Is Yahweh and Allah one?

[Seeker]

Nope. Why would you think that?

Well, wait... Do you mean Judaism of today in 2012 or Judaism back in the day? Because when you say that I think of Judaism of David, way back in the day. That was God, which I think I made clear since I did say "Abraham's, Noah's, Christ's God". It may not be politically correct to say among Christians (but when have I EVER liked being politically correct?) but Judaism died on the cross with Christ and modern Judaism isn't any different than any other pagan religion (ie anything that isn't Christianity). Modern Jews are gonna suffer the same fate as the Muslims and the Hindus and the Wiccans and all of them, unless they repent and come to the Lord Jesus Christ. And if you don't like that, too bad! Just look at modern Judaism! They don't even go to the Tanakh they go to a creation of man for their answers! Ptui!

I am intrigued by your discussion of Judaism today versus Judaism pre-Christ. Because the view of God in Judaism has not changed - the God of the Torah then is same in all attributes and nature as the God of the Torah now. (Because this discussion originated discussing Islam, I would interject here that this is the Lord we worship as well.)

So what HAS changed, if not the view of God in Judaism? Well, from a Christian point of view, what has changed post-Christ is that one must believe in the Trinitiarian God for salvation. From a Judaic perspective, they would assert that it is in fact you, therefore, who are worshipping a different God and that they are still worshipping the God of Abraham, David and Moses.

(Note that to believe in the Messiah - while a fundamental of Christian belief - does not affect the nature of God, but to believe the Messiah IS God certainly does, which is why it is not enough to say "they must believe in Jesus / believe he died on the cross" because that is not the objection in the context of this discussion.)

Well, Jesus died... Does that count? He's kind of God, right? But God the Father didn't die, if that's what you mean. And God the Son came right on back!

I must confess that I'm a little confused by the ease with which you refer to Jesus and God the Father as being different - one of them who died and one of them who did not die. (Don't worry I'm not being put off by the touch of sarcasm... We British understand sarcasm all the way lol.) Given this distinction you make, would you find it easy to accept that the Judaeo-Muslim description of God is that of "God the Father"?


(Sorry if any of my writing is not clear... It's almost 4am and my revision is making me slowly insane :eeeekkk!!)

 

[Pard]

I am intrigued by your discussion of Judaism today versus Judaism pre-Christ. Because the view of God in Judaism has not changed - the God of the Torah then is same in all attributes and nature as the God of the Torah now. (Because this discussion originated discussing Islam, I would interject here that this is the Lord we worship as well.)

So what HAS changed, if not the view of God in Judaism? Well, from a Christian point of view, what has changed post-Christ is that one must believe in the Trinitiarian God for salvation. From a Judaic perspective, they would assert that it is in fact you, therefore, who are worshipping a different God and that they are still worshipping the God of Abraham, David and Moses.

(Note that to believe in the Messiah - while a fundamental of Christian belief - does not affect the nature of God, but to believe the Messiah IS God certainly does, which is why it is not enough to say "they must believe in Jesus / believe he died on the cross" because that is not the objection in the context of this discussion.)

I'd argue, of course, that the Jews didn't get it right from the git-go (and really, let's be truthful, they got a LOT wrong). I can show you the trinity right in the first few verses of the Bible (that is Genesis 1).

I must confess that I'm a little confused by the ease with which you refer to Jesus and God the Father as being different - one of them who died and one of them who did not die. (Don't worry I'm not being put off by the touch of sarcasm... We British understand sarcasm all the way lol.) Given this distinction you make, would you find it easy to accept that the Judaeo-Muslim description of God is that of "God the Father"?

I am in turn confused by what it is that you mean. Jesus is Jesus, the Fath is the Father, and they are both God, with addition of the Spirit. If it sounded like I said otherwise, my fault!

And yeah, it's fair to say that the Jews, and by relation the Muslims, only see the Father.

 

[Free]

Didn't I answer this? Why did you go on such a round about way to get to the exact same thing that I said before?

It is not I that is going the round about way.

I am going to be talking about God, the one and only, the Christian God. He is the S-A-M-E God that is seen in Genesis 1:1 all the way through Malachi 4:3. He has gone by the name Elohim, Yahweh (or Jehovah depending on transliteration used), El Shaddai , and many other names, all of which are displayed in the Old Testament. He is the S-A-M-E God that is worshiped today by the Christians and He is the God who sent Christ into the world to save the world by His sacrifice on the cross at calvary.

He is NOT the same god that the muslims pray to. They pray to a golden cow. And he is not the same god that the modern Jews pray to, they also pray to a golden cow (coincidentally, they also invented said symbolic golden cow).

So then I must ask again, when did the God of the OT die? Or where did he go? If he is a different God from the one of the NT, as you have made abundantly clear, then we should throw out the OT as it speaks of a different God.

He is the God of the Christians and that's that.

Oh, and He is my God.

It doesn't seem like it. The God of the OT is the same God as the NT. If the Jews worship the God of the OT then they still worship the Christian God. If Muslims worship the same God as the Jews, then they worship the Christian God. There are some additional things to be said but they will remain unsaid until we can get past the first step.

I don't espouse a unitarian/univsalist world view, you know I don't, so why must we go around in a circle Free? Get to what you want to get at and stop raising my post count with silly things!

I've been very clear. Asking questions about someone's position rather than jumping to conclusions is preferable, yes?

 

[Pard]

So then I must ask again, when did the God of the OT die? Or where did he go? If he is a different God from the one of the NT, as you have made abundantly clear, then we should throw out the OT as it speaks of a different God.

He didn't I never said He did now did I? I said that he is the same as the God in Genesis through Malachi, not different. I thought that English was generally the same all over the world, but if that has a different meaning in Canadia please, let me know so I can rephrase it for you!

It doesn't seem like it. The God of the OT is the same God as the NT.

Look at that, we agree. How rare indeed!

If the Jews worship the God of the OT then they still worship the Christian God. If Muslims worship the same God as the Jews, then they worship the Christian God. There are some additional things to be said but they will remain unsaid until we can get past the first step.

Ah, now I see what you are getting at. Couldn't you have just said that before? Let's see. Maybe I've been saying it wrong? Dunno, could very well be. Let's see, let's see...

Judaism today is technically speaking Christianity, in that the religion of Judaism from the day of Jesus was fulfilled and the new covenant in Christ was created. Ideally the Jews would have been like "Sweet Savior!" and they'd be with Christ right now, but mostly that didn't work and so what we think of Judaism today is astray from God.

I guess I didn't phrase that right. My bad. The Jews are wrongly worshiping the correct god. Is that making more sense? Sounds good to me! Although if I really wanted to be argumentative I could assert that they created a new golden cow because God revealed Himself and they were like "nah!" So, I'll leave that to you:

If God reveals Himself in greater depth and allows us to understand Him more but people refuse to accept His Word and instead insist on worshiping Him as He was, are they worshiping the same god but in a bad and wrong way, or are they worshiping a new god they created by their refusal to worship the God in the way that He is?

Up to you.

Onto the muslims now. It's different because they came after. And as I said before it's a two sided coin. They sure think that they are worshiping the same god that is seen in the OT, but I don't believe they are. I believe they are worshiping a golden cow because they took the god as the Jews saw Him, after He had revealed His Son and His plan, and took the Jewish take, which was wrong, and then further changed and added to that god. I guess I'll just leave it to you again, this time a little different though... :

If I take Vishnu (that hindu one) and then decide he is actually a 23 headed penguin with purple butterfly wings and a giant mustache is that still Vishnu or is that some other god BASED on Vishnu?

 

[Seeker]

I'd argue, of course, that the Jews didn't get it right from the git-go (and really, let's be truthful, they got a LOT wrong). I can show you the trinity right in the first few verses of the Bible (that is Genesis 1).

If you ask any Christian, Jew or Muslim what the single most important aspect of their religion is, it is undoubtedly the belief in God, One God. And it is also the first commandment, which highlights the importance God Himself puts on this.

Therefore, I cannot accept morally or rationally or theologically that the MOST IMPORTANT message of the Torah was something the Jewish people just "didn't get right". God letting the Jews wander the desert for 40 years is a bit different to God leaving them in idol-worship for 3000+ years.

I believe that in every age and for every people there is a prophet that God sent to teach them about Him and to worship Him. Whenever the message was irrevocably lost, then God would send more. Noah, Moses, David, Saul, Jacob, Joseph, etc. What were all these noble men of God doing, if not teaching them the most important commandment?

Now I don't want to get into a discussion about Trinitarianism in the OT, but all I am arguing for is that the Judaism of the Jewish people at the time of the prophets was the correct and divine religion AT THAT TIME. I would agree with you, that when Jesus Christ was sent by God then it was incumbent upon them to believe in him (just as I believe that when the final prophet was sent by God it is incumbent upon all humanity to believe in him - the God never changed).


EDIT:

If I take Vishnu (that hindu one) and then decide he is actually a 23 headed penguin with purple butterfly wings and a giant mustache is that still Vishnu or is that some other god BASED on Vishnu?

Ummm... This analogy might backfire, given that - and it's hard for me to say this in a respectful manner given the metaphor you presented - it is the Jewish people who had the "original" and Trinitarian philosophy put the "purple butterfly wings". Gee, I wish you used a metaphor that made it easier to use kinder language

 

[Pard]

Ummm... This analogy might backfire, given that - and it's hard for me to say this in a respectful manner given the metaphor you presented - it is the Jewish people who had the "original" and Trinitarian philosophy put the "purple butterfly wings". Gee, I wish you used a metaphor that made it easier to use kinder language

Since Free is a Christian I kind of feel it won't backfire. And I also hope Free has enough humor to realize I'm poking fun! You know those Canadians, they didn't get any of that British humor, too cold I reckon.

 

[Free]

So then I must ask again, when did the God of the OT die? Or where did he go? If he is a different God from the one of the NT, as you have made abundantly clear, then we should throw out the OT as it speaks of a different God.

He didn't I never said He did now did I? I said that he is the same as the God in Genesis through Malachi, not different.

Let's put 2 and 2 together. Note the highlighted part.

It doesn't seem like it. The God of the OT is the same God as the NT.

Look at that, we agree. How rare indeed!

So, on the one hand you say that God is the same from Genesis through Malachi and agree that the God of the OT is the same God as the NT. This means God is the same God from Genesis to Revelation, not just Malachi. It follows then that the God of the Jews is the same God as the God of Christianity.

I guess I didn't phrase that right. My bad. The Jews are wrongly worshiping the correct god. Is that making more sense? Sounds good to me!

Now that is precisely what I have been driving at. That wasn't so hard, was it?:eeeekkk

If God reveals Himself in greater depth and allows us to understand Him more but people refuse to accept His Word and instead insist on worshiping Him as He was, are they worshiping the same god but in a bad and wrong way, or are they worshiping a new god they created by their refusal to worship the God in the way that He is?

And that is a good question. I have to think about that lest I get trapped by Oneness believers.

Onto the muslims now. It's different because they came after.

But Christianity came after Judaism...

And as I said before it's a two sided coin. They sure think that they are worshiping the same god that is seen in the OT, but I don't believe they are. I believe they are worshiping a golden cow because they took the god as the Jews saw Him, after He had revealed His Son and His plan, and took the Jewish take, which was wrong, and then further changed and added to that god. I guess I'll just leave it to you again, this time a little different though... :

I really don't see it as any different then the Jews "wrongly worshiping the correct god." In fact, I think that all of the attributes of Allah (in the Muslim sense) can be found in the Bible. This is significant. This is where we will get into some new points of divergence but it is significant that there are many points of convergence between the OT God of the Israelites, who is the same God as the Christian God, and the Allah of Islam. I don't believe that the further revelation to Christians that God is triune, that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah, necessarily means that the Jews or the Muslims are believing and worshiping a different God.

If I take Vishnu (that hindu one) and then decide he is actually a 23 headed penguin with purple butterfly wings and a giant mustache is that still Vishnu or is that some other god BASED on Vishnu?

I don't know, they might actually accept that he revealed himself to you in that way so it's okay for you to believe that. You would have to ask a Hindu.

 

[Pard]

Let's put 2 and 2 together. Note the highlighted part.


So, on the one hand you say that God is the same from Genesis through Malachi and agree that the God of the OT is the same God as the NT. This means God is the same God from Genesis to Revelation, not just Malachi. It follows then that the God of the Jews is the same God as the God of Christianity.

Just an error in translation I meant what I said. In that initial post I was referring to God from the the fact that He is the NT God and by adding the Genesis through Malachi bit I was saying He is also the God of the OT, not that they are different. Just a translation error between what I wrote and what you read. Darn English language!

And that is a good question. I have to think about that lest I get trapped by Oneness believers.

What's that?

I really don't see it as any different then the Jews "wrongly worshiping the correct god." In fact, I think that all of the attributes of Allah (in the Muslim sense) can be found in the Bible. This is significant. This is where we will get into some new points of divergence but it is significant that there are many points of convergence between the OT God of the Israelites, who is the same God as the Christian God, and the Allah of Islam. I don't believe that the further revelation to Christians that God is triune, that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah, necessarily means that the Jews or the Muslims are believing and worshiping a different God.

Well, I have other feelings that have lead me to this conclusion and I'd be willing to go on with that in private, but not here.

I don't know, they might actually accept that he revealed himself to you in that way so it's okay for you to believe that. You would have to ask a Hindu.

The the Hindus I know are now Christian though... :eeeekkk

 

[Vic C.]

I can't believe this thread went on as long as it did. It should have ended on page one. Jesus said our answers should be a simple yea or nay and in this case, a 'Nay" would have sufficed. :nod

 

[Free]

I can't believe this thread went on as long as it did. It should have ended on page one. Jesus said our answers should be a simple yea or nay and in this case, a 'Nay" would have sufficed. :nod

Except that it is more "Yea" then "Nay." :D

 

[Pard]

Except that it is more "Yea" then "Nay." :D

Well, if you area REAL Canadian then it's "Yea, eh!"

 

[jasoncran]

wait a minute its pc christianity these days. cant offend nor state logical truth..

allah adonai eckbar. there none gets offended.

 

[Free]

wait a minute its pc christianity these days. cant offend nor state logical truth..

allah adonai eckbar. there none gets offended.

I sure hope you're not suggesting that my position is based on being PC. As for "logical truth," that is what I am using.

 

[Sinthesis]

wait a minute its pc christianity these days. cant offend nor state logical truth..

allah adonai eckbar. there none gets offended.

There is a fine line between standing up to PC, and being haughty.

The object is to witness, not offend.

Although I must admit it is ridiculously easy to offend a Muslim.:christmas

 

[wayseer]

Although I must admit it is ridiculously easy to offend a Muslim.

Then offend them we must.

To bury our heads in the sand and pretend we are 'tolerant' is dishonest and achieves nothing.

Jesus cut across clan allegiance. See my post here on this matter.

 

[Seeker]

Then offend them we must.

To bury our heads in the sand and pretend we are 'tolerant' is dishonest and achieves nothing.

Jesus cut across clan allegiance. See my post here on this matter.

Well - not offend for the sake of offending of course. But if there's a valid point, made in a sincere way then... I don't see why anyone should be offended. Personally I don't take offence for very much, it's more just pity on someone lost in a circular lie or has a heart full of anger.

And to "tolerate" is quite an ugly thing when one has learned to respect. But I diverge, how is this relevant to the topic again lol...

 

[GojuBrian]

There was a simple question posed here with a simple answer. 14 pages later....the answer remains the same.

 

[Seeker]

There was a simple question posed here with a simple answer. 14 pages later....the answer remains the same.

What is the answer? Yes?

 

[Free]

Well - not offend for the sake of offending of course. But if there's a valid point, made in a sincere way then... I don't see why anyone should be offended.

Agreed.

 

[pHghost]

​

Since Free is a Christian I kind of feel it won't backfire. And I also hope Free has enough humor to realize I'm poking fun! You know those Canadians, they didn't get any of that British humor, too cold I reckon.

Well, frankly it isn't very clear that you are just poking fun, and it seems you use that as a way to distance yourself from a statement you made which was accepted rather lukewarmly.

And even if you were just poking fun, like you definitely are here:

Well, if you area REAL Canadian then it's "Yea, eh!"

-- I really wonder what the purpose is and how it adds to the discussion or pushes it forward.

The prayer of Saint Ephrem begins like this:

O Lord and Master of my life, give me not the spirit of sloth, despair, lust for power and idle talk.

I think idle talk isn't in there just as a mere coincidence.

Anyhow:

If I take Vishnu (that hindu one) and then decide he is actually a 23 headed penguin with purple butterfly wings and a giant mustache is that still Vishnu or is that some other god BASED on Vishnu?

If you become crazy somehow and decide that your mother is actually a leopard, is she still your mother?

Undoubtedly, she is. And she also is no leopard -- whatever you might think.

God is not defined by what we believe.

Judaism today is technically speaking Christianity, in that the religion of Judaism from the day of Jesus was fulfilled and the new covenant in Christ was created. Ideally the Jews would have been like "Sweet Savior!" and they'd be with Christ right now, but mostly that didn't work and so what we think of Judaism today is astray from God.

Judaism today is technically speaking not Christianity at all. They both have the same roots, but at a certain point they diverged and each went in its own direction.

I guess I didn't phrase that right. My bad. The Jews are wrongly worshiping the correct god. Is that making more sense? Sounds good to me! Although if I really wanted to be argumentative I could assert that they created a new golden cow because God revealed Himself and they were like "nah!"

But surprisingly enough, religion is not about worship per se -- more important is a living relationship with God. And only God himself sees into us and knows whether that is so or not. We might point at people and label them, but all that is for naught. Are Jews making themselves a new golden cow? Some might be, and so it is with some Christians as well.

Onto the muslims now. It's different because they came after. And as I said before it's a two sided coin. They sure think that they are worshiping the same god that is seen in the OT, but I don't believe they are. I believe they are worshiping a golden cow because they took the god as the Jews saw Him, after He had revealed His Son and His plan, and took the Jewish take, which was wrong, and then further changed and added to that god.

They didn't take the Jewish take. They took a lot from Judaism, true, but unlike the Jews, they accept Jesus as the Messiah, his virgin birth etc. As I stated before, for a long time Muslims were considered by the Christian world as only another Arian sect, not as a new religion.

I think that the original question, as it was posed, is slightly misleading. Especially the term Yahweh in this context could be better defined. It seems some people see Yahweh just as the God of the Bible, without distinguishing between the old and new testaments. That of course creates a problem, because it implies that the Muslim Allah is the same as the Christian triune God, which isn't a defendable position, whatever side you stand on.

But all three -- Christianity, Islam and modern Judaism proceed from the same old testament God -- Yahweh.

wait a minute its pc christianity these days. cant offend nor state logical truth..

PC is nonsense of course, but so is mindless offending. How does that help anyone or bring them closer to the truth. Mostly it does the exact opposite -- creates a rift between you and those you offend.

Jesus said it quite clearly:
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. [Matt. 5:5]
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. [Matt. 5:9]

The goal is not to prove who is right, but to try bring others closer to the truth, the best way is by example. There is a wise saying: Preach the truth of God all the time, but only when necessary use words.

Words cannot encompass God, they cannot explain him. Like love, God cannot be arrived at or understood through pragmatical or purely logical means -- you have to feel Him and experience Him, or not understand him at all.

When you see His work around you, only then you might want to know more about Him and start on your own path of getting to know Him better.