Is TULIP biblical?

[JLB]

This is not taught anywhere in scripture, in fact the very idea is contrary to scriptural teaching.

So You are saying Adam had no choice but to sin?

Adam and Eve, had a choice to obey God or not.

They chose to not to obey God.

Choice comes from the will in man.

Jesus had the same choice.

And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
Luke 22:41

Men need a new heart and new life, which is the work of God.

It all begins with the choice to believe.





JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

Yez and the point is don't reject what Jesus Who is from Heaven said, because people died when a man like Moses preached the gospel.

Hebrews 12.25-29 was written so the Hebrews should not be apostates

Paul said Moses gave the Israelites the law to humble them.,

Where did Paul say that? What about those who lived before Israel was a nation?

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Heb.4:2

The word preached unto them condemned them even further.

the law was our school master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal.3:24

That was one purpose of the law.

Paul means faith that Jesus will forgive us for our sins against Him, against God.

. Not all men have faith.

Are Calvinists are confused by what Moses said?

Not at all. They understand it.

I know. Our blessed Savior was not willing to have them executed for violating the Law of Moses. You understand by persecuting Jesus they were persecuting God. They just weren't aware of it.

All who go into second death will die under the law.

And if you don't believe that Jesus is God fine.

Who denied Jesus is God?

They still put an innocent man to death in violation of Moses law.

That's what it means to me, but doesn't Calvinism believe children are totally depraved?

All men are dead in sin, dead in Adam, totally depraved, young or old, from conception.

I'm asking you seriously. What does "turn and become as little children" mean to you as a Calvinist?

The "little Children: of Mt 18, are those who believe, not all...let's take a look at that text;
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
So it is describing the simplicity of saving faith, a trusting faith that is God given,

 

[Iconoclast]

So You are saying Adam had no choice but to sin?

I did not say Adam had no choice, because Adam pre=fall was created with original righteousness, he was untested and sinless up until the fall into sin and death. We are born dead in Adam now, FROM CONCEPTION.

Adam and Eve, had a choice to obey God or not.

They were commanded to obey God under penalty of spiritual and physical death. It was not an option.

They chose to not to obey God.

They chose sin and death.

Choice comes from the will in man.

All men have self will. The will is bound by sin. We make choices with a will that is bound by a sinful nature passed down from Adam.

Jesus had the same choice.

Jesus was not created, Jesus was not able to sin as His Holy nature cannot sin. He was tempted as we are, but yet without sin.

And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
Luke 22:41

He always did the Father's will

It all begins with the choice to believe.

No, it all begins with God's decree ,before the world was;9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hebrews 12.25-29 was written so the Hebrews should not be apostates

And the proof is the comparison he's making. Calvinisrs understand the comparison, right?

Where did Paul say that?

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. Rom.3:19 RSV
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offendin one point, he is guilty of all. Jas.2:10 KJV
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this lawt o do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. Deu.27:26, Gal.3:10 KJV

What about those who lived before Israel was a nation?

Our f first parents (Adam and Eve) taught their children goid and evil,

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Rom.2:26

The law defines all evil as 'sin against God." So the heightened awareness that "evil" is not only against other people but against our Creator,

for by the law isthe knowledge of sin.....the law entered, that the offence might abound. ....so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. Rom.3:20, Rom.5:20, 7:20 (all KJV)

The" righteousnes of the law is that it plays no favorites, but condemned all of us.

The word preached unto them condemned them even further.

That was one purpose of the law.

. Not all men have faith.

Not at all. They understand it.

All who go into second death will die under the law.

For not simply humbling themselves and asking him for forgiveness,

And when they hadnothing to pay, he frankly forgave them.....Lk:7:42

Who denied Jesus is God?

Nobody my friend. I was simply pointing out that putting an innocent man to death is contrary to Moses' law and and is a capital offense. But in the case of our Lord, they unknowingly tried to put God to death.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jn.3:19 KJV

All men are dead in sin, dead in Adam, totally depraved, young or old, from conception.

It's speaking in terms of the flesh. Adam did not live a drunken immoral depraved life. Adam and Eve left the garden with instructions on how they would have trouble laboring in the Lord. They are both with God now and I thank God for them.

The "little Children: of Mt 18, are those who believe, not all...let's take a look at that text;
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
So it is describing the simplicity of saving faith, a trusting faith that is God given,

I understand that.
I'm saying children who believe in God learned it from their parents.
I first heard about God from my parents and I simply accepted that he existed.

God didn't say, "Today I'm gonna pick iconoclast, journeyman and hmm......that's it....all the rest of you are damned."

You have to understand that God decided from the beginning to save people who put their faith in him. Adam and Eve did not leave that garden with no knowledge of God or what he wanted and expected... And that includes knowing that many people would not remain faithful to him.

A second chance. He gave me tons of second chances becauseHe ismerciful to all and he proved it when they nailed Him to a cross.

The only thing I have left to tell you in this conversation is that you better back up a little. Thank you for the talk and God bless you.

 

[Iconoclast]

And the proof is the comparison he's making. Calvinisrs understand the comparison, right?

I am not sure what you are asking. Could you clarify?

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. Rom.3:19 RSV
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offendin one point, he is guilty of all. Jas.2:10 KJV
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this lawt o do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. Deu.27:26, Gal.3:10 KJV

Our f first parents (Adam and Eve) taught their children goid and evil,

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Rom.2:26

The law defines all evil as 'sin against God." So the heightened awareness that "evil" is not only against other people but against our Creator,

for by the law isthe knowledge of sin.....the law entered, that the offence might abound. ....so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. Rom.3:20, Rom.5:20, 7:20 (all KJV)

The" righteousnes of the law is that it plays no favorites, but condemned all of us.

For not simply humbling themselves and asking him for forgiveness,

And when they hadnothing to pay, he frankly forgave them.....Lk:7:42

Nobody my friend. I was simply pointing out that putting an innocent man to death is contrary to Moses' law and and is a capital offense. But in the case of our Lord, they unknowingly tried to put God to death.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jn.3:19 KJV

It's speaking in terms of the flesh. Adam did not live a drunken immoral depraved life. Adam and Eve left the garden with instructions on how they would have trouble laboring in the Lord. They are both with God now and I thank God for them.

I understand that.
I'm saying children who believe in God learned it from their parents.
I first heard about God from my parents and I simply accepted that he existed.

God didn't say, "Today I'm gonna pick iconoclast, journeyman and hmm......that's it....all the rest of you are damned."

Any desire that you or I have to seek after God, would be a God give given desire. No one seeks God, no not one.
God knows everyone of the elect by name. He says so. Why does this bother you? Jer.1:5

You have to understand that God decided from the beginning to save people who put their faith in him.

The bible describes no such person. God is not a passive spectator, hoping someone might think well of Him.

Adam and Eve did not leave that garden with no knowledge of God or what he wanted and expected... And that includes knowing that many people would not remain faithful to him.

A second chance. He gave me tons of second chances becauseHe ismerciful to all and he proved it when they nailed Him to a cross.

The only thing I have left to tell you in this conversation is that you better back up a little. Thank you for the talk and God bless you.

Thank you for keeping it civil. We agree on some things, so that is a start. You have offered your ideas. We differ quite a bit, but in searching it out we and those who read can clarify what we understand.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I am not sure what you are asking. Could you clarify?

Do you remember the passage we were discussing with respect to my question?

Any desire that you or I have to seek after God, would be a God give given desire.

It is bro. Look at humans, animals all life for Gods' sake. For His sake. Not for our sake.

Kids today think they came from lifeless pond scum with a lightning bolt as a kick starter.

But guess what? All anyone on earth knows for sure is that we came from our parents as far as recorded time goes back.

which really means we can only prove that life must come from life... And mankind have always been mankind and so forth.

That's what we observe with our senses every day. Now here's the puzzle..... all living things die.

That makes life on earth unsustainable, meaning we shouldn't be here, but we are. David said,

Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!
Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it. Psa.129:14 NLT

AND

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? Psa.8:3-4 KJV

Btw, I want to know what version of the Bible you use. You quoted something from a tax giving what you said was a better rendering, but I couldn't find that version you were interpreting the text from.
It's not any Hebrew text I know of. It's not any version of the Septuagint I know of.
it's not any Latin or English version I know of. I couldn't even find it in the green monster.

What version of the Bible are you using?

No one seeks God, no not one.

The human race got to that point once, except for Noah and his family,

what do we really know about Noah?

We know he was charged by God with an immense task and he was faithful and completing it.

All these prophets were simply believers just like us being conformed to the image of Christ and they knew it. They were taught it.

Can you imagine yourself in that situation. your family are the only sane people on earth. That's scary.

How about Noah's ancestors?

Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Gen.5:22-24 KJV

you understand this godly mans' son lived more years on earth than anyone right?

That's a lot of Bible studies and Noah was taught about God by those guys. Noah's family preached the gospel that God forgives the repentant for free.

Free doesn'ti nclude I don't really mean I'm sorry.

And knowing you're truly repentant doesn't mean it's a work of the flesh.

Paul does not mean people have never sought after God. Of course they have the Bible says they have.

God knows everyone of the elect by name. He says so. Why does this bother you? Jer.1:5

Because you are neglecting to mention that he knew my name and your name and all the other names on earth when we were his enemies.

and here's the rage I have over it.

Jesus is God in human flesh. do you understand what I'm saying to you?

Got in human flesh put up with way more crud than I would have if I had his power.

have you ever seen people on TV ask where is God in the midst of all this suffering where in the heck is God?

people will learn the answer to that question when they realize mankind nailed him to a cross.

See, you and I can understand the rage we feel when we see a loved one being tortured beyond imagination.

But this loved one had the power to turn his enemies into smoke whenever he wanted to, but he didn't... because he gave his word to overcome death,

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things

Showing his desire not to kill his enemies. withholding his own anger from destroying these puny humans who are spitting on Him. What?

And you think God flipped a coin?

God needed to torture his son to forgive sin?

That's basically what you're saying because that's what Calvinism really teaches.

God for an unknown reason to all mankind saves whoever he wants. No apparent reason that your run-of-the-mill human could know, or no matter how lofty or humble the soul was, nobody could figure out.

But here's a purely insane answer for all mankind. God needed to torture his own son anyway.

The Bible never teaches this. Did Jesus needed to die in place of sinners.

He needed to conquer death so the gospel would be spread and it was. He said it would be. You're not only said it he guaranteed it. That's fulfilled prophecy in itself.

The bible describes no such person. God is not a passive spectator, hoping someone might think well of Him.

I never said he was, so please stop misquoting me by misunderstanding me. OK? Stop putting words in my mouth. OK?

I won't be going over the characters in the Old Testament again showing they were taught the gospel all the way back to our first parents.

You want to keep up the myth of our first parents being cursed by God or giving the world over to the devil it's all nonsense. The Bible says none of these things.

I'm not attacking you my friend. I was attacking Calvinism because it's senseless.

my parents taught me about God and I believed in him. I've told you this already.

I drifted pretty far from the Lord and when I returned to him he wasn't the same God I knew as a child as a loving father loves a child.

I accepted the new God who needed to see blood spill before he could forgive.

That was a cult I was drawn into by a real child of God, but when our Lord took me out of that situation, the Baptist were really no different.

I'm sorry it didn't occur to me earlier that the sacrifice for sin was meant to cause a heart of repentance in man.

Thank you for keeping it civil. We agree on some things, so that is a start. You have offered your ideas. We differ quite a bit, but in searching it out we and those who read can clarify what we understand.

A serious problem that needs addressing is what it is. I need to get away from this conversation conversation I think.

 

[brightfame52]

It's stunning. Jesus mercifully holding back his own anger against people who are abusing him, got turned into "TULIP"...."I can't repent because I don't know how. I have to wait for God to sprinkle magic fairy dust on my head so I can turn to him. And after I turn to him, I'm so depraved I'll continue living in sin and God is OK with that because he knows I'm just a mindless robot. What?

Tulip and Truths it represents are nothing short of the Gospel of Gods Grace, or sometimes called the Doctrines of Grace.

 

[eddif]

Hebrews 12:25 - 29was being discussed in post 162
25 KJV
25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29. For our God is a consuming fire.

The kingdom in us is purified by fire that consumes the dross,but not the bush.
Baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Will we move past Total Depravity? Which I still say existed right before the flood. Old Testament condition and not for new covenant times. LOL
eddif

 

[jasonc]

Will we move past Total Depravity? Which I still say existed right before the flood. Old Testament condition and not for new covenant times. LOL
eddif

Funny Jesus said as in the day of Noah .. so shall his return be .

 

[eddif]

Funny Jesus said as in the day of Noah .. so shall his return be .

Good point.
The other point being.
Before the great falling away, the long time between the end of the flood and the beginning of great falling away is not Total Depravity. Partial Depravity, but not Total Depravity. Total Depravity return is an End Time thing.

Matthew 24:22 kjv
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I will let you define the time frame at the end.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[jasonc]

Good point.
The other point being.
Before the great falling away, the long time between the end of the flood and the beginning of great falling away is not Total Depravity. Partial Depravity, but not Total Depravity. Total Depravity return is an End Time thing.

Matthew 24:22 kjv
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I will let you define the time frame at the end.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Paul thought it was the end time in his day .
See 2 peter 3 on seeing how we ought to live.peter didn't write that as some future event but that today is that day

Today is the day of salvation .

 

[eddif]

As an example of short term suffering:
Smyrna had a prophecy about a ten day suffering till death.
I really do not have a timeline at the end of time.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Tulip and Truths it represents are nothing short of the Gospel of Gods Grace, or sometimes called the Doctrines of Grace.

I understand that you think God pounding his Son without mercy appeased His anger. Torturing the innocent Man propitiated Gods' wrath against sinners.

The Truth, our Savior Jesus, God Himself on earth... could have killed his enemies. He said,

Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Mt.26:52 KJV

This matched this,

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isa.2:4 KJV

You think those are idle words? He meant what He said,

Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” Mt.26:53-54 NIV
What do you think our Lord meant by that brightflame?

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you remember the passage we were discussing with respect to my question?

Many times I do not remember on the next day. getting older each day I suppose. I just did not understand your post

It is bro. Look at humans, animals all life for Gods' sake. For His sake. Not for our sake.

Kids today think they came from lifeless pond scum with a lightning bolt as a kick starter.

But guess what? All anyone on earth knows for sure is that we came from our parents as far as recorded time goes back.

which really means we can only prove that life must come from life... And mankind have always been mankind and so forth.

Agreed. Sin has left them alienated from the life of God.

That's what we observe with our senses every day. Now here's the puzzle..... all living things die.

That makes life on earth unsustainable, meaning we shouldn't be here, but we are. David said,

Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!
Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it. Psa.129:14 NLT

AND

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? Psa.8:3-4 KJV

Yes, creation let's man know there is a God who we are responsible too, in some way. It does not let us know who He is, or what he requires...so we agree here also.

Btw, I want to know what version of the Bible you use. You quoted something from a tax giving what you said was a better rendering, but I couldn't find that version you were interpreting the text from.

I read primarily from a king James bible, but use many others. I often will look at young literal bible, or an interlinear. YLT....writes the verses in a more correct word order. You can find it free here on wwwbiblegateway.com.
It lists every kind of bible, so you switch versions and click enter, in the right upper corner clickon the upside down^ to see different versions.I will show Jn. 3 :15-16, first in KJV, then in YLT
kjv
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
click on the triangle thing, then scroll to what bible you want, ylt is the last one on the list, then click the search magniying glass.
ylt-
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

It puts the word order closer to the how the greek reads...it is kind of fun and instructional to read in it.
let me know if you got it to work! when you click the triangle a whole list of versions of the bible drop down. You scroll and pick the version you want, then click the search icon to lock it in. When finished repeat the steps and go back to the version you want.

It's not any Hebrew text I know of. It's not any version of the Septuagint I know of.
it's not any Latin or English version I know of. I couldn't even find it in the green monster.

What version of the Bible are you using?

• 
  Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
• 
  
• Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)
• King James Version (KJV) this one....then scroll to the bottom to YLT
• Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
• Legacy Standard Bible (LSB)
• Lexham English Bible (LEB)
• Living Bible (TLB)
• 
  
• Young's Literal Translation (YLT) This one

The human race got to that point once, except for Noah and his family,

what do we really know about Noah?

We know he was charged by God with an immense task and he was faithful and completing it.

Noah believed the special revelation he was given by God ...Heb.11:7

All these prophets were simply believers just like us being conformed to the image of Christ and they knew it. They were taught it.

Can you imagine yourself in that situation. your family are the only sane people on earth. That's scary.

That is why hebrews tells us Noah moved with fear;7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. A very strong verse.

How about Noah's ancestors?

Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Gen.5:22-24 KJV

you understand this godly mans' son lived more years on earth than anyone right?

Correct, His name Methusaleh means...when he dies, it comes.Meaning When He Is Dead It Shall Be Sent

That's a lot of Bible studies and Noah was taught about God by those guys. Noah's family preached the gospel that God forgives the repentant for free.

I am not aware of this teaching from Noah. Where do you see this?

Free doesn'ti nclude I don't really mean I'm sorry.

And knowing you're truly repentant doesn't mean it's a work of the flesh.

Paul does not mean people have never sought after God. Of course they have the Bible says they have.

Men seek a god, on their own terms, they are religious but cannot find the true God unless God allows them too.

Because you are neglecting to mention that he knew my name and your name and all the other names on earth when we were his enemies.

What I was saying was this verse;
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

In other words, obviously God being omniscient ' knows who everyone is, however when the bible speaks this way, it is that special knowledge of HIS, those the Father gave to Him...not all men...but All the Father has given to Him.
Do you see the distinction?

and here's the rage I have over it.

Jesus is God in human flesh. do you understand what I'm saying to you?

Not totally. I agree Jesus is God in flesh, but not exactly sure of your objection.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2

Got in human flesh put up with way more crud than I would have if I had his power.

have you ever seen people on TV ask where is God in the midst of all this suffering where in the heck is God?

Oh, okay...yes I know what you mean with that. people do not reverence the True God.

people will learn the answer to that question when they realize mankind nailed him to a cross.

See, you and I can understand the rage we feel when we see a loved one being tortured beyond imagination.

But this loved one had the power to turn his enemies into smoke whenever he wanted to, but he didn't... because he gave his word to overcome death,

Of course, In love the Father gave Him to redeem His Covenant people. It was not random, but planned and purposed/

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things

yes, lk 24!

Showing his desire not to kill his enemies. withholding his own anger from destroying these puny humans who are spitting on Him. What?

He came to accomplish redemption. he comes next time as JUDGE

And you think God flipped a coin?

God needed to torture his son to forgive sin?

That's basically what you're saying because that's what Calvinism really teaches.

Here is basically what Calvinism teaches, read through it, and start a thread on any portion you think you would like to correct. Give exact quotes, then offer your correction. Your comments here show you have not really heard what Calvinism is. https://www.chapellibrary.org/pdf/books/lbcw.pdf

God for an unknown reason to all mankind saves whoever he wants. No apparent reason that your run-of-the-mill human could know, or no matter how lofty or humble the soul was, nobody could figure out.

Do you think we can fully understand God, except what he reveals? rom11;
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

But here's a purely insane answer for all mankind. God needed to torture his own son anyway.

Torture His Son? or...pour out His Holy Wrath against sin? which does the bible say?

The Bible never teaches this. Did Jesus needed to die in place of sinners.

My friend... the whole bible teaches this. Sin causes death. Sin must be answered for, punished , cleansed,...to miss this is to miss the whole OT. sacrificial system...read Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10. This is a whole different thread.

He needed to conquer death so the gospel would be spread and it was. He said it would be. You're not only said it he guaranteed it. That's fulfilled prophecy in itself.

I never said he was, so please stop misquoting me by misunderstanding me. OK? Stop putting words in my mouth. OK?

I won't be going over the characters in the Old Testament again showing they were taught the gospel all the way back to our first parents.

You want to keep up the myth of our first parents being cursed by God or giving the world over to the devil it's all nonsense. The Bible says none of these things.

The bible teaches ALL of these very things. Which ones would you like to see? If I show you, will you admit the teaching is there?

I'm not attacking you my friend. I was attacking Calvinism because it's senseless.

We have major difference here. If you notice, I keep asking you to clarify so as to NOT put words in your mouth,
I am trying to help you. you get some things correct, but you miss other things by a mile. I am going to ask you to do the following.
1] read slowly the 1689 Confession of faith
2] respond to it, as time permits [copy and paste, then your response] You can do it in small sections.
3] explain what Hebrews 9 and 10 are describing for us.

my parents taught me about God and I believed in him. I've told you this already.

I am glad your parents began to teach you, but we learn all through life.

I drifted pretty far from the Lord and when I returned to him he wasn't the same God I knew as a child as a loving father loves a child.

I accepted the new God who needed to see blood spill before he could forgive.

That was a cult I was drawn into by a real child of God, but when our Lord took me out of that situation, the Baptist were really no different.

I'm sorry it didn't occur to me earlier that the sacrifice for sin was meant to cause a heart of repentance in man.

A serious problem that needs addressing is what it is. I need to get away from this conversation conversation I think.

Journeyman...slow down and take a small break if you need too. WE do not have to solve all mysteries in one hour.
It is hard to re=examine what we have been taught or come to believe, but we all need to do that. I still examine and improve what I believe every day. Do not think of this as someone wins and someone loses. We are here to edify each other as much as we can.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hebrews 12:25 - 29was being discussed in post 162

That's right.

25 KJV
25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

Exactly. if sinners were put to death under by the law for sinning against men on earth, how much more will sinners be executed for sin against God on earth?

that's logical. That makes sense.

29. For our God is a consuming fire.

Yes and Jesus is coming back here as an all consuming fire,

when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 2Tim.1:7-8 NLT

The kingdom in us is purified by fire that consumes the dross,but not the bush.
Baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

And not only in us dear friend, but all around us. What hasn't been made new before our Lord returns will perish at His presence.

 

[brightfame52]

I understand that you think God pounding his Son without mercy appeased His anger. Torturing the innocent Man propitiated Gods' wrath against sinners.

The Truth, our Savior Jesus, God Himself on earth... could have killed his enemies. He said,

Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Mt.26:52 KJV

This matched this,

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isa.2:4 KJV

You think those are idle words? He meant what He said,

Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” Mt.26:53-54 NIV
What do you think our Lord meant by that brightflame?

But you dont understand that Tulip is the Gospel

 

[eddif]

But you dont understand that Tulip is the Gospel

How is total depravity good news?

The Good news was that the ark saved 8 people at the flood. The bad news was that all but 8 people died because of only continual evil in their hearts.

We all have probably changed understanding over time.

Ask me questions, if you will. Try and convince me.

eddif

 

[jasonc]

How is total depravity good news?

The Good news was that the ark saved 8 people at the flood. The bad news was that all but 8 people died because of only continual evil in their hearts.

We all have probably changed understanding over time.

Ask me questions, if you will. Try and convince me.

eddif

The good news is despite our evil nature ,God made a way to save us .