If we do not want to be left behind, then we are to be sure to have oil in our lamps (Holy Spirit!).

It is glory to the Lord for a rapture, simply because his people will be with Him and worshiping Him! The Lord will be with His bride! How could it not bring glory to the Lord for this to happen?!

That's a good way of looking at a pre-trib gathering. Not to say ezrider is wrong because he has a good presentation in post #124.

 

[Chopper]

Hey Gang, All of your posts have been very interesting. You are doing a great job of respecting each other for the most part. I congratulate you all....Now it's time for the Scriptures of your position on the Gathering unto Christ. If you are pre-trib. give around 6 major Scriptures that teach your pre-trib posture....If you are mid-trib present 6 major Scriptures that teach your position....and the same for post-trib. Please don't comment on other positions or other posts until you have finished with your Scriptures on your position. Please try real hard not to comment on other views because it's going to be almost impossible to hold back your fingers on the keyboard. I want to see all the Scriptures that present each rapture (gathering) theory. Once we see each position (pre-mid-post) we can begin to compare theirs with yours. Who knows? there just might be some changes made.

 

[JLB]

What Jesus taught in Matthew 24 about the gathering is crucial as to the timing.

1 Corinthians 15 is THE Resurrection chapter, that tells us WHO WILL GO. Those who are Christ's, at His Coming.

From there we can understand what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Trying to discuss the book of Revelation before we have a foundation of understanding from what Jesus said in Matthew 24, which was built upon by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonian 4 is futile.

 

[Chopper]

What Jesus taught in Matthew 24 about the gathering is crucial as to the timing.

1 Corinthians 15 is THE Resurrection chapter, that tells us WHO WILL GO. Those who are Christ's, at His Coming.

From there we can understand what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Trying to discuss the book of Revelation before we have a foundation of understanding from what Jesus said in Matthew 24, which was built upon by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonian 4 is futile.

I agree, I have been reading Mt. 24 a lot. Thank you JLB.

 

[Chopper]

May I give my view on this? I liken it to a Harvest of a farmer. Scripture speaks of this and models much of this after Jewish tradition. The wedding and so forth, and the harvest. In a Jewish farmers harvest, there are three gatherings of fruit.

The firstfruits which ripen early (there's always a few early ripe fruits!) (Jesus)
The main harvest where the main crop is taken in. (except for the corners, or 'gleanings') (Rapture)
Then the last harvest of the gleanings. (After the Great Tribulation)

Jewish farmers were instructed to not work on the sabbath, and that people passing through could pick and eat legally as they passed through the field etc., This could be likened to the taking of Enoch and Elijah and so forth. Perhaps they were even taken on the Sabbath? Who knows? lol. Might not make a difference anyway.

Very good Edward, I like your harvest picture. Three is an important number. My Mother used to say "Fish and company stink after three days".

 

[Brother Mike]

Hey Gang, All of your posts have been very interesting. You are doing a great job of respecting each other for the most part. I congratulate you all....Now it's time for the Scriptures of your position on the Gathering unto Christ. If you are pre-trib. give around 6 major Scriptures that teach your pre-trib posture....

Blessings to all who have participated. (yes even the Post tribbers....)

I could fill the page with connecting scriptures to a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church.

I would rather though share what got me looking at a different position as I use to believe that we would all have to go through tribulation.

The first incident was when I just got out of Prison and day 1 at the Homeless shelter. I was in back playing Electronic Battleship (My first type of video game in over 21 months!!!) I was getting a flesh fix for sure even though it was just battleship.

A crazy guy had come in the front and people told me about him. He never talked and just screamed until he went to sleep for the night then He would leave again for a couple days at a time.Nobody could even talk to him.

Well, the crazy guy decided to come in my first day at the shelter, and started to scream out front that Jesus was Lord....... then He would Yell, NO!!! Satan is my lord.
Well, I just heard him up there screaming this and I just decided he was a few fries short of a happy meal and continued to play battleship.

Then God has to speak to me............... he said, "Are you going out there to help him?"

I said, "NOPE, Lord you know I just got out of prison and I want to play battleship. Send someone else."

The Lord spoke again, "Are you going out there to help him?"

I said, "Please Lord, I am tired and just want to play my game, besides that guy is crazy and everyone out there is watching"

(The conversation between me and the Lord went something like that. Mind you, I still had a whole lot of more maturing to do. You don't tell the Lord NO, ever.)

The Lord spoke again, "You know............ Your the only one I have here that can help him."

I am thankful the Lord is kind and did not lightning bolt my butt. I got up and walked down the hall to the front desk and sleeping area. It was like a gym type thing and lots of guys were just standing around giving this crazy guy a wide berth.

I walked over to him while he was yelling and I grabbed his shoulder, I spun him around and said......"Look at me, I am anointed of God to help you."

Then I said real loud, "In the name of Jesus devil, you shut up and keep silent."

Just then the guy started to cry and say over and over the monster is gone, the monster is gone. (I have no idea what he was seeing)

I told him we could go in back and talk (Where my battleship game was left) We started down the hall and all those guys came following me but would not get close. They stopped in the hall and would not enter in the room with us.

As soon as I walked in the room another homeless person was in there and he started to scream at me. He said, "I know who you are, I know who you are, I know who you are, you can't cast me out, You can't cast me out!!!!!"

Wow there are some disturbed people in Homeless shelters....... before I could even react the guy ran out of the room, past all the men and down the hall, then out the front door. (never saw him again)

I talked with this guy and found out he was a believer but started to date some witch and things went down hill from there. We got it sorted and the Lord gave him some instructions on what to do next.

then I spent 3 hours talking with all the guys in the hall answering a million questions. There had to be about 30 of them all just asking and wanting to speak.

Then...................... the wife whom I was trying to get back together with came and saw all the commotion and I talked with her for awhile.

Then..........

It's night time now and I went to get back to my battleship game......... but someone stole the batteries I put in there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something dawned on me.............. If the anointed Church is left on earth, Satan don't stand a chance. That is when I got to looking to see if that was true or something I just came up with. Of course I went to the Lord and told him if that was him putting that thought in my head, I would need to see it proved out in scripture.

Anything "I THINK" the Holy Spirit shows me, I demand it to be backed by the Word.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Who is letting iniquity work? Sin and iniquity gets to work without the consequences it brings. Someone has to remove themselves so that will no longer be the case.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Mat_5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Rom_5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

While the body of Christ is on the earth, so is the Lord Jesus as His body is here, Him being the head. He is not judging the World (YET) Where sin abounds, His grace abounds much more as we are the light.

When the light is removed from the World, and He removes himself (BODY) then iniquity no longer continues as it once did without the judgement. Grace no longer abounds.

Because the light (US) is completely removed from the World, the Son of perdition (Antichrist) can operate freely in all deception.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Because they did not receive the gospel preached all over the World and loved not the truth, God sends a strong delusion that they believe the lie they made for themselves.

The gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church and we have been delivered from the powers of Darkness. During tribulation Satan will be able to operate with power he once had before Jesus destroyed his works. We can't be in the way of that, there will be no more light, grace will no longer abound.

This is why I know we can't be around.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Blessings to all who have participated. (yes even the Post tribbers....)

I could fill the page with connecting scriptures to a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church.

I would rather though share what got me looking at a different position as I use to believe that we would all have to go through tribulation.

The first incident was when I just got out of Prison and day 1 at the Homeless shelter. I was in back playing Electronic Battleship (My first type of video game in over 21 months!!!) I was getting a flesh fix for sure even though it was just battleship.

A crazy guy had come in the front and people told me about him. He never talked and just screamed until he went to sleep for the night then He would leave again for a couple days at a time.Nobody could even talk to him.

Well, the crazy guy decided to come in my first day at the shelter, and started to scream out front that Jesus was Lord....... then He would Yell, NO!!! Satan is my lord.
Well, I just heard him up there screaming this and I just decided he was a few fries short of a happy meal and continued to play battleship.

Then God has to speak to me............... he said, "Are you going out there to help him?"

I said, "NOPE, Lord you know I just got out of prison and I want to play battleship. Send someone else."

The Lord spoke again, "Are you going out there to help him?"

I said, "Please Lord, I am tired and just want to play my game, besides that guy is crazy and everyone out there is watching"

(The conversation between me and the Lord went something like that. Mind you, I still had a whole lot of more maturing to do. You don't tell the Lord NO, ever.)

The Lord spoke again, "You know............ Your the only one I have here that can help him."

I am thankful the Lord is kind and did not lightning bolt my butt. I got up and walked down the hall to the front desk and sleeping area. It was like a gym type thing and lots of guys were just standing around giving this crazy guy a wide berth.

I walked over to him while he was yelling and I grabbed his shoulder, I spun him around and said......"Look at me, I am anointed of God to help you."

Then I said real loud, "In the name of Jesus devil, you shut up and keep silent."

Just then the guy started to cry and say over and over the monster is gone, the monster is gone. (I have no idea what he was seeing)

I told him we could go in back and talk (Where my battleship game was left) We started down the hall and all those guys came following me but would not get close. They stopped in the hall and would not enter in the room with us.

As soon as I walked in the room another homeless person was in there and he started to scream at me. He said, "I know who you are, I know who you are, I know who you are, you can't cast me out, You can't cast me out!!!!!"

Wow there are some disturbed people in Homeless shelters....... before I could even react the guy ran out of the room, past all the men and down the hall, then out the front door. (never saw him again)

I talked with this guy and found out he was a believer but started to date some witch and things went down hill from there. We got it sorted and the Lord gave him some instructions on what to do next.

then I spent 3 hours talking with all the guys in the hall answering a million questions. There had to be about 30 of them all just asking and wanting to speak.

Then...................... the wife whom I was trying to get back together with came and saw all the commotion and I talked with her for awhile.

Then..........

It's night time now and I went to get back to my battleship game......... but someone stole the batteries I put in there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something dawned on me.............. If the anointed Church is left on earth, Satan don't stand a chance. That is when I got to looking to see if that was true or something I just came up with. Of course I went to the Lord and told him if that was him putting that thought in my head, I would need to see it proved out in scripture.

Anything "I THINK" the Holy Spirit shows me, I demand it to be backed by the Word.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Who is letting iniquity work? Sin and iniquity gets to work without the consequences it brings. Someone has to remove themselves so that will no longer be the case.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Mat_5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Rom_5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

While the body of Christ is on the earth, so is the Lord Jesus as His body is here, Him being the head. He is not judging the World (YET) Where sin abounds, His grace abounds much more as we are the light.

When the light is removed from the World, and He removes himself (BODY) then iniquity no longer continues as it once did without the judgement. Grace no longer abounds.

Because the light (US) is completely removed from the World, the Son of perdition (Antichrist) can operate freely in all deception.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Because they did not receive the gospel preached all over the World and loved not the truth, God sends a strong delusion that they believe the lie they made for themselves.

The gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church and we have been delivered from the powers of Darkness. During tribulation Satan will be able to operate with power he once had before Jesus destroyed his works. We can't be in the way of that, there will be no more light, grace will no longer abound.

This is why I know we can't be around.

Mike.

I Love you Brother Mike.

But all the personal opinion in the world can not explain away -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven.

...afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23


JLB

 

[reba]

Hey guys this is Choppers OP .... Moderator

 

[JLB]

Hey guys this is Choppers OP .... Moderator

Everything I post is within the context of the OP.

Thank you.

JLB

 

[Narwhalist]

Hey Gang, All of your posts have been very interesting. You are doing a great job of respecting each other for the most part. I congratulate you all....Now it's time for the Scriptures of your position on the Gathering unto Christ. If you are pre-trib. give around 6 major Scriptures that teach your pre-trib posture....If you are mid-trib present 6 major Scriptures that teach your position....and the same for post-trib. Please don't comment on other positions or other posts until you have finished with your Scriptures on your position. Please try real hard not to comment on other views because it's going to be almost impossible to hold back your fingers on the keyboard. I want to see all the Scriptures that present each rapture (gathering) theory. Once we see each position (pre-mid-post) we can begin to compare theirs with yours. Who knows? there just might be some changes made.

What should one who doesn't think the rapture is biblical do? I am neither pre nor mid nor post because I don't think the Bible addresses a rapture.

 

[JLB]

What should one who doesn't think the rapture is biblical do? I am neither pre nor mid nor post because I don't think the Bible addresses a rapture.

What do you call the event whereby those who are alive and remain are caught up together with those who have been Resurrected from the dead?

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

JLB

 

[Narwhalist]

What do you call the event whereby those who are alive and remain are caught up together with those who have been Resurrected from the dead?

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

JLB

I don't see this scripture as rapture theology. I believe it's talking about the 2nd coming of our Lord. It continues in 1 Thessalonians 5. The coming of the Lord. It says the dead will rise first and then those who remain alive shall be caught up together with them. Well, the dead will only rise once - during the 2nd coming of our Lord. I would think that if Jesus was going to rapture the church the way it's been described that He would have said something about it, clearly so we would have any doubts about it, just like He described salvation. All He ever said was that He was coming again.

 

[ezrider]

That's a good way of looking at a pre-trib gathering. Not to say ezrider is wrong because he has a good presentation in post #124.

Thank you for having a cool head in this discussion and for having my back in what apparently has seemed to spark a somewhat angry and hostile reaction from a few. I never realized there was such and extensive doctrine of fear to be feared. But I guess if such an innocuous statement can generate such a reaction, then the spirit convicts who it wills, and it is upon them and not myself. People do not fear the tribulation because they have been taught to believe they will escape the tribulation; but have they placed their hope in a rapture? or is Christ their hope? You may disagree with me, and maintain a hope for the rapture, but when the rapture does not come, where will your faith stand then? When you find yourself in the midst of the tribulation that you have always believed the Lord would remove you from, will you cry out to the Lord or curse the Lord? The Lord said that if you wanted to believe a lie, then he would send strong delusion so that you believe that lie: Could the rapture theory be part of that strong delusion? In my earlier post, I gave many example of peoples in the past going through the their tribulations, and by faith persevering; but in response to the defense of a rapture, we have gotten someones dream and personal experiences. Is that sound doctrine? I am reminded what Jesus spoke in Matt 7:22-23: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I am not advocating that anyone should believe or disbelieve in a rapture, but I do not place my hope in the rapture. My eyes and heart are fixed on the Kingdom of Heaven, and in my mind, The Lord has much greater things in store for us than to just fly away and escape the tribulation.

Matt 13:37-43
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Brother Mike]

I Love you Brother Mike.

But all the personal opinion in the world can not explain away -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven.

...afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23


JLB

I love you to brother

You already know though pre-trib camp splits up Matt 24 into two separate events.

Jesus comes Immediately right after the 7th angelic trumpet blast and release of the 6th and 7th seal.
The 7th seal brings 1/2 hour of complete silence and darkness on the earth before Jesus shows up with the Angels and brilliant light that every eye will see.

We agree with that, it has yet come to pass, and will come.

However, Jesus continued to speak and said no man know the day or hour.......... Not even the hour.
One taken one left and just like Noah, nobody knew a thing until Noah entered the boat.

Examine that JLB............... that first trumpet sounds all will know things are not right. It's fire mixed with hail and blood as to not competently ruin the earth yet.
They will see the sea turned to blood, they will see giant creatures come out of smoking pit.
The will see every star vanish and that 1/2 hour of silence where they try to hide from the face of the lamb.

The Rapture of the Church before tribulation, they don't see or know a thing until one is taken and one left. Just like Jesus said, they knew not a thing until Noah entered the ark. We don't know the hour even but when Jesus comes After tribulation we can pinpoint it down to the exact Half hour.

It does no line up for me JLB for a Post Trib position.

Immediately after tribulation................... right after the stars vanish.

to

We don't even know the hour.

There are two separate Events here JLB, the Event Jesus said pray that we are worthy to escape ALL........ and ALL was everything he mentioned above in Luke 21.

As I told you, it's just 4 key verses that separate a post or pre trib position.

My hope is that anyone following this does not think Rev is that complicated. It seems like it but it's not, and it helps to understand both pre and post trib positions.

Once you understand both sides Agree 100% and give detail step by step on what is going to happen and see where the disagreement comes on 4 key areas you will come to find that it has to be one or the other and won't get confused by doctrines that tell us it's all happened already.

Chopper mentioned a Mid trib position, to get that you would have to take all the pre-trib position and change the White Horse rider unless the Antichrist is not revealed until 3 1/2 years into Tribulation............... I don't think that is the case though.

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

I don't see this scripture as rapture theology. I believe it's talking about the 2nd coming of our Lord. It continues in 1 Thessalonians 5. The coming of the Lord. It says the dead will rise first and then those who remain alive shall be caught up together with them. Well, the dead will only rise once - during the 2nd coming of our Lord. I would think that if Jesus was going to rapture the church the way it's been described that He would have said something about it, clearly so we would have any doubts about it, just like He described salvation. All He ever said was that He was coming again.

Of Course Brother. I agree.

However, I thought you were saying you don't believe there will be a Rapture.

The Rapture happens AFTER the Resurrection.

Even if by a split second.

The whole Resurrection/Rapture occurrence is being labeled "Gathering" in this thread.

We know from scripture that the Resurrection takes place, at His Coming.

We know from scripture that His Coming is after the tribulation, at the end of the age.

To me, it is clear.

Bless you Brother.


JLB