IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Chopper]

Let me reword this Chopper, so that maybe we can stay here with it. I believe that the "tribulation" that NT talks about in Matthew 24 and Revelation as well as Daniel, has already occurred - the destruction of the temple, end of temple sacrifice, judgment on Israel, on nations participating in the destruction of Israel and all of this occurred without a rapture. Jesus, however has not come yet. That is still in the future. But, He did judge Israel and the nations around Israel in 70 AD. That is His coming in the clouds. So the tribulation occurred without rapture and that is my stance. This is why it's so important to find out when Revelation was written, before 70 AD or around 95 AD. If it was written before 70 AD, then Revelation could be relevant to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, not to the future (except 2nd coming of Jesus). If you look at Revelation it has many metaphors that were also used in Ezekiel, before the destruction of the temple in 586 BC. So Revelation scripture prophesies could be directed at the temple in 70 AD just as Ezekiel prophecies where for the temple in 586 BC. If Revelations was written in 95 AD, then I am wrong and I will have to look at this in a different way.

Wow, quite complicated if you ask me. Perhaps others can shed some light on this subject.

 

[Chopper]

Members: Chopper knows he has an open door for request of moderations if he asks. Chopper is doing a great job lets let him continue.. Most often in a Bible Study folks are in one room and the history of Bible study its self sorta dictates a certain kind of respect/decorum. That kind of respect would be most welcome here. Forums do not lean themselves to respect it would be a most pleasant change.

Edward has opened a 'sister' thread which allows for a bit more freedom in posting take advantage of it... If the rest of us could be as respectful as Chopper has been to staff, members and the pages them self the need for mods might disappear.

Lets move on with Choppers thread please, staying away from personal dislikes of different views. Moderator

Thank you Reba for the kind words. I hope everyone follows your instructions. By the way folks, Reba is on our side. She has my approval to keep the thread moving as I have asked, even to the deleting of posts that are not what I asked for.

 

[Chopper]

Look. My views do have to do with the rapture. Since we are discussing the rapture, I don't see why my position should be excluded simply because I am saying that my position is that there might be no rapture. Chopper said this thread would be open to discussing anything about the rapture and coming to an agreement. But since you are dead set against my position on the rapture, I am not going to cause this thread to deteriorate into an argument. Chopper had a good idea, but there are always those who have to have things their way that will spoil everything.
I will no longer participate in this discussion. I prefer to find people who are willing to discuss things. Chopper, good luck

I don't want to see you go. Lets find some way to resolve this. Lets all remember, this thread is all about bringing Glory to Jesus Christ and His coming. It's not about your view and you winning, it IS about our group winning and setting a great example to the rest of CF.net on how to work together in solving a very difficult Scriptural theology like the rapture (gathering). Lets also remember that according to Galatians 2:20 Christ lives in Narwhalist so lets treat him as we would treat Jesus if He told you what Narwhalist is saying. You all are a very special group of men! For a reason that only the Holy Spirit knows, He called us to this project and according to 1 Corinthians 1:10, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be NO DIVISIONS among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." So, for the sake of Jesus Christ who loved us and suffered so much for us, lets suffer a little with each other, so we can finish this noble project, I have faith in each of you.

 

[Sinthesis]

Is there a rapture?
Have we even defined the rapture yet?
What is the purpose of the rapture?
Is there only one?

 

[Chopper]

Is there a rapture?
Have we even defined the rapture yet?
What is the purpose of the rapture?
Is there only one?[/quote

Good morning Sinthesis, we have changed the word rapture to gathering, since rapture is man made and is not a Biblical word. The gathering is when Jesus brings all Christians to be where He is. Some feel that the gathering is "pre-trib", in that Christians will not endure any of the tribulation. Mid-trib is when Christians will be gathered at the halfway mark, 3 1/2 yrs, of the tribulation, and post-trib is when Christians will be gathered at the end of the tribulation....Some believe that there is only one gathering, so they place it within these three possibilities. There are others who believe there will be three gatherings, one for the Bride (pre-trib), another for the luke warm church who have become serious during the first half of the tribulation (mid-trib). The folk who believe in the (post-trib) will be gathered at the end of the tribulation.

Is your position like one of these? There are some who believe that there is no gathering and no tribulation.

 

[Chopper]

Good morning folks, I think some of you have misunderstood what is supposed to happen in this thread after we post our rapture (gathering) positions. The next phase will be to discuss each one. Those who believe in Pre-trib will defend that position and we can ask questions and discuss that position and so on. We will examine all three positions. There will be ample time to discuss back and forth each position. NO ONE WILL BE LEFT OUT! All I want to know right now, are there any Mid-trib position believers? If so, then please post your six Scriptures, I'll record them and we can move to this next phase.

 

[Chopper]

I understand Chopper. I thought the sister thread would help keep the white noise down in this thread and would help. I will delete it if that is your desire.

Members, if you have questions, hold on to them until Chopper gives the go ahead.

(I'm ready! ;))

I posted my reply on your sister thread. Thank you my friend.

 

[Chopper]

OK folks, since no one else is posting their "gathering" theory, we will move to the next phase of our project. I'm sorry about one of our team members thinking that this thread is a "control tower" but if it didn't have a logical flow, it would just get stuck in a thread of arguing positions. This way, we can now inspect the Pre-Trib Gathering. Edward and Mike are believers of the pre-trib position. I will list six Scriptures that Edward has given to support his position.

I. Post #169 EDWARD
John 14:1-3
1 Thess. 1:10
Phil. 3:20,21
Titus 2:13
Heb. 9:28
Ja. 5:7-9

Now, lets everyone study those Scriptures and decide if they indeed speak of a pre-trib gathering.

 

[JLB]

OK folks, since no one else is posting their "gathering" theory, we will move to the next phase of our project. I'm sorry about one of our team members thinking that this thread is a "control tower" but if it didn't have a logical flow, it would just get stuck in a thread of arguing positions. This way, we can now inspect the Pre-Trib Gathering. Edward and Mike are believers of the pre-trib position. I will list six Scriptures that Edward has given to support his position.

I. Post #169 EDWARD
John 14:1-3
1 Thess. 1:10
Phil. 3:20,21
Titus 2:13
Heb. 9:28
Ja. 5:7-9

Now, lets everyone study those Scriptures and decide if they indeed speak of a pre-trib gathering.

1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. John 14:1-3

I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

compares nicely with - And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

which is almost word for word as what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


In other words, it is hard to imagine that Jesus would tell His disciples He is Coming after the tribulation in one instance, then turn around and indicate the opposite some place else.

John 14:1-3 is saying the same thing as Matthew 24:29-31.

What do you think, Chopper?


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Narwhalist, I'm going to first of all address your Post-Trib gathering position....The dating (before 70AD

1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. John 14:1-3

I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

compares nicely with - And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

which is almost word for word as what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


In other words, it is hard to imagine that Jesus would tell His disciples He is Coming after the tribulation in one instance, then turn around and indicate the opposite some place else.

John 14:1-3 is saying the same thing as Matthew 24:29-31.

What do you think, Chopper?


JLB

Thank you JLB, First of all I must ask you a question. Do you believe in two phases of the tribulation seven year duration? In other words, events happening during the first 3 1/2 years and events happening in the second 3 1/2 years.

 

[JLB]

Narwhalist, I'm going to first of all address your Post-Trib gathering position....The dating (before 70AD


Thank you JLB, First of all I must ask you a question. Do you believe in two phases of the tribulation seven year duration? In other words, events happening during the first 3 1/2 years and events happening in the second 3 1/2 years.

I don't see a 7 year tribulation in the scriptures.

I see Daniel's 70th week, which is 7 years.

In the middle of that week, we see the term abomination of Desolation that Jesus spoke of, as He referred us to Daniel the prophet for understanding.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth , let him understand : For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be . Matthew 24:15,21


I believe the Tribulation is 3 1/2 years, not seven years.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Narwhalist, I have done more research on the dating of Revelation. My findings date Revelation during the years of 95-96 A.D. for the following reasons: The early date of 68 (Nero) is held primarily by some who adopt the preterist interpretation of Revelation with some questionalbe exegesis of several passages in the book. Laodicea, one of the seven churches, was devastated by an earthquake about A.D.60. For the rest of Nero's reign, the city was involved is reconstruction, and could hardly be considered rich, wealthy and having need of nothing. A date during Domitian's reign would allow time for Laodisea to regain its wealth. There is evidence that the church at Smyrna was not founded until after Paul's death, about A.D. 67 (Guthrie, New Testament Introducton, 954). It could hardly have begun, grown to maturity, and declined in the brief interval between the Apostle's death and the end of Nero's reign at about the same time. (G.R. Beasley-Murray)....The weight of evidence that I have posted and other sources, clearly favor a date for the writing of Revelation in the mid-nineties, near the end of Domitian's reign. This is critically important, because it eliminates the possibility that the prophesies in Revelation were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70 as you believe.

The church fathers Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus, Eusebius, and Jerome also affirm that Revelaton was written during Domitian's reign (Mounce, and Swete, Commentary on Revelation)....Paul nowhere mentions the heretical sect known as the Nicolaitans that plagued the churches at Ephesus and Pergamum (2:6, 15). But by the time of Revelation the sect had become so notorious that John could simply name it; the Nicolaitians were evidently so well-known to his readers that no description was necessary.

So as you can see, there is not a lot of evidence for a post-trib gathering, in my opinion.

I'm sure that others have something to say about this position, so lets hear it. Since there is no one in favor of a mid-trib gathering, we are, at this point, only looking at pre-trib and post-trib. That's a shame because there is evidence of a mid-trib. If no one wants to post in it, I will at some point.

 

[JLB]

So as you can see, there is not a lot of evidence for a post-trib gathering, in my opinion.

What evidence?

You just described some things about the timing of the book of Revelation.

What does that have to do with the six scriptures that I listed, which show Jesus Coming for His Church after the Tribulation, whereby He will be physically sighted by all, and Manifest Himself by the brightness of His coming?

Thanks, JLB

 

[Chopper]

I don't see a 7 year tribulation in the scriptures.

I see Daniel's 70th week, which is 7 years.

In the middle of that week, we see the term abomination of Desolation that Jesus spoke of, as He referred us to Daniel the prophet for understanding.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth , let him understand : For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be . Matthew 24:15,21


I believe the Tribulation is 3 1/2 years, not seven years.


JLB

OK my friend, Daniel was a prophet, writing about the future. He did mention a 70th week. Why don't you believe that he was speaking of the 7 yr. tribulaton period of which is our facal point? In the middle of that seven year period (3 1/2 yr.) according to 2 Thess. 2:3,4 the anti-christ desecrates the temple, and calls himself God. The first half is called "the beginning of birth pangs" (Mt. 24:8) and the second is called "great tribulaton" or Jacob's Trouble.This desecraton is mentioned in Daniel's prophecy three times (Dan. 9:27, 11:31, 12:11).

 

[JLB]

OK my friend, Daniel was a prophet, writing about the future. He did mention a 70th week. Why don't you believe that he was speaking of the 7 yr. tribulaton period of which is our facal point? In the middle of that seven year period (3 1/2 yr.) according to 2 Thess. 2:3,4 the anti-christ desecrates the temple, and calls himself God. The first half is called "the beginning of birth pangs" (Mt. 24:8) and the second is called "great tribulaton" or Jacob's Trouble.This desecraton is mentioned in Daniel's prophecy three times (Dan. 9:27, 11:31, 12:11).

I believe the second half of Daniel's 70th week is the Great Tribulation.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

What evidence?

You just described some things about the timing of the book of Revelation.

What does that have to do with the six scriptures that I listed, which show Jesus Coming for His Church after the Tribulation, whereby He will be physically sighted by all, and Manifest Himself by the brightness of His coming?

Thanks, JLB

That is because Narwhalist puts the datine of Revelation as a proof of a post-trib position. I was answering him. Right now I am answering the most recent questions. If the post-trib position is valid, according to Narwhalist, the date of writing will be around A.D.70, but the dating of Revelation is A.D. 95-96 instead of A.D.70, therefore there is no point is believeng in post-trib.

 

[Chopper]

Almost. But if you read it carefully you'll see where in the 1 Thess. 4:16 verse it says 'The Lord Himself...' and in the Matthew 24:31 it says that 'He will send His Angels...' Uh, that's kind of a big difference, don't you think? Let's not gloss over that little detail there. This is the very reason I believe it differentiates them as separate events.

I do agree with you that the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years and not 7 years.

Carry on.

Yes, the "great tribulation" (last 3 1/2 yrs.) Don't forget the first 3 1/2 yrs. called by Jesus, "the beginning of birth pangs". Mt. 24:8.

 

[JLB]

Yes, the "great tribulation" (last 3 1/2 yrs.) Don't forget the first 3 1/2 yrs. called by Jesus, "the beginning of birth pangs". Mt. 24:8.

Yes sir, I won't forget.

It may be considered tribulation as well.

I just see [the] Great Tribulation commencing with the Abomination of Desolation.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

I believe the second half of Daniel's 70th week is the Great Tribulation.


JLB

As you, JLB and Edward, believe that the last 3 1/2 years are the Great Trib. What about the first 3 1/2 yrs. The Church of Jesus Christ is involved in that period. Predominately Israel is dealt with in the last 3 1/2 yrs.

 

[Chopper]

Yes sir, I won't forget.

It may be considered tribulation as well.

I just see [the] Great Tribulation commencing with the Abomination of Desolation.


JLB

OK, the abomination of desolaton is at the mid-way point in the tribulation, separating the church age from Jacob's trouble.