Is TULIP biblical?

[Iconoclast]

And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Joshua 24:15


Each person must choose to either serve the LORD or serve other gods.


Choose this day whom you will serve.




JLB

Choose says nothing about a mans will. Men in jail make choices but they are not free.

 

[Iconoclast]

What does Unconditional Election mean to you?


The condition in the Bible to be saved is believe.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Do you agree a person must believe in order to be saved?








JLB

Yes ,sinners must believe and all sinners given by the Father to the Son will believe, Jn3:15,16 says everyone believing shall not perish.The question about election is, that God chose a multitude of sinners before they were ever born, or before they believed in order to save them....no conditions, just mercy.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes ,sinners must believe and all sinners given by the Father to the Son will believe, Jn3:15,16 says everyone believing shall not perish.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jn.3;16-17

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Eze.33:11

The question about election is, that God chose a multitude of sinners before they were ever born, or before they believed in order to save them...

The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” Jn.19:35-36

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn.20:31

I have told you these things before they happen so that when they do happen, you will believe. Jn.14:25 NLT[/B]

..no conditions, just mercy.

Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Mt.18:3 ESV

Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, Act.3:19 ESV

No, I tell you! But unless you repent, you will all perish as well! Lk.3:13 ASV

 

[JLB]

Choose says nothing about a mans will. Men in jail make choices but they are not free.

Each person has the God given ability to choose to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ or choose not to.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Making a choice to believe or not and or obey or not is an act of our will.


For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:38-40

• this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life;

JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes ,sinners must believe and all sinners given by the Father to the Son will believe, Jn3:15,16 says everyone believing shall not perish.The question about election is, that God chose a multitude of sinners before they were ever born, or before they believed in order to save them....no conditions, just mercy.

Whoever believes will be saved.

Whoever does not believe will not be saved.


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

Each of us must choose to do God’s will or our own will.



For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:38-40



JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jn.3;16-17

Here is a more literal rendering;
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

That is what it says, everyone believing, and continuing on in believing.

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Eze.33:11

God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, true, but nevertheless they will go into second death for sure, outside of Christ.

The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” Jn.19:35-36

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn.20:31

Yes, for sure. God has had the men write scripture as one of the means of grace.

I have told you these things before they happen so that when they do happen, you will believe. Jn.14:25 NLT

Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Mt.18:3 ESV

Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, Act.3:19 ESV

No, I tell you! But unless you repent, you will all perish as well! Lk.3:13 ASV[/B]

Yes, God has commanded that all men everywhere repent. They are commanded to do what they cannot do naturally.
The man with the withered hand was told to stretch forth his hand. Lazaras was commanded to come out of the grave.Same exact thing/

 

[Iconoclast]

Whoever believes will be saved.

yes indeed. If them to.

Whoever does not believe will not be saved.

Correct...everyone starts in unbelief, God savingly calls and enables those He has purposed to save.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

Each of us must choose to do God’s will or our own will.

The problem for unsaved men is they do not want to do this, unless and until God gives them a new heart.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:38-40



JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

Each person has the God given ability to choose to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ or choose not to.

This is not taught anywhere in scripture, in fact the very idea is contrary to scriptural teaching. Adam was not wounded but slain at the fall. Mankind is dead and bound spiritually . Men love darkness ,rather than evil. Men need a new heart and new life, which is the work of God.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Making a choice to believe or not and or obey or not is an act of our will.

Not what scripture declares, look here;
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You said it is an act of our will, God says not of the will of man.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:38-40

• this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life;

Yes, once again....every believing one.........It does not say every person will believe.

JLB

 

[eddif]

Whoever believes will be saved.

Whoever does not believe will not be saved.


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

Each of us must choose to do God’s will or our own will.



For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:38-40



JLB

In red is the rainbow I was talking about in 131 and 133 the promise

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

yes indeed. If them to.

What does “if them to” mean.

 

[JLB]

Correct...everyone starts in unbelief, God savingly calls and enables those He has purposed to save.

God sent His Son to save the world.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Those who believe will be saved.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

• God’s will is that not any should perish but that all would

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

• not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

What does “if them to” mean.

I think it was an autocorrect on my phone, lol
Let me clarify. you said; Whoever believes will be saved. yes, on the last day there will be believers and unbelievers.
All men start out as unbelievers.
They are not neutral. They love sin and hate the biblical God.
God saves sinners from the sin of unbelief as well as all other sins.

 

[Iconoclast]

God sent His Son to save the world.

God has never purposed to save everyone in the world. God has purposed to save men scattered all over the world, not just jewish men. The wording of Gen 12:3 is clear. God's plan saves sinners....worldwide.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Those who believe will be saved. You seem to think the word...WHOSOEVER, somehow suspends God's purpose in electing mercy. It does not.Men as we have showed are not capable of believing by their self will.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

okay

• God’s will is that not any should perish but that all would

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

• not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

Every single person in 2Pet.3:9 will be saved, as Peter writes about the elect of God.

JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Here is a more literal rendering;
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

It still says.....God so loved the world.
It does not say God loved only certain people and since leaving people with no hope is unloving, you're view of our Father is wrong,

let us reason together, saith the LORD: Isa.1:18 KJV

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

I been saying our Father wanted the world to believe, so His Son came and showed exactly how merciful He is to sinners,

And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!” Lk9:35 NKJV
Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. Col.1:15 NLT

That is what it says, everyone believing, and continuing on in believing.

Of course faithfulness is required for salvation. No argument there.

God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, true,

Neither is He indifferent to any lost person.

but nevertheless they will go into second death for sure, outside of Christ.

And we should become like Jesus who is just as our Father is. God warns all. And,

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Eze.3:18 KJV

Now, if you have a translation that says different, throw it out with rest of the trash.

Yes, for sure. God has had the men write scripture as one of the means of grace.

That's why I cited,

these are written that you may believe Jn.20:31

Yes, God has commanded that all men everywhere repent. They are commanded to do what they cannot do naturally.

Like cmmanding a child to do something inpossible for a child to do and then punishing the child for it.

I'm thankful my Father isn't like the apathetic god you describe.

The man with the withered hand was told to stretch forth his hand.
Lazaras was commanded to come out of the grave.Same exact thing/

Now a great many of the Jews knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also, because on account of him many of the Jews went away and believed in Jesus.Jn.12:9-11 NKJV

 

[Iconoclast]

It still says.....God so loved the world.

That He gave....

It does not say God loved only certain people

Does it say He is going to save every person in the world?

and since leaving people with no hope is unloving, you're view of our Father is wrong,

My "view "comes from actual verses, not carnal reasoning. You are not using scripture properly/

let us reason together, saith the LORD: Isa.1:18 KJV

What do you think that is saying?

I been saying our Father wanted the world to believe, so His Son came and showed exactly how merciful He is to sinners,

Look at what you are saying! The Father does not give the whole world to the Son! Jn6:37 does not say the whole world is given to the Son, because everyone given shall come.

And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!” Lk9:35 NKJV
Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. Col.1:15 NLT

Yes, but He does not say what you claim!

Of course faithfulness is required for salvation. No argument there.

ok, good we can agree on some things.J

Neither is He indifferent to any lost person.

lets use scripture;
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

And we should become like Jesus who is just as our Father is. God warns all. And,

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Eze.3:18 KJV

Now, if you have a translation that says different, throw it out with rest of the trash.

We are to faithfully preach truth to all men.

That's why I cited,

these are written that you may believe Jn.20:31

Like cmmanding a child to do something inpossible for a child to do and then punishing the child for it.

I'm thankful my Father isn't like the apathetic god you describe.

The biblical God I describe seeks and saves every single person He intends to...far from apathetic/

Now a great many of the Jews knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also, because on account of him many of the Jews went away and believed in Jesus.Jn.12:9-11 NKJV

 

[journeymanisnothing]

That He gave....

him who warns from heaven. Heb.12:25

Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

Does it say He is going to save every person in the world?

Only those who become as little children.

Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it. Mk.10;15

He doesn't mean become smaller sized depraved people.

My "view "comes from actual verses, not carnal reasoning. You are not using scripture properly/

What do you think that is saying?

It means God wants sinners to understand, "If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” Isa.1:19-20

Look at what you are saying! The Father does not give the whole world to the Son!

He owns it already and always has,

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him. Col.1:16

Jn6:37 does not say the whole world is given to the Son, because everyone given shall come.

No, Jesus means anyone who understood how God truly is will come to Him,
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Jn.6:45 ESV

Yes, but He does not say what you claim!

God said, "This is My Son. Listen to My Son."
Your belief that people are born with no means of learning about God isn't true.

lets use scripture;
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Some wanted to make Him King of a temporary world where sin would continue,
Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself. Jn.6:15 RSV

We are to faithfully preach truth to all men.

I know and I understand why. Jesus wants sinners to come to Him and learn about Him and His Father because

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way TO SAVE HIS LIFE the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Eze.3:18

Now, if you have a translation that says different it's wrong.

The biblical God I describe seeks and saves every single person He intends to...

Here's what our Father intends,

People who conceal their sins will not prosper, but if they confess and turn from them, they will receive mercy. Pro.28:13
NLT
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn.1:8-9 NIV

far from apathetic/

Calvanism describes God as someone who gives most sinners no oppirtunity to be saved and then destroys them.
Like a father who has a 3 year old son who walks into teaffic while dad sits there and does nothing to stop it.

Most sinners aren't completely depraved,
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is inheaven give good things to them that ask him? Mt.7:11 KJV

Calvanists believe no sinner can understand anything about the gospel and repent. Calvinists are wrong.

 

[jasonc]

If reasoning alone worked .
Then arguing with jw all day everyday would have that cult gone.

No one ,not one person ever reasoned me to abandon the non trinitarian position I had and all of that cult .

God used my poor choices to break me and sent me upon invitation to a church and people trying to witness to me about the gospel to change me .

I simply became humble and asked God what is truthful in the Word. The Trinity was simply a leading to the verse about the Godhead and I was hearing the Spirit say I am a Trinity .

The human mind can't comprehend these

God immortal ,dying and being raised ,
The nature of the Son and the Other two persons co equal ,co eternal .

Not needing us at all . In short

 

[Iconoclast]

him who warns from heaven. Heb.12:25

good verse

Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

And they killed Him.

Only those who become as little children.

Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it. Mk.10;15

He doesn't mean become smaller sized depraved people.

It means a saving result will be a simple childlike trust

It means God wants sinners to understand, "If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” Isa.1:19-20

They were being reminded to obey as they said they would

He owns it already and always has,

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him. Col.1:16

yes, He owns all men

No, Jesus means anyone who understood how God truly is will come to Him,
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Jn.6:45 ESV

yes, but in 6:37, all men are not given, the whole world was not given to the Son

God said, "This is My Son. Listen to My Son."
Your belief that people are born with no means of learning about God isn't true.

the scripture teaches it explicitly...man by wisdom did not know God 1 cor1

Some wanted to make Him King of a temporary world where sin would continue,
Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself. Jn.6:15 RSV

I know and I understand why. Jesus wants sinners to come to Him and learn about Him and His Father because

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way TO SAVE HIS LIFE the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Eze.3:18

Now, if you have a translation that says different it's wrong.

Here's what our Father intends,

We are to faithfully proclaim truth and warn the ungodly

People who conceal their sins will not prosper, but if they confess and turn from them, they will receive mercy. Pro.28:13
NLT
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn.1:8-9 NIV

Calvanism describes God as someone who gives most sinners no oppirtunity to be saved and then destroys them.
Like a father who has a 3 year old son who walks into teaffic while dad sits there and does nothing to stop it.

You like others seek to blame God for mens sin

Most sinners aren't completely depraved,
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is inheaven give good things to them that ask him? Mt.7:11 KJV

Calvanists believe no sinner can understand anything about the gospel and repent. Calvinists are wrong.

Biblical Calvinists are just that...biblical, At this point you do not see it, but attack the truth.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

good verse

Yez and the point is don't reject what Jesus Who is from Heaven said, because people died when a man like Moses preached the gospel.

Paul said Moses gave the Israelites the law to humble them.,

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Heb.4:2

the law was our school master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal.3:24

Paul means faith that Jesus will forgive us for our sins against Him, against God.

Are Calvinists are confused by what Moses said?

And they killed Him.

I know. Our blessed Savior was not willing to have them executed for violating the Law of Moses. You understand by persecuting Jesus they were persecuting God. They just weren't aware of it.

And if you don't believe that Jesus is God fine. They still put an innocent man to death in violation of Moses law.

It means a saving result will be a simple childlike trust

That's what it means to me, but doesn't Calvinism believe children are totally depraved?

I'm asking you seriously. What does "turn and become as little children" mean to you as a Calvinist?

They were being reminded to obey as they said they would

God wants individuals to keep the law in mind our own minds so that we remember our need for God's mercy and regard our neighbors accordingly,

Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Mt.22:37-40 NIV

yes, He owns all men

So be homest. What would you do if you owned all men and someone spit on you or slapped you in the face or tried nailing you to cross?

yes, but in 6:37, all men are not given, the whole world was not given to the

And Jn.6:37 doesn't mean God gives people to Jesus against the persons will.

the scripture teaches it explicitly...man by wisdom did not know God 1 cor1

But look at the way he's using "the wisdom of this world." The believers were saying, I follow Paul or, I folliw Apollos

And this "folllowin a man
Paul is talking about people who left the wisdom of God in favor of worshiping idols.

We are to faithfully proclaim truth and warn the ungodly

For what purpose?

You like others seek to blame God for mens sin

I'm blaming your teachers for misrepresenting Jesus' sacrifice

Biblical Calvinists are just that...biblical, At this point you do not see it, but attack the truth.

Aftee men accusedJesusif being cursed, they tortured and murdered Him.
Now those men long dead will be standing in front of him at judgment day.

 

[eddif]

Romans 3:30 kjv
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

We sure suffer to understand.
Off in the future? We want to get the justification done right now. The problem is God is the one who will do this. In the meantime we see through a glass darkly.

Mississippi redneck
eddif