IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[JLB]

As you, JLB and Edward, believe that the last 3 1/2 years are the Great Trib. What about the first 3 1/2 yrs. The Church of Jesus Christ is involved in that period. Predominately Israel is dealt with in the last 3 1/2 yrs.

Please show me the scriptures that states predominately Israel is dealt with in the last 3 1/2.

I believe that is a "mindset" that reads into the scriptures things that are not there.

I believe Israel will be dealt with, but that does not mean the Church is raptured to heaven before Daniels 70th week begins.

By bringing "Israel" into the mix, you are going to open a can of worms in an already explosive subject, that you have guided smoothly so far.

We would then need to define Israel...

I believe there is enough of what Jesus and Paul said on this subject to verify the truth in this matter.


JLB

 

[JLB]

OK, the abomination of desolaton is at the mid-way point in the tribulation, separating the church age from Jacob's trouble.

Jacobs Trouble was the Holocaust.

Jacob is a diaspora term that refers to the children of Israel, when they are not in the promised land.

The language describes the gas chambers.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Almost. But if you read it carefully you'll see where in the 1 Thess. 4:16 verse it says 'The Lord Himself...' and in the Matthew 24:31 it says that 'He will send His Angels...' Uh, that's kind of a big difference, don't you think? Let's not gloss over that little detail there. This is the very reason I believe it differentiates them as separate events.

I do agree with you that the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years and not 7 years.

Carry on.

I also believe this is evidence the two passages speak of separate events. However, I suggest that the current pop culture idea of an endtimes 'rapture' is the result of an unfortunate blending of the expectations of at least two separate events into one phenomena which, having attributes of both, is a paradox. If we divide the idea of 'rapture' into more than one originally individual events, then the paradox can resolve with one event being pre-trib, another post-trib, and even mid-trib accounted for based on perspective.

If one is unwilling to challenge their assumptions with regards to the definition of 'rapture', then this exercise will devolve into bickering over which scriptures should be elevated over other scriptures just to emphasize the view of 'rapture' already chosen.

 

[JLB]

Almost. But if you read it carefully you'll see where in the 1 Thess. 4:16 verse it says 'The Lord Himself...' and in the Matthew 24:31 it says that 'He will send His Angels...' Uh, that's kind of a big difference, don't you think? Let's not gloss over that little detail there. This is the very reason I believe it differentiates them as separate events.

I do agree with you that the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years and not 7 years.

Carry on.

The Lord Himself will command His angels.

Because the angels carry out the Lord's Command to gather His people, does not mean there are two separate gatherings.

One Gathering... at His Coming.

His Coming is very visible to all, for they will mourn.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

That is because Narwhalist puts the datine of Revelation as a proof of a post-trib position. I was answering him. Right now I am answering the most recent questions. If the post-trib position is valid, according to Narwhalist, the date of writing will be around A.D.70, but the dating of Revelation is A.D. 95-96 instead of A.D.70, therefore there is no point is believeng in post-trib.

I believe Revelation was written about 65-68AD, and suggest that failure to consider this timeframe leads to most of the confusion about its prophetic interpretation. This doesn't mean everything was over by 70AD, only that the fulfillment of the prophecy within Revelation began prior to 95-96AD, and is still being fulfilled today.

The problem of whether a 'rapture' is pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib is based on how one defines 'rapture' and 'trib'.

 

[JLB]

I believe Revelation was written about 65-68AD, and suggest that failure to consider this timeframe leads to most of the confusion about its prophetic interpretation. This doesn't mean everything was over by 70AD, only that the fulfillment of the prophecy within Revelation began prior to 95-96AD, and is still being fulfilled today.

The problem of whether a 'rapture' is pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib is based on how one defines 'rapture' and 'trib'.

Yours is a minority view, held mostly by those in the Preterist camp.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe Revelation was written about 65-68AD, and suggest that failure to consider this timeframe leads to most of the confusion about its prophetic interpretation. This doesn't mean everything was over by 70AD, only that the fulfillment of the prophecy within Revelation began prior to 95-96AD, and is still being fulfilled today.

The problem of whether a 'rapture' is pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib is based on how one defines 'rapture' and 'trib'.

We all within this thread have agreed to define it as the gathering.

The Lord will come, and Gather His people from one end of heaven to the farthest parts of the earth, and we shall ever be with the Lord, physically, whereby we see Him and are tangibly with Him.


JLB

 

[reba]

Narwhalist and /or Sinthesis This thread has shown respect can be had in the forums... Your are most welcome to start one presenting your views. I will do what i can to keep it respectful . While you are welcome to post here also....

 

[farouk]

The church is the bride of Christ.

Ephesians is a great exposition of this.

 

[Chopper]

The event called the Great Tribulation also has a Biblical name, it's Jacob's trouble. Jeremiah 30:11 speaks of this involving Israel. Daniel 12:1 speaks of a time of trouble. Israel is the theme. Am I wrong in believing that Jacobs trouble does not primarily effect the Naton of Israel? Obviously gentiles will be saved by the 144,000 and the Two witnesses.

 

[Chopper]

Narwhalist and /or Sinthesis This thread has shown respect can be had in the forums... Your are most welcome to start one presenting your views. I will do what i can to keep it respectful .

Reba, are you trying to start a new forum about what goes on here?

 

[farouk]

The event called the Great Tribulation also has a Biblical name, it's Jacob's trouble. Jeremiah 30:11 speaks of this involving Israel. Daniel 12:1 speaks of a time of trouble. Israel is the theme. Am I wrong in believing that Jacobs trouble does not primarily effect the Naton of Israel? Obviously gentiles will be saved by the 144,000 and the Two witnesses.

Matthew 24 is not about the church, which by this time the church, the bride of Christ, will have been raptured.

 

[Chopper]

Matthew 24 is not about the church, which by this time the church, the bride of Christ, will have been raptured.

OK, who is it for?

 

[Chopper]

Yours is a minority view, held mostly by those in the Preterist camp.


JLB

I agree, Two dates have been discussed by theologians. 70A.D. and 95A.D. The earlier date is held primarily by some who adopt the preterist interpretaton of Revelation. It is based largely on questionable exegesis of several passages in the book and attempts to relegate its prophetic fulfillment entirely to the period before the destruction of Jerusalem A.D.70. Those who hold to the early date see in Jerusalem's destruction the prophesied second coming of Jesus Christ in its first phase. External evidence for the earlier (Neronian) date is almost nonexistent. (MacArthur)

 

[Chopper]

Please show me the scriptures that states predominately Israel is dealt with in the last 3 1/2.

I believe that is a "mindset" that reads into the scriptures things that are not there.

I believe Israel will be dealt with, but that does not mean the Church is raptured to heaven before Daniels 70th week begins.

By bringing "Israel" into the mix, you are going to open a can of worms in an already explosive subject, that you have guided smoothly so far.

We would then need to define Israel...

I believe there is enough of what Jesus and Paul said on this subject to verify the truth in this matter.


JLB

Daniel's 70th week (Dan 12:1) certainly deals with Israel. And if so, then the Church is not there.

 

[JLB]

Daniel's 70th week (Dan 12:1) certainly deals with Israel. And if so, then the Church is not there.

If so, then the Church is not there? Why is that?

Everyone will be here on Earth at His Coming.

Are you saying the resurrection/rapture "gathering" will take place before Daniel's 70th week?

How can the resurrection take place before the end?


JLB

 

[Chopper]

If so, then the Church is not there? Why is that?

Everyone will be here on Earth at His Coming.

Are you saying the resurrection/rapture "gathering" will take place before Daniel's 70th week?

How can the resurrection take place before the end?


JLB

Listen, let me blow your mind. Actually it's quite simple! I know I'm going to get some reply's on this one. Opps, got to go for about an hour, be right back

 

[jasoncran]

Matthew 24 is not about the church, which by this time the church, the bride of Christ, will have been raptured.

ok then why read it? if the YOU there wasn't to the apostles and others? then who were the apostles? were they not saved? are they not part of the church or are they? remember that jesus did say they will sit down amongst isreal and judge them.

 

[JLB]

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand . 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

This event marker clearly shows the Coming of the Lord and the gathering of His people, occurring after the event that marks the beginning of the tribulation.

After the Abomination of desolation.

Matthew 24 is not about the church, which by this time the church, the bride of Christ, will have been raptured.

Really. I thought that His Disciples, His Church leadership just asked Him a direct question about which we are discussing.

He said His Gathering is after the Tribulation.

The scriptures teach the Resurrection/Rapture, Gathering occurs at His Coming.

Jesus says His Coming is after the Tribulation, at the end of the age.

Are you teaching us that the Resurrection occurs before the tribulation?


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Listen, let me blow your mind. Actually it's quite simple! I know I'm going to get some reply's on this one. Opps, got to go for about an hour, be right back

OK, I'm back. A very simple explanation is in order. The Church is made up of two groups of people. The serious (bride) and the not so serious (luke-warm). The Bride will be gathered just before the tribulation begins. The luke-warm will go through the first half of the trib. and be gathered at mid-trib. and Israel will go through the great trib. and be gathered at the end of the trib. There are Scriptures that back up each one. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.