Seeing how you believe in salvation "regardless of" (without!) Jesus, why don't you put down what you think is harlot's lipstick and pick up the Talmud and become a "jew"?
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isreal and the trib and millenium
- Thread starter jasoncran
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Seeing how you believe in salvation "regardless of" (without!) Jesus, why don't you put down what you think is harlot's lipstick and pick up the Talmud and become a "jew"?
smaller
Member
You wouldn't be the first guy who thinks there is a difference between God of the Old Testament and the New Testament.
smaller
Member
I'm not particularly fond of the anti-semite agenda parading as christianity.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
I see zero exclusions
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
I see zero exclusions
smaller
Member
Paul was clear that we are to reach to Jews in DIVINE MERCY as we have so received.
Romans 11:
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
n2thelight
Member
In the last three chapters and including this chapter we see part of the plan of God that reaches out to all of God's children, Israel and Gentile alike. All races are God's children, and in Christ there is salvation to all that will believe on Jesus Christ and repent of their sins in Jesus' name. We can see the love of God, and His plan to place Himself back into the hearts of His children.
The issue that is in the background of all of the chapters of Romans is, "Is God unfair?" God is working here through Paul's writing to let you and I know that He is totally fair in all His judgments. You may not understand God's reasoning, but in His plan we can see He is always just.
Israel was the chosen, because these people are the chosen through which the Seed Jesus Christ would come. That Seed Jesus Christ is the Savior of all people. Paul discussed in the last chapter that because of that promised Seed, or Christ, now all could be saved. But to Israel, the Father said, "all day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." Romans 10:21
So now we have the response to the prior three chapters.
Romans 11:1 "I say then, hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."
Here we have Paul's true genealogy. He was of the seed of Abraham, an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin. Many have taught that Paul was a Roman, and a Jew, For His father was in Rome, as a free born Roman citizen, and Paul was educated there in Rome. He was a Jew, because he lived and continued his education in the land of Judaea, and all people living in the land of Judaea were considered Jews. However, through birth and genealogy, Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin.
The House of Judah [Jews] was made up of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and a small part of the Levite tribe. In time the Nethenimins [the Kenites given in service] and their families mixed in and completely took over the duties of the scribes and priests, as recorded in Ezra 8:15. The territory given by Joshua to Benjamin when the Children of Israel came out of the wanderings in the wilderness included Jerusalem. Jerusalem was the capital city of the nation of the House of Judah, and thus Paul would be a Jew by means of location also.
Romans 11:5 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
The remnant was the remnant that God chose, such as Paul and the disciples and others, from generation to generation, to bring the message and truth of the Gospel of Christ. Elijah himself and John the Baptist in the spirit of Elijah were part of that remnant as they were teaching God's Word. They were passing God's Word down through the generations of years to deliver it in the final generation, to the election of God.
Anyone that sees the truth of God's overall plan and picture are part of the remnant, and this doesn't refer to salvation, because there will be millions that have the salvation that God offers to all through repentance and believing in His Son. But we are talking here about the remnant here that delivers God's Word. These people have eyes to see and ears to hear and know the truth of God's plan.
The remnant is the person that will carry the truth, and perhaps even die and return to the Father before the end generation has been completed at the seventh trumpet. But we have come to that end generation now whereby many people are hearing the Word and do know and believe that God's Word is true. They have faith enough to make God's Word part of their lives. Christianity to them is a reality, and not just a religion.
Romans 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."
God is not giving up on anyone and he doesn't count anyone out. When you have drifted out of God's grace and later repent of your sin, the freedom that we have in Christ removes all of those sins from the judgment of God. We become grafted into the "tree of Life" again, which is Christ. Your stand before the Lord is up to you, for when you have repented in Jesus name, and believe on Him, your standing before the Father is based on the righteousness of Christ, who's blood paid the price for those sins.
Romans 11:24 "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"
Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."
The blindness is the stupor that God sent upon those that cannot understand the plan of God, and see the prophetic signs around them. Remember Luke 21:24; "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Christ is going to return to earth at the fullness of the Gentiles.
What happens then?
Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27"For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
This happens at the end of the Millennium age, not now, nor in the flesh. Why will this be? Because in the Millennium age all souls will be in their incorruptible bodies, and they will know Satan for what he is, as liar and deceiver, and they will have known Jesus Christ personally for that thousand year period.
Romans 11:28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
Concerning the gospel from the standpoint of Israel's enemies, they are in a blind stupor. As for the election, God protects them because the elect are the ones that bring forth the truth.
So why does God bring this blindness and stupor on many people? Any sin committed in ignorance, or blindness is not a sin before the Father. That is why we shall have the Millennium, and we will have the thousand years of teaching and discipline. It is written in Revelation 20:5; "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
Dead here takes on a different name, it means they are spiritually dead, and their souls are still mortal [or liable to die] even though their body is incorruptible and will not age.
According to this all Israel will still see and recognize Christ at the end of the Millennium. However, there will be some other people that will not, and they will fall for Satan's deceptions when Satan is released for a season at the end of the Millennium age. In other words, Because of God's love for some people, He will blind them and put them into a stupor in this earth flesh age, to protect them from committing a sin that is unforgivable, during the time of the Antichrist. This is why you will never get them to see the truth no matter how hard you try, for it for their protection that this stupor comes.
This is also why we should be very patient while we are planting the seeds of the gospel. Some people are blind to the simplicity that Christ taught, as to the order of events, and the many other prophecies that are even now taking place daily before our eyes. It is not for us to judge these souls that God has placed in this stupor, for only God will do the judging, and that time of judgment comes only after the Millennium age.
Romans 11:30 "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy they also may obtain mercy."
Paul is going back to the times that the twelve tribes fell into idolatry, and did not believe God. It was through their unbelief that God made His plan of salvation to the Gentiles, through Jesus Christ death and shed blood on the cross.
Romans 11:31 "Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."
In other words it is all part of God's overall plan. Remember how Paul used the likeness of an good olive tree, and when the natural branches were pruned away, the wild olive branches were graffed in, which were the Gentiles. It was because to Israel's fall that the Gentiles obtained salvation, and yet in due time, even in the Millennium, the natural branches will be grafted back on the tree.
This is to show that God loves all of His children, and that each one that calls themselves of God, should treat all of the others of that tree [Christ] with respect and dignity.
Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all."
God's plan is so design that He may have mercy on all men. Though all men were born into this flesh age in disbelief, God's plan is perfect even though most men and women just can't see that plan. God's plan has come to pass exactly as it was written, and it will come to a completion right on schedule as prophesied. God has shown us in these last four chapters that He will used His called and election for His purpose and to complete His will.
O
Osgiliath
Guest
Thank you reba. And AMEN! :amen
I cannot understand why people still struggle with Paul's assertion:
2 Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
In verse 18 above, Paul is quoting Leviticus 26:12 as if it is a promise to converted Gentile Corinthians:
Leviticus 26:12 "And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people."
God has but one Israel, one Jacob, one Judah and one Jerusalem. He does not have a physical and a spiritual Jew or Israelite. He has but one seed. The promises above are only for those in Christ. ALL (of ANY ethnicity) who are not in Christ are the son of the bondwoman and will not be made heir with the son of the freewoman - contrary to what those who still "think in the flesh," believe:
Galatians 4:28 "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman [Hagar] and her son [Ishmael]: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
Many are caught off guard by this because their mind immediately thinks "Physical Israel" when they see "Isaac" - because "biologically speaking" physical Israel is through Isaac. However, Isaac in the New Covenant represents THOSE IN CHRIST. Isaac represents those who are "born of the Spirit" - whereas the son [Ishmael] of the bondwoman [Hagar] represents those "of the flesh" who are NOT IN CHRIST.
Physical lineage means NOTHING here. There are only TWO options: those who are IN CHRIST (of the Spirit = Isaac), and those who are NOT IN CHRIST (of the flesh = Ishmael, son of the bondwoman). Physical pedigree means nothing. ZERO.
The whole point of this 4th chapter of Galatians, the whole point of Romans 9, is that the bondwoman and her son are "cast out" and will "not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
Yet many still insist:
- "I see the Deliverer being the body of Christ with the rod of iron manifesting and setting up the Kingdom of God on earth. At that point the body of Christ will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; Jacob being the reunited 12 tribes (Judah + Israel). At that point the body of Christ will turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
No, 'at that point' the son of the bondwoman will not be made heir with God's elect (firstfruits) who are 'at that point' "the commonwealth of Israel," as stated in Ephesians 2:
Ephesians 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."
Paul said:
Galatians 4:30 "The son of the bondwoman shall NOT be made heir with the son of the free woman.
Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Jerusalem that now is (physical Jerusalem - as well as ALL who are not IN CHRIST), IS the son of the bondwoman:
Galatians 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem WHICH IS ABOVE is free, which is the mother of us all."
So "Jerusalem which now is" is no more Jerusalem than the children of the flesh are of Abraham........ or a Jew which is one outwardly is a Jew.
Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Again, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with a physical pedigree (see above); it is only given to the "overcomers" in Christ.
Galatians 3 makes it abundantly clear that Abraham is not the true "father of the faithful" at all, but Christ is the true 'Abraham' and the true "father of the faithful."
Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Revelation 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations."
Power over the nations is not for people with a certain physical pedigree; it is only given to the "overcomers" in Christ.
Christ said:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing."
Physical pedigree, race, ethnicity, etc. means NOTHING. The flesh, biological nature is irrelevant! To God, flesh, biology, race, is INVISIBLE! He sees right through it as if it weren't there.
Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."
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I am not disagreeing with what you wrote however it fails to incorporate the fact that -
Physical Isaac was as much in Christ as Abraham was.
2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: "Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Physical land was promised to physical people, who were/are covenant people.
The Lord didn't make a brand new covenant, he ratified what He entered into with Abraham and included gentiles!
JLB
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
The Lord didn't make a brand new covenant, he ratified what He entered into with Abraham and included gentiles!
JLB
Paul seemed to think it did -
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. Galatians 3:13-17
JLB
smaller
Member
I've given JLB a fair amount of 'legitimate critique' but he's right on the COVENANT being the same as delivered to Abraham:
Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
The "New Covenant" is the same as the Old One.
Ultimately though, to move us all onto the same page, this NEW COVENANT will be inscribed upon our hearts, and not in 'letter' on papyrus.
That's partly why it's NEW.
Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
That would be 'Christ' in us where we all 'know Him' therein beyond any doubt.
Til that transpires we are 'all' given over to very certain forms of inhibitors that keep us 'all' from realizing it right here and now. But the Glory, His Glory, WILL be shown to be 'in us.'
s
Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
The "New Covenant" is the same as the Old One.
Ultimately though, to move us all onto the same page, this NEW COVENANT will be inscribed upon our hearts, and not in 'letter' on papyrus.
That's partly why it's NEW.
Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
That would be 'Christ' in us where we all 'know Him' therein beyond any doubt.
Til that transpires we are 'all' given over to very certain forms of inhibitors that keep us 'all' from realizing it right here and now. But the Glory, His Glory, WILL be shown to be 'in us.'
s
O
Osgiliath
Guest
Yes smalls, but Galatians 3 makes it abundantly clear that Abraham is not the true "father of the faithful" at all, but Christ is the true 'Abraham' and the true "father of the faithful."
Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and HEIRS according to the promise."
The son of the bondwoman shall NOT be made heir with the son of the free woman.
Galatians 4:31 "So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
Jerusalem that now is, (physical Israel) IS the son of the bondwoman:
Galatians 4:25 "For this Agar [Hagar] is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
So "Jerusalem which now is" is no more Jerusalem, than the children of the flesh are of Abraham or a Jew, which is one outwardly, is a Jew.
Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac [the Spirit - in Christ] shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of THE FLESH [Ishmael], these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Many are confused because they see the name Isaac mentioned, and their mind immediately conjures up: "physical Israel" because physical Israel are "biologically descended" from Isaac. But Paul is not comparing physical pedigree here, he is comparing "the flesh" [Ishmael] with "the Spirit" [Isaac]
The truth is that "the son of the bondwoman will not be made heir with the son of the freewoman."
Rulership over the nations is not for people with a physical pedigree; it is only given to the "overcomers" in Christ.
Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God."
Galatians 4:30 "Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son [Ishmael] of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son [Isaac] of the freewoman.
Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
smaller
Member
There is no need to diminish Abraham or the path he walked. Anyone called into faith is well advised to retrace his footsteps many times and his actions should be paid attention to personally, to find understandings and Gods dealings with him, which are many and multifold.
I mentioned it in this thread because of the TWO COVENANTS that are shown to Abraham, which btw are still both in effect. I know we may differ on that sight a bit. But I also know you have excellent depth of understandings so I always appreciate visiting with you on any of these matters.
As to Christ replacing Abraham? I might consider Abraham more in line with a believer rather than God Himself in flesh.
Luke 20:37
Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Not wanting to overplay that last statement as Paul also makes a similar claim unto himself.
I mentioned it in this thread because of the TWO COVENANTS that are shown to Abraham, which btw are still both in effect. I know we may differ on that sight a bit. But I also know you have excellent depth of understandings so I always appreciate visiting with you on any of these matters.
As to Christ replacing Abraham? I might consider Abraham more in line with a believer rather than God Himself in flesh.
Luke 20:37
Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Not wanting to overplay that last statement as Paul also makes a similar claim unto himself.