Isaiah 9 revisited

[einstein]

I had previously posted a response to "follower of Christ" in the "Trinity" thread which the moderator has locked. It is not my intention to restart a discussion regarding the trinity but simply to finish the discussion to demonstrate that there is another perspective to Isaiah 9 which would indicate that the son being referred to by the prophet is Hezekiah rather than Jesus of Nazareth.

I have already provided two grammatically correct translations of the passage. Follower of Christ asked if I had a degree in biblical Hebrew. As a matter of fact, I do. However I also frequently communicate with friends and colleagues at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem for confirmation.

Christianity which claims this verse is a prophecy of Jesus is ignoring the following:

1) The Hebrew tenses are PAST tense, not future.

2) The context of the 9th and 10th chapters refer to the Sennacharib event and allude to it with metaphors used to describe the Assyrian attack on Israel comparing the warfare with Gideon's victory at Midian.

3) The term referring to the "eternity" of Hezekiah refers to his lifespan, namely all the days of his life in the same way that Samuel is referred to in 1 Sam:22. and the term "ayn kaytz" can be translated as "without end" or "without limits/boundaries" ie Hezekiah's reign was one of peace in his time.

4) The Hebrew word "meata" ie "henceforth/from now" clearly indicates a reference to the time of Isaiah and Hezekiah, not some event to transpire 700 years into the future.

BTW one should ask the following questions. In the time described in the Greek scriptures, did Jesus rule? Was Jesus ever properly anointed a King in Judah as per the regulations in the Mosaic Law? Did Jesus ever lead a government "misrah" on his shoulder? Did Jesus bring everlasting peace? As I recall after his death hundreds of thousands of Jews were slaughtered and crucified by the Romans, the Temple was destroyed and the great diaspora began.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Get a life.

 

[einstein]

Wow-quite an intelligent reply!

 

[Sinthesis]

3) The term referring to the "eternity" of Hezekiah refers to his lifespan, namely all the days of his life in the same way that Samuel is referred to in 1 Sam:22. and the term "ayn kaytz" can be translated as "without end" or "without limits/boundaries" ie Hezekiah's reign was one of peace in his time.

This interpretation is biblically and historically, as well as literally and figuratively inaccurate if it is about Hezekiah's reign.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Wow-quite an intelligent reply!

However I also frequently communicate with friends and colleagues at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem for confirmation.

Blind leaders of the blind.

 

[einstein]

It would be greatly appreciated if you would stop with your condescending attitudes and insults, if you have nothing constructive to say in response to my leading statement. Shiloh's foal--more like a horse's ass

 

[einstein]

This interpretation is biblically and historically, as well as literally and figuratively inaccurate if it is about Hezekiah's reign.

Well, please demonstrate then, how it applies to the life and time of Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[whirlwind]

This interpretation is biblically and historically, as well as literally and figuratively inaccurate if it is about Hezekiah's reign.

Well, please demonstrate then, how it applies to the life and time of Jesus of Nazareth.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty GOD, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

You believe that is Hezekiah?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

It would be greatly appreciated if you would stop with your condescending attitudes and insults, if you have nothing constructive to say in response to my leading statement. Shiloh's foal--more like a horse's ass

This ass is speaking to you .

 

[einstein]

This interpretation is biblically and historically, as well as literally and figuratively inaccurate if it is about Hezekiah's reign.

Well, please demonstrate then, how it applies to the life and time of Jesus of Nazareth.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty GOD, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

You believe that is Hezekiah?

That's not what the Hebrew Bible is saying- that's the KJB's faulty translation of the Hebrew Bible. If you have an open mind see my post in the "Trinity" thread. If you do not believe me you have 2 other options: 1) Go and learn the Hebrew language OR 2) Go and ask someone who is truly knowledgeable in the language to translate the verbs in the verse.

 

[westtexas]

This interpretation is biblically and historically, as well as literally and figuratively inaccurate if it is about Hezekiah's reign.

Well, please demonstrate then, how it applies to the life and time of Jesus of Nazareth.

Einstein, compare Isaiah 9 with Matthew 4:12-17


"to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah"-- the gospel here is speaking of Jesus -NOT Hezekiah

 

[einstein]

This interpretation is biblically and historically, as well as literally and figuratively inaccurate if it is about Hezekiah's reign.

Well, please demonstrate then, how it applies to the life and time of Jesus of Nazareth.

Einstein, compare Isaiah 9 with Matthew 4:12-17


"to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah"-- the gospel here is speaking of Jesus -NOT Hezekiah

Just because Matthew says such and such transpired to fulfill what such and such prophet said does not constitute fulfillment of prophecy. The author of Matthew is notorious for playing fast and loose with verses in the Hebrew Bible quoting out of context, using mistranslations and so on to retrofit Jesus into the Tanakh.

When I read the verses in Isaiah I see a recounting of an historical event which fits into the overall theme of chapters 7-10. I do no see Isaiah making any prophecy here at all. Certainly the verse is not a clear unequivocal statement such as Jeremiah 29:10 to give just one example-" For so said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel- For the completion of seventy years of Babylon I will remember you, and I will fulfill My good word toward you, to restore you to this place." Clear, concise and verifiable.

Now read Is 9:1-2. I will even use the KJB rather than a Jewish translation-"Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward more grievously did afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined." The verses are past tense ie they recount an historical event, in this case the prophet is referring to the Assyrian assault on Israel and its composite tribes and the subsequent deliverance of Judah out of the hand of Sennacarib under Hezekiah.

The Christian scholars who translated the NASB saw the problem and attempted to solve it by manipulating the verbs as follows:But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on he shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who walk in darkness will see a great light; those who live in a dark land, the light will shine on them." This is clear tampering with the Hebrew bible changing past tense verbs into future tense with Christological intent.

The funny thing is that these translators failed to make similar changes in the NASB version of Matthew 4 which reads-"and leaving Nazareth, He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali. This was spoken to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying, `The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles - the people who were sitting in darkness saw a great light, and to those who were sitting in the land and shadow of death, upon them a light dawned'". Matthew is quoting a verse of history as recounted by Isaiah and trying to manipulate it to apply to Jesus. It doesnt hold water.

 

[westtexas]

Matthew is quoting a verse of history as recounted by Isaiah and trying to manipulate it to apply to Jesus. It doesnt hold water.[/quote]



The Gospel of Matthew is manipulated? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I'm not even going to give that one the dignity of a response.

 

[einstein]

Matthew is quoting a verse of history as recounted by Isaiah and trying to manipulate it to apply to Jesus. It doesnt hold water.

The Gospel of Matthew is manipulated? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I'm not even going to give that one the dignity of a response.[/quote]

With all due respect, you won't give a response because you can't. Matthew repeatedly takes verses out of context, mistranslates from the original Hebrew and and on one occasion actually makes up a prophecy that doesn't even exist in the Hebrew Bible. In that regard please demonstrate where in the Hebrew Bible is the statement alluded to in Matt 2:23?

Finally, getting back to the topic at hand, it is evident from a correct translation of the Hebrew, in Isaiah 9;6-7 the prophet used past tense verbs- he is referring to someone already born- "the government" is already on his shoulder- ie the crown prince, and he is trying to assure his people of the uplifting and consolidation of the Davidic dynasty from "NOW" (not in another 700 years or so) and forever which is part of the Davidic covenant. Jesus never ruled. Jesus was never anointed a King of Israel as per the Law of Moses. Jesus' genealogy (as per Matthew and Luke) rules him out as the Mashiach of Israel.

 

[westtexas]

Einstein, surely you don't honestly believe that the Gospel of Matthew is manipulated. If you truly believe that how do you know what scripture to believe? 2 Tim. 3:16 states "ALL scripture is God-breathed" . I guess that one is manipulated also and it really should read "All scripture is God-breathed except the Gospel of Matthew because Einstein says it is manipulated.

 

[westtexas]

This interpretation is biblically and historically, as well as literally and figuratively inaccurate if it is about Hezekiah's reign.

Well, please demonstrate then, how it applies to the life and time of Jesus of Nazareth.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty GOD, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

You believe that is Hezekiah?

Einstein, you never answered Whirlwind's question. You believe Hezekiah is THE MIGHTY GOD and THE EVERLASTING FATHER??? Blasphemy is the only word that comes to mind right now!!!!!

 

[jasoncran]

i'll praying for you einstein as a fellow hebrew and now fulfilled in christ.

jason

 

[Shilohsfoal]

einstein seems to be the kind of person who has a common understanding of scripture.
What he finds logical is what he believes.For instance,he would believe Solomon is the seed of David who would build the temple of God.

 

[einstein]

The manipulation consists of taking verses from the Hebrew Bible out of context, mistranslating verses and fabricating verses which do not exist in the Hebrew Bible:

Matthew 2:23

And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene." Please show me where it says in the Hebrew Bible that the Messiah would hail from/reside in Nazareth.

 

[einstein]

Einstein, you never answered Whirlwind's question. You believe Hezekiah is THE MIGHTY GOD and THE EVERLASTING FATHER??? Blasphemy is the only word that comes to mind right now!!!!![/quote][/quote][/quote]

I don't believe that at all. I provided 2 grammatically correct translations in another post. In the first, all the name titles are applied to the crown prince. The term "el gibbor" may also be translated to "mighty hero" and refers to someone "godlike in power" an exaggerated term of praise routinely used in the ancient orient. The word "el" is frequently used in the Hebrew Bible to describe powerful people and is not only used to refer to God or gods. Furthermore these symbolic names as used in the Tanakh make a statement about God rather than describing the person or object that is named. Moshe built an alter and called it the Lord is my banner. Are we supposed to worship the alter as God?

I prefer the second translation since it is clearer and states that the Eternal (who is the Wondrous Advisor, etc.) called crown prince "prince of peace" or "ruler of peace".

As an aside Hezekiah"s name in Hebrew is Chizkiyahu- the roots coming from K-Z-K "strong or strengh" and YAH meaning "God". Sound familiar?

Finally,it is interesting to note that the statement, "The zeal of the L-rd of hosts shall do this", found at the end of Isaiah 9:7, is found in only two other places in the Bible: Isaiah 37:32 and 2 Kings 19:31. Both of these passages discuss the miraculous deliverance wrought by G-d on Hezekiah's behalf. The most logical interpretation of Isaiah 9:6-7 is, in light of all the above, not that the Messiah must be G-d, but that Isaiah is recounting G-d's defense of Jerusalem during the Assyrian siege.