Is TULIP biblical?

[eddif]

I don’t really understand your point.


Do you realize that Calvinism promotes the teaching that the “elect” are a group of people that were elected for salvation, and were somehow “saved“ , regerenated, and born again before they ever heard and believe the message of salvation through Jesus Christ?


IOW’s their salvation had nothing to do with believing in Jesus and the Gospel. They believe they were saved before hearing and believing.


When asked how these “elect” were born again, without ever hearing of Jesus Christ or His work on the cross, then can’t answer.


Brightfame specifically promotes that men must first be saved, then later they can believe.




JLB

My point:
Every Calvinist is not messed up. Some may be. The letters to the 7 churches cover both good and bad in churches.

I agree our present thread we are on has TULIP error in full swing.

Maybe I am a wimp, but I am trying to address the issues and not the people.

Many Calvinists )so called are not TULIP fanatics.

I think TULIP is what we avoid and not what we promote.

I am not against JLB hang in there.

eddif

 

[Iconoclast]

You didn’t answer the question.


Please explain to us in this thread, how a person becomes saved, before they hear and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.


Your “claim” is that a person must be saved first before they can believe the gospel.


So please explain how it is a person becomes saved if they have never heard nor believed in Jesus Christ.



To wondering, and @ediff as well as everyone in this thread:

This question always goes unanswered by brightfame and everyone who promotes the teachings of Calvinism.

To be saved without ever hearing and believing the message of Jesus Christ, is a “Christ-less” gospel of man

You and others have been answered several times. You do not understand or accept the answers given.Repentance , faith, and belief happen simultaneously. What is so hard to grasp. It was promised before the world was, and revealed and made known in time.
This is what you deny; 2tim1
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

.







JLB

 

[eddif]

You and others have been answered several times. You do not understand or accept the answers given.Repentance , faith, and belief happen simultaneously. What is so hard to grasp. It was promised before the world was, and revealed and made known in time.
This is what you deny; 2tim1
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

The opposition in your same post.

Repentance , faith, and belief happen simultaneously. What is so hard to grasp.

they sure are not usually presented together.
John the Baptist - repentance - before Jesus
Then
Jesus arrived and preached
Then at Pentecost the Lifegiving Spirit came
Then at the last trump more changes occur.

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Given as a promise in the past will be done.
But
It being manifest is a little different.

In the fullness of time Jesus came forth born of a Virgin. The word became Flesh.

The flesh of Jesus became a life giving Spirit.

We will be changed at the last trump.

The Resurrection is not already past.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

I gave you the response Im going to give you, take it or leave it

I fear that you don't respond to many questions because you can't.
I've heard the above from you many times.
When YOU ask a question, it always gets answered.

This is your response in post 345:
I already stated that. One cannot hear Gods words unless they are born of God Jn 8:43,47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

It would SEEM to be a good verse, but, unfortunately, it does not take into account the rest of scripture.

John 8:43-47
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?
47Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
In reading the above, we have to keep in mind 2 important verses:

1.
Romans 6:16
16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Listen carefully to what Paul is saying...
When we PRESENT OURSELVES to someone....
we are slaves to the one WE OBEY.

We Present Ourselves
We obey

Nowhere in that scripture does it state that someone (even God) decrees/ordains/predistinates something for us.
It states that WE PRESENT OURSELVES...
OURSELVES

And it state that we OBEY
WE obey.

It's up to each one of us, individually, to present ourselves to God or the evil one,
and it's up to us to obey the one we want to obey.
That will make us the child of God or the child of the evil one.

2.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.
14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.


Persons that have not accepted the sacrifice of Jesus and are not walking in the Spirit of God, cannot understand the words of God....in fact, they are foolishness to them.
The lost do not understand Christianity.
Those that are born again understand the things of the Spirit.

John 8:43-47 is referring to the above two scriptures.

If you read all carefully, you'll find that nowhere is it taught that God forced anything upon anyone and that God did not predestinate any action and that our actions depend on OURSELVES - some with the help of the Holy Spirit of course.

 

[GodsGrace]

You and others have been answered several times. You do not understand or accept the answers given.Repentance , faith, and belief happen simultaneously. What is so hard to grasp. It was promised before the world was, and revealed and made known in time.
This is what you deny; 2tim1
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

It's tiring to keep hearing that ALL OTHER CHRISTIANS except the reformed DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

Maybe WE understand Icon.
Maybe it's YOU that does not understand??

You're appealing to 2 Timothy 1.....
Let's see what it states:

2 Timothy 1:6-11
6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
7For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.
8So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner. Rather, join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God.
9He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
11And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
verse 6: Again, we are told TO TAKE ACTION....to fan into flames the gift of God....our salvation, our faith, and in Timothy's case, his pastoral ministry.
How did Timothy receive this pastoral gift? Through the laying on of hands. A human action...nothing that God forced on to Timothy. No speaking of Timothy being predestinated but that Paul gave to him this ministry by the laying on of hands and by teaching him the gospel.

Verse 7: The Holy Spirit, which Timothy had received, gives the power to proclaim the word.

Verse 9: Salvation is initiated by God, Ephesians 2:8... and not a process by which our works count.
God calls us to a holy life, to cooperate with His grace.

Verse 10: And this was all planned before the beginning of time.

Verse 11: What is the good news of the gospel?
That God will choose who will be saved and who will be passed over into damnation?
Doesn't sound like good news to me.


No. THIS is the good news:
John 3:16
16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace]

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. that is why he moved with fear.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

So is righteousness by faith
or is it because God predestinated a person to have it?

And look at Noah....
He found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
So HE MOVED with fear.....Noah took action. He didn't wait for God to do everything.
Or did God predestinate Noah to move with fear?

So was Noah righteous because he listened to God, moved with fear, and prepared an ark....
Or is this all just wasted breath because GOD DID EVEYTHING?

And righteousness, in that case, DOES NOT EVEN EXIST.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would tone down (everyone)

I attended a country church that was supposed to be Calvinistic.
Half (?)had no idea what TULIP was.

The sermons (in hindsight) were a Baptist / Confession /Ceremonial mix. No one seemed offended. There were however a few that were very Calvinistic in our area.

Correct Theology seems to be a lot of Bible study, prayer, low self ego, and what are you baptized into.

Get um: lost, saved, empowered. I suppose I would have to say there are a few (lol) things that I discuss that very few seem to have noticed.

The comment by some:
Whoever will may come
Is over the gate of heaven

If you walk through the gate and look back
You read:
Saved from the foundation of the world, is (on the heaven side of the gate).

Pure human thought? Was not my statement.

One group is by faith
The other is through faith.

There is one name under Heaven whereby you may be saved. His name is Jesus

Our battle is not against flesh and blood.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Sure no one was offended.
The pastor probably never mentioned calvinism.
He never mentioned what Calvin taught.
Because this would turn many away.

Look at Iconoclast - he thinks he's a calvinist but insists it's OTHERS that don't understand it.
It's like a Catholic making up their very own doctrine and then passing it off as Catholic doctrine.

Do you think a person hears the gospel and accepts it FIRST,
or do you think a person has to be SAVED FIRST and then he can BECOME SAVED?

Does belief come first
or does salvation come first?

 

[eddif]

So is righteousness by faith
or is it because God predestinated a person to have it?

And look at Noah....
He found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
So HE MOVED with fear.....Noah took action. He didn't wait for God to do everything.
Or did God predestinate Noah to move with fear?

So was Noah righteous because he listened to God, moved with fear, and prepared an ark....
Or is this all just wasted breath because GOD DID EVEYTHING?

And righteousness, in that case, DOES NOT EVEN EXIST.

Let me add what I inferred in 348

How did God get through to Noah. There is a specific path explained in scripture
IMHO. Not doctrine of man but by design of God.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Noah looked at creation and heard God thought (?) (God saw his creation as very good. Romans 1:20)
Human as well as animal. So in agreement Noah agreed with God. Noah built a boat to carry:
Elephants
Rhino
Buzzards
Clean and unclean alike.

Noah did not just think just clean but both.

We need the idea we can take sinners into heaven. We are not the boat , but Jesus is the way. Now we work to carry sinners to heaven. Jesus is the way to be born again.

Not a smaller boat for our little group.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Iconoclast]

It's tiring to keep hearing that ALL OTHER CHRISTIANS except the reformed DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

Maybe WE understand Icon.
Maybe it's YOU that does not understand??

You're appealing to 2 Timothy 1.....
Let's see what it states:

2 Timothy 1:6-11
6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
7For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.
8So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner. Rather, join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God.
9He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
11And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
verse 6: Again, we are told TO TAKE ACTION..

No we are not told that, this is for Timothy here, not you.

..to fan into flames the gift of God....our salvation, our faith, and in Timothy's case, his pastoral ministry.
How did Timothy receive this pastoral gift? Through the laying on of hands. A human action...nothing that God forced on to Timothy. No speaking of Timothy being predestinated but that Paul gave to him this ministry by the laying on of hands and by teaching him the gospel.

Verse 7: The Holy Spirit, which Timothy had received, gives the power to proclaim the word.

Verse 9: Salvation is initiated by God, Ephesians 2:8... and not a process by which our works count.
God calls us to a holy life, to cooperate with His grace.

The verse does not say that. why pervert the text?

Verse 10: And this was all planned before the beginning of time.

It does not say that! It says literally this grace was given to us In Christ before time. You pervert it, so you can try and dance around it.

Verse 11: What is the good news of the gospel?

God saves sinners In Christ.

That God will choose who will be saved and who will be passed over into damnation?
Doesn't sound like good news to me.


No. THIS is the good news:
John 3:16
16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Sure no one was offended.
The pastor probably never mentioned calvinism.
He never mentioned what Calvin taught.
Because this would turn many away.

Sheep are drawn to the truths of grace, goats reject it.

Look at Iconoclast - he thinks he's a calvinist but insists it's OTHERS that don't understand it.

Because you do not get it, is no reason to project that on me.

 

[eddif]

2 Peter 1:5 kjv
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge:
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godline
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither bebarren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What we do not want:
1. Total Depravity.
If fear of the Lord hits and faith in God begins. That is great, because we can add other things. Total depravity shuts God out.
2 Unconditional Election
We want to meet all the the conditions God wants us to have.
If we hand Christ in us we have favor ofGod.
3. Limited Atonement.
We want full atinement, and not Just the law of Moses but eternal life in Christ Jesus.
4. Irresistible Grace.
We want God working in us to will and do of His good pleasure. Not an irreisstible force pushing into us, but desire to open the door.
5. Perseverance of Saints
We want the perseverance of God working in us. His life giving Spirit.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. that is why he moved with fear.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

So we see the pattern.

Noah heard and obeyed.

The same pattern in the New Testament.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:14-16



Only those who hear and obey the Gospel are saved.





JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

2 Peter 1:5 kjv
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge:
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godline
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither bebarren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What we do not want:
1. Total Depravity.
If fear of the Lord hits and faith in God begins. That is great, because we can add other things. Total depravity shuts God out.
2 Unconditional Election
We want to meet all the the conditions God wants us to have.
If we hand Christ in us we have favor ofGod.
3. Limited Atonement.
We want full atinement, and not Just the law of Moses but eternal life in Christ Jesus.
4. Irresistible Grace.
We want God working in us to will and do of His good pleasure. Not an irreisstible force pushing into us, but desire to open the door.
5. Perseverance of Saints
We want the perseverance of God working in us. His life giving Spirit.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

You still do NOT understand all 5 points. You are commenting on things you not grasp.

 

[Iconoclast]

So we see the pattern.

Noah heard and obeyed.

The same pattern in the New Testament.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:14-16



Only those who hear and obey the Gospel are saved.





JLB

The reason Noah obeyed is God's grace that was given to him. He did not obey first, then get grace.

 

[eddif]

You still do NOT understand all 5 points. You are commenting on things you not grasp.

So take in my mentality and put it in my language
eddif

 

[Iconoclast]

So take in my mentality and put it in my language
eddif

Ed what have you read to learn about these specific teachings?
Have you looked online to see if any teaching is available?

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

Noah heard and obeyed.

Because he was born of God

 

[JLB]

God saves sinners In Christ

Salvation is for those obey Jesus Christ.

My point:
Every Calvinist is not messed up. Some may be. The letters to the 7 churches cover both good and bad in churches.

The teaching or doctrine of Calvinism is what I am exposing as unbiblical. Not the Calvinist people.




JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB



Because he was born of God

When did Noah become born of God?



JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Free
You didn't respond to my post #263 in this thread."

I have given the text. That’s all that is needed—just that verse. That verse clearly says that the only ones who believed were “appointed” or “ordained” to believe. You have not yet addressed the use of that word in that context.

You have the cart before the horse, He isn't saying they were "appointed to believe."

He saying believers are destined for a certain end. They are appointed to eternal life for believing in Jesus.

as many as had been appointed to eternal life....believed.

God says this all through the Book, from Genesis to Revelation, he pre-ordained before the universe as we know it came into existence.

Why? What does it have to do with Paul and Barnabas in Antioch of Pisidia?

Because those gentiles rejoiced that the Jewish scriptures made mention of them.

You do realize this is some 15 years after Pentecost, after the start of Acts, yes?

Yes I do. Please remember Gods' disciples were being persecuted and they were on foot. They did not have the resources we have today. The gentiles were waiting to hear the words of this apostle.

And that shows what, exactly?

That prophecy is being fulfilled right before their eyes. You think that's inconsequential? How about this,

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world Mt.24:14 NKJV

I find that a bold claim and guess what? It came to pass.

What does this have to do with Acts 13:48?

It has to do with how some people when asked to come told God no because they had more important things to do.
Then, God decided to fill up the hall with the nobodies.

Then God decided? God was waiting for a response and then decided? Really?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Tulip is the Gospel, and penal substitution as it pertained to Christ dying for the sins of Gods people is taught. 1 Cor 15:3-4. So please dont deny penal substitution here in this forum. Take that somewhere else, for Christ substitutionary death is foundational to Christianity and its Blasphemous to deny it. Consider this a warning friend

And my response which is unanswered was,

Tulip is the Gospel, and penal substitution as it pertained to Christ dying for the sins of Gods people is taught. 1 Cor 15:3-4. So please dont deny penal substitution here in this forum. Take that somewhere else, for Christ substitutionary death is foundational to Christianity and its Blasphemous to deny it. Consider this a warning friend
Click to expand...

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Cor.15:3

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 1Cor.11:23

Ought not Christ to have suffered these thingsand to enter into his glory? Lk.24:26

contradiction of sinners against himself, Heb.12:3

Suffering betrayal. Suffering contradiction against himself.

Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah: Psa.2:2 YLT[/B]

So TULIP is the gospel for people who don't understand that the "gospel Paul delivered" said Jesus was betrayed by sinners.