IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[JLB]

I love you to brother

You already know though pre-trib camp splits up Matt 24 into two separate events.

I'm sorry I did not know that Pre-Trib folk splits Matthew 24 up into two separate events.

Please show me from Matthew 24 where this "split" occurs.

Every word that is written after the phrase "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, is placed in the category: POST TRIBULATION.

Since the phrase: they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, occurs after the phrase"Immediately after the tribulation...

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




JLB

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, Thank you brother, God bless you. You have made and directed such a good thread. This can only be the Holy Spirit which works within you, and our other brothers on the board. The Spirit is strong with you brother and much praise and Glory goes out to the Lord for His work here through you. 6 scriptures eh? Ok, brother I have them. I have spent some time on this, and listened to a lot of sermons through different pastors and taken some pretty good notes, so what I will do instead of repeating the scriptures which have already been posted is to bring out other scriptures which I believe speak of a pre-trib rapture, but have not yet been posted. I have more than 6 scriptures, but have went through them and will post the ones that are the most clear I think, and refer to the rapture in such a way that it sheds the most light possible and will bring to mind the other scriptures which have already been posted because the wording used is the same and have been discussed already so the relevance is clear and edification will be maximum for alls benefit. God bless you all as we continue.

I also have scriptures which would refute and shine light of indication of a post-trib rapture and so forth but will refrain from posting these at your request but could post them later when/if you wish to take the thread in that direction. Ok? Here we go.

John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also./(KJV)
This scripture is Jesus Himself talking, and speaks of coming and receiving His people/bride/believers unto Himself personally, that we may be with Him. At the commonly referred to 2nd coming where he stops the battle of Armageddon by destroying them and so forth, it speaks of the Angels gathering in the believers from the four winds. This coming (the rapture), Jesus Himself gathers His bride.

1 Thessalonians 1: 10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come./(KJV)
Jesus will come and deliver us out of the wrath of God which is poured out upon the earth that is in the scroll with 7 seals, the same wrath which we were promised to not to have to endure spoken of in previously posted scriptures.

Philippians 3:20-21
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself./(KJV)
We look and expect our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to appear and our bodies will be translated and we meet Him in the air!

Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;/(KJV)
More of the same, different scripture. Meshes together perfectly with others. A different author even. Let the truth be established by two or three witnesses.

Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The main harvest my brothers and sisters. We are raptured out to go to the wedding supper. THIS is actually the 2nd coming, and when He returns, and when He returns to the earth again (What most call the 2nd coming), we will be with Him!

James 5:7-9
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Here's another witness, James. There's three. He speaks of the husbandman waiting for the fruit of the earth...to receive it! That's us! Jesus is the one who receives us (in the air). Behold, he stands at the door! Be ready. Watch for Him.

Thank you Edward for those kind words. Thank you so much for your post. I hope you don't mind, I'm going to use it as an example of what I want for all posts from now on. You paid attention to what I was setting as ground rules for our next phase. It seems that you and I are on the same Holy Spirit page. Bless you my Brother with insight into what Jesus is doing in bringing out His Word on His return, and us being gathered to Him. There is one Holy Spirit, one Jesus, the Christ, and one interpretation of end times (church age).

 

[Chopper]

Good morning my Forum Friends.
I'd like for everyone to read post #169 by my good Brother Edward. He is defending his pre-trib position. Notice that he did not post anything about views on other positions, but will do that later. He posted at least 6 references to his position....THAT IS WHAT I WANT! I'm asking all of you to stick with Edward's method of posting, please! There will be plenty of time to present an opposing view, but that is NOT now. Please present your position (pre, mid, post) and at least 6 major portions of Scripture that support your position.

As each one of you post your position, Scriptures, and brief comments about YOUR position, we then will stop for a short period of time to examine each position, and then decide on the position that we feel that our Lord Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit would have us choose. I realize that our choosing could derail this thread so I'm asking Reba to closely examine all those posts to make sure that we respond as Christians and not as heathens.

Have a great day, and may our Lord Jesus Christ favor your endeavors today.

 

[JLB]

To Chopper and all the brothers on this thread.

The number one safeguard that Jesus gave the Church, to protect us from being deceived into following the man of sin, the son of perdition, the lawless one [false messiah], when he appears in the last days, is this phrase:

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


Jesus is saying: NO ONE WILL HAVE TO TELL YOU I HAVE RETURNED FOR EVERY EYE WILL SEE ME. ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS.


WARNING!!! BEWARE: Any doctrine that suggests Jesus Coming will be invisible and not seen by every person on Earth, is setting you up for DECEPTION.

Please take heed.

... For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


May God bless you and keep you.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

What should one who doesn't think the rapture is biblical do? I am neither pre nor mid nor post because I don't think the Bible addresses a rapture.

Your post is very interesting, and does have as much influence, in my opinion, as the others. There must be some Scriptures that you feel support your position. If you don't have a Scriptural background, but just a "feeling" or other emotions, I'm sorry, but I don't think it is what I'm looking for. There MUST be Scripture Narwhalist, search until you find some, and may the Lord give you wisdom.

 

[stovebolts]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Free, this is exactly why we don't use Hermeneutics............ God never said take cultural consideration when examining scriptures. He said compare spiritual with spirital as the Holy Spirit our teacher. Line upon Line...... Like things with like things.

Never once did God mention taking culture, time, customs into consideration.
Do you see in that verse Jesus continuing down?

Does Hermeneutics make you add that to the scripture Free?

Do you even care about the warning not to add to the scripture?

If the Word does not say it, we don't imply it!!! or add it!!!

You know the biggest problem people have with hearing God is that they do hear, but add in things on their own God did not say.

It's messed me up more than once, but I have learned. If you had on your mind to buy something expensive but was not sure, then the Lord speaks and tells you to go to the store that sells that thing, you don't add "Go ahead and buy it" Your direction was just to go to that store, nothing else.

Mike.

Brother Mike,

I don't consider what our Brother Free is saying as "Adding" to the Word of God. He is simply putting the context of the scriptures within it's cultural setting. If anything, it adds dimension to the text which helps one better interpret the texts. Adding the cultural significance to a text is a sign of good exegesis, not "adding to the scriptures".

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You asked if there is a rapture and according to the scriptures, I'd say the answer was yes. The scriptures are pretty clear in pointing out that Jesus would take/gather his saints from the earth and from the grave to 'forever be with him.'

As far as who is/WAS to be party to this happening, the scriptures seem to be clear that it was the sealed saints that were faithful servants of Jesus. It was this number that was to make up the "bride" of Anointed Jesus and would get the benefit and not only being with Jesus but also reigning with him as well. These individuals were beneficiaries of the "1st resurrection" and are set apart from the "guests" that the Lamb has invited the the wedding feast.

 

[JLB]

You asked if there is a rapture and according to the scriptures, I'd say the answer was yes. The scriptures are pretty clear in pointing out that Jesus would take/gather his saints from the earth and from the grave to 'forever be with him.'

As far as who is/WAS to be party to this happening, the scriptures seem to be clear that it was the sealed saints that were faithful servants of Jesus. It was this number that was to make up the "bride" of Anointed Jesus and would get the benefit and not only being with Jesus but also reigning with him as well. These individuals were beneficiaries of the "1st resurrection" and are set apart from the "guests" that the Lamb has invited the the wedding feast.

Scripture says -

But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

The scripture says, those who are Christ's will go.

When? At His Coming.


JLB

 

[Free]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Free, this is exactly why we don't use Hermeneutics............ God never said take cultural consideration when examining scriptures. He said compare spiritual with spirital as the Holy Spirit our teacher. Line upon Line...... Like things with like things.

Never once did God mention taking culture, time, customs into consideration.

God never said anything about cultural context because for those whom the books of the Bible were originally written, they lived in that cultural context. So it goes without saying that something like wouldn't be mentioned.

For us, at this point in history, so far removed from the events, the cultural, and the language, it is absolutely necessary that we employ proper hermeneutics to get an understanding of what was said. Only those who are not serious about the truth or think they they know all truth deny the use of hermeneutics.

Do you see in that verse Jesus continuing down?

Do you see in that verse Jesus going back up, or are we all just going to live in the clouds?

Does Hermeneutics make you add that to the scripture Free?

If, in the cultural context, to the original audience, Paul meant that we will meet Jesus in the "air" (that is another discussion in itself), and return to earth with him, then that is precisely how it is to be understood. It simply would not make sense for it to mean two completely different things to two different groups of people, at different times in history. If that can be the case, then it could mean innumerable things, depending on to whom and at what point in history.

This is precisely why hermeneutics are absolutely necessary.

Do you even care about the warning not to add to the scripture?

This doesn't deserve any other response than this.

If the Word does not say it, we don't imply it!!! or add it!!!

And yet I have shown how you did the same as me, so how is that only I have apparently added to Scripture?

 

[Free]

Hi Brother Free. During Jesus' reign, what makes you think it will be from earth instead of heaven? In Rev 4:2 His throne is set there, His saints are being gathered there to rule with Him over the earth, and they will conjointly hand out judgment.

Would glorified ruling saints be mingling with unsaved mankind during Christ's thousand reign? I ask this considering the following scripture.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, and Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Thanks in Jesus' name.

I would first question the use of "during Jesus' reign." He has been reigning since his resurrection. It seems that many people Jesus will reign at some point for a thousand years, when Scripture says that the believers will come to life and reign "with him for a thousand years." So it is possible that it is saying Jesus will reign for a thousand years with the believers, but I believe the better reading is that, as currently reigning king, the believers will join with him at some point and reign with him for a thousand years. In other words, the "thousand year reign" is referring to the duration believers will reign with Jesus, not the duration of Jesus' reign.

Secondly, I would question just what is meant by "heaven," as though heaven and earth are two distinct locations in space. There is more to say on this but I'll have to go back to my resources, which I can't do at the moment.

 

[turnorburn]

Won't spend much time on this subject concerning the rapture doctrine, just one question I've asked numerous times without a reply.. O.k. ready? The "Mark" does the mark come before or after this rapture?

Thanks..

tob

 

[Chopper]

This is a test....I think the thread is unlocked at last.

 

[Chopper]

Won't spend much time on this subject concerning the rapture doctrine, just one question I've asked numerous times without a reply.. O.k. ready? The "Mark" does the mark come before or after this rapture?

Thanks..

tob

If you are pre-trib, it comes after. If you are mid-trib, it comes before. I'm still looking for Scriptures on your position.

 

[Chopper]

Hey folks, I see a lot of chatter, but I see no position with 6 Scriptures to back it up. Come on now, do I have to ask Reba to delete all posts that don't follow our rules? Post your position (pre, mid, post) at least 6 Scriptures that support your position. THAT'S IT FOR NOW!

 

[turnorburn]

Most here know I've never believed in the rapture doctrine, my question has always been directed at those that think he's coming before the tribulation..

tob

 

[Chopper]

Most here know I've never believed in the rapture doctrine, my question has always been directed at those that think he's coming before the tribulation..

tob

I am interested in your's and ezrider's position. Can you supply Scriptures?

 

[JLB]

Hey folks, I see a lot of chatter, but I see no position with 6 Scriptures to back it up. Come on now, do I have to ask Reba to delete all posts that don't follow our rules? Post your position (pre, mid, post) at least 6 Scriptures that support your position. THAT'S IT FOR NOW!

"By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established." 2 Corinthians 13:1

The main idea in these scriptures is that the "coming" of the Lord is associated with the gathering and a visible appearance of the Lord.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall , and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken . 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27

The saints Coming with the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection. A visible manifestation of the Lord.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken : 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other . Matthew 24:29-31

The Coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection. A visible manifestation of the Lord.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring ; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken . 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass , then look up , and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh . Luke 21:25-27

A visible manifestation where the tribes of the earth will see Him.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand . 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8


The Coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection. A visible manifestation of the Lord.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep . 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

The saints Coming with the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee , like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come , and all the saints with thee. Zechariah 14:4-5

The saints Coming with the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection. A visible manifestation of the Lord.



JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Sorry..

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

tob

 

[Chopper]

"By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established." 2 Corinthians 13:1

The main idea in these scriptures is that the "coming" of the Lord is associated with the gathering and a visible appearance of the Lord.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall , and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken . 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27

The saints Coming with the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection. A visible manifestation of the Lord.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken : 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other . Matthew 24:29-31

The Coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection. A visible manifestation of the Lord.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring ; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken . 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass , then look up , and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh . Luke 21:25-27

A visible manifestation where the tribes of the earth will see Him.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand . 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8


The Coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection. A visible manifestation of the Lord.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep . 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

The saints Coming with the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee , like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come , and all the saints with thee. Zechariah 14:4-5

The saints Coming with the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection. A visible manifestation of the Lord.



JLB

Thank you JLB for your post, now if the others will just post their positions, we can move forward.

 

[Chopper]

Sorry..

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

tob

Thank you my Friend, I have recorded your text for (how should I qualify you, post-trib?)" In 2 Corinthians 13:1 it says "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established". Therefore I would like at least two more references, more if you can.