isreal and the trib and millenium

[smaller]

robert, im of isreal. cranman is an ashakanazi jewish name. so i wont be in the church? sheesh. this jew worship by some here is amazing. the bible doesnt support the idea of a seperation of a jew in the things to come. a jew represents something to god in the past spiritually and now the church has taken that role. it was always meant to be a gentile-hebrew peoples coming to god. under the torah it was as isreal, now its all as in christ. hmm nah that is too much.

It is not 'Jew worship' to see God in Christ as the Savior of Jews jason. They were in fact, all of them, blinded by God in Christ for the benefit of Gentiles.

They will assuredly be brought to LIGHT by His Mercy which God in Christ intended for YOU to carry to them.

Romans 11:
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


Think about that in your engagements and what you received and BEAR in your own heart from God in Christ. It is not to damn them, but to distribute HIS MERCY that you were given because of their blinding.


Jew worship? Uh, no. Not a chance.



s

 

[Hammer]

It is not 'Jew worship' to see God in Christ as the Savior of Jews jason. They were in fact, all of them, blinded by God in Christ for the benefit of Gentiles.

For our readers, be reminded that Smaller believes that all Jews are Saved without faith or repentance in Jesus.

As for fact, the blinding of the Jews ended by 70AD.

Romans 11:
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

That mission was accomplished in the first century.

Jew worship?

Worship of pseudo-Jews is the the cancer in the church today.

 

[smaller]

For our readers, be reminded that Smaller believes that all Jews are Saved without faith or repentance in Jesus.

I accept what Paul writes of them in Romans 11. Has nothing to do with what "I" think, other than the ability to read.

As for fact, the blinding of the Jews ended by 70AD.

Says you. Paul told us exactly how 'all' unbelievers are blinded, which same continues to this day:

2 Cor. 4:4.

Ended in 70ad? Funny.

That mission was accomplished in the first century.

The Gospel continues to go forth. Stopped in 70ad? Again, pretty funny.

Worship of pseudo-Jews is the the cancer in the church today.

Titus 3:2
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

s

 

[jasoncran]

smaller, when are of isreal and have delved into judaism like some of us and or one gentile here that i talk to alot that KNOWS more and got me into the sages, then talk. even to that gentile he felt the desire to become a torah following jew. it has depth beyond what you can imagine.

i know of christians who wished they were jews. really? you have all that i have at the cross. theres no jew is better in christ. saving them or loving isreal is one thing but another to want to be of isreal.

 

[smaller]

smaller, when are of isreal and have delved into judaism like some of us and or one gentile here that i talk to alot that KNOWS more and got me into the sages, then talk. even to that gentile he felt the desire to become a torah following jew. it has depth beyond what you can imagine.

i know of christians who wished they were jews. really? you have all that i have at the cross. theres no jew is better in christ. saving them or loving isreal is one thing but another to want to be of isreal.

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

 

[jasoncran]

that has nothing to do with what i said. i have talked to a messianic jew that is a gentile and tell she they wished she was of the seed of abraham.

the allure of the torah and its depths are strong. i can understand why some do embrace it but I wont allow ZIONISM to guide what the bible says. the sages. yah know those Jewish teachers ie moses, david and the prophets and others. didnt see things the way the modern christian zionist does.funny they believed that when the messiah would come and restore worship it would be a fleshly temple.

 

[smaller]

that has nothing to do with what i said. i have talked to a messianic jew that is a gentile and tell she they wished she was of the seed of abraham.

the allure of the torah and its depths are strong. i can understand why some do embrace it but I wont allow ZIONISM to guide what the bible says. the sages. yah know those Jewish teachers ie moses, david and the prophets and others. didnt see things the way the modern christian zionist does.funny they believed that when the messiah would come and restore worship it would be a fleshly temple.

If your claim is that exactly none of them received anything from Gods Words of the Old Testament, I'd have to say your probably not accurate.

The Gospel is in the Old Testament. If I were Jewish I'd take a long hard look at Christianity before I jumped ship to any particular 'sect' for which there are MANY, especially if it comes at the cost of tossing ones family under the bus.

s

 

[jasoncran]

If your claim is that exactly none of them received anything from Gods Words of the Old Testament, I'd have to say your probably not accurate.

The Gospel is in the Old Testament. If I were Jewish I'd take a long hard look at Christianity before I jumped ship to any particular 'sect' for which there are MANY, especially if it comes at the cost of tossing ones family under the bus.

s

the jews dont even agree. why they have several different types of judaism. its called reformed(torah isnt followed), consertive, torah is adaptable, and orthodox,torah doesnt change but some minor things are allowed, and ultra orthodox, strict following of the torah and these are the one that dont think any jew should speak hebrew in public or live in isreal until the messiah comes. and finally constructionist which is making up whatever one wants.

so you were saying. the orthodox is where i get my info from and their sages dont agree too.

 

[jasoncran]

smaller only one family of isreal knows their names and tribe. these are of the kohathites and thus levites. so where and what does a levite do in christ? does he offer lambs up for sin?

 

[Sinthesis]

smaller only one family of isreal knows their names and tribe. these are of the kohathites and thus levites. so where and what does a levite do in christ? does he offer lambs up for sin?

Ezra/Nehemiah shows us that without hereditary documentation going back to the actual temple era, no matter who you say your family is, you are not to be allowed to be a temple priest. So not only is there no temple, but there is nobody who can legitimately serve as priest, unless we are talking about the order of Melchisedec.

 

[Hammer]

Smaller, since you believe Jews are saved without Jesus and you don't like the idea of Jews becoming Christian, why don't you buy yourself a copy of the Talmud and become a Jew? Given your statements, you seem to believe Judaism is superior to Christianity.

 

[smaller]

smaller only one family of isreal knows their names and tribe. these are of the kohathites and thus levites. so where and what does a levite do in christ? does he offer lambs up for sin?

The observation was more along the lines that Jews also have extracted 'meaningful valuable spiritual content' from Gods Words quite apart from the strict literalist natural methods in the exercises of literal rituals.

When one says 'Jew' it does not automatically imply a lamb butcher with the requirement of a temple and court to find spiritual content and meanings in life.

God has always kept His Own Chosen remnant via the election of Grace receipt from above from their masses.

Such will not find Jesus in discord with the directives of Spiritual understandings and in fact will find the exact opposite. That's what He was and what He represents ALIVE to this day moving entirely in that direction Spiritual Direction and Directive by His Own Spirit upon and in them.

The same Spirit that spoke and moved upon and with them in the Old Testament, as Stephen noted here for example:

Acts 7:
44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

Stephen was very plain to the resistors at that time, that it was always the intention of God to tabernacle WITHIN men. God Himself chose Israel to bear the NATURAL ORDER of this first, until we, Gentiles, come in 'settled' to His Accounts.

But God has surely not abandoned them. They were in fact blinded by God and they can be MADE TO SEE any time God feels like showing Himself to them, no different than Saul on the Road to Damascus.

There is Divine Order and Priority in play. But in the end there will be ZERO abandonment of God to the ones of Israel whom He Himself BLINDED in our behalves. There is no cause to see them that way, period, nor does scripture require that sight.

Any man can be given a heart to see, hear and believe by God at any time. IT is however given by God to do so and it is also kept away by God as well.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

They certainly did a very fine fine job keeping His Word intact until THE LIVING WORD arrived on the scene, and also faithful exercised the carnal commandments to a certain extent, again as they were led to do and to perform.

In the final analysis of them and their history, they were working out the patterns of Gods Own Dictates in showing the SHADOW MANNERS of Spiritual things. First the Natural, then the Spiritual is The Way of God. They were the natural order. And they too can be brought into Spiritual Engagement at any time, and in fact are and do already to a certain extent.

It certainly does not pay to slur them or any other person for that matter. But least of all them.

s

 

[smaller]

Smaller, since you believe Jews are saved without Jesus and you don't like the idea of Jews becoming Christian, why don't you buy yourself a copy of the Talmud and become a Jew? Given your statements, you seem to believe Judaism is superior to Christianity.

God has always had those WHOM HE ELECTS to believe regardless of Jesus paint.

Acts 10:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


Trouble is with a lot of sects. They think that by applying their ruby red and certain branded Jesus paint to their lips that now makes them God.


Such obviously can't see the obvious flaw in such thinking.


s

 

[jasoncran]

The observation was more along the lines that Jews also have extracted 'meaningful valuable spiritual content' from Gods Words quite apart from the strict literalist natural methods in the exercises of literal rituals.

When one says 'Jew' it does not automatically imply a lamb butcher with the requirement of a temple and court to find spiritual content and meanings in life.

God has always kept His Own Chosen remnant via the election of Grace receipt from above from their masses.

Such will not find Jesus in discord with the directives of Spiritual understandings and in fact will find the exact opposite. That's what He was and what He represents ALIVE to this day moving entirely in that direction Spiritual Direction and Directive by His Own Spirit upon and in them.

The same Spirit that spoke and moved upon and with them in the Old Testament, as Stephen noted here for example:

Acts 7:
44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

Stephen was very plain to the resistors at that time, that it was always the intention of God to tabernacle WITHIN men. God Himself chose Israel to bear the NATURAL ORDER of this first, until we, Gentiles, come in 'settled' to His Accounts.

But God has surely not abandoned them. They were in fact blinded by God and they can be MADE TO SEE any time God feels like showing Himself to them, no different than Saul on the Road to Damascus.

There is Divine Order and Priority in play. But in the end there will be ZERO abandonment of God to the ones of Israel whom He Himself BLINDED in our behalves. There is no cause to see them that way, period, nor does scripture require that sight.

Any man can be given a heart to see, hear and believe by God at any time. IT is however given by God to do so and it is also kept away by God as well.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

They certainly did a very fine fine job keeping His Word intact until THE LIVING WORD arrived on the scene, and also faithful exercised the carnal commandments to a certain extent, again as they were led to do and to perform.

In the final analysis of them and their history, they were working out the patterns of Gods Own Dictates in showing the SHADOW MANNERS of Spiritual things. First the Natural, then the Spiritual is The Way of God. They were the natural order. And they too can be brought into Spiritual Engagement at any time, and in fact are and do already to a certain extent.

It certainly does not pay to slur them or any other person for that matter. But least of all them.

s

as one believes in christ, to my jewish family I am DEAD. yes they talk to me, but i cant mention HIM to them. grandma and grandpa and at times dad remind me of that so to speak at times. dad doesnt do that as much but i have heard him say to me last year. what YOU are no jew, why ask me about the jewish wedding feasts.my brother could get my grandma to talk to him but i bet he did it a backdoor manner.

messianic jews dont do oral tradition yet they pick which of them to follow., the torah in the diaspora per the rabbis of today and after ad 70 all say we cant follow the torah fully until the temple is built or the messiah comes. thus the messianics are really christians. no christian can offer lambs and goats and bulls and pidgeons for sins. for if we do and do it knowingly( i have asked and confronted several messianic jews) they risk their souls. what do you think hebrews and galatians was adressing?

works and the torah way under the pharisees. sure its not a sin to do the torah as the jews do it today but it will be hard to do yom kippur, passover and other feasts that offer sin sacrifices.

nor do the messianic jews follow the sages or oral traditions or even the kaballah when it points to the lord, i do. odd for jews not to do that. yet when i take what i have seen and learned and been told by the lord as he has told me and showed me things from the tanach and the oral traditions to the jews they recieve it and ponder it more.


one doesnt need to be a "jew" to get that part. two gentiles got me into chabad.org. they know who they are.you think more highly of hebrews then most hebrews.

 

[smaller]

as one believes in christ, to my jewish family I am DEAD. yes they talk to me, but i cant mention HIM to them. grandma and grandpa and at times dad remind me of that so to speak at times. dad doesnt do that as much but i have heard him say to me last year. what YOU are no jew, why ask me about the jewish wedding feasts.my brother could get my grandma to talk to him but i bet he did it a backdoor manner.

messianic jews dont do oral tradition yet they pick which of them to follow., the torah in the diaspora per the rabbis of today and after ad 70 all say we cant follow the torah fully until the temple is built or the messiah comes. thus the messianics are really christians. no christian can offer lambs and goats and bulls and pidgeons for sins. for if we do and do it knowingly( i have asked and confronted several messianic jews) they risk their souls. what do you think hebrews and galatians was adressing?

works and the torah way under the pharisees. sure its not a sin to do the torah as the jews do it today but it will be hard to do yom kippur, passover and other feasts that offer sin sacrifices.

nor do the messianic jews follow the sages or oral traditions or even the kaballah when it points to the lord, i do. odd for jews not to do that. yet when i take what i have seen and learned and been told by the lord as he has told me and showed me things from the tanach and the oral traditions to the jews they recieve it and ponder it more.

one doesnt need to be a "jew" to get that part. two gentiles got me into chabad.org. they know who they are.you think more highly of hebrews then most hebrews.

1 Corinthians 9:20
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

It might appear that a believer in your shoes may try and relate better if you have the pedigree to do so.

They all stand understanding differently anyway so you would stand no different, that is, in your own given understandings.

s

 

[jasoncran]

ok, so when paul said that and wrote it. did he also go to the temple when he sinned or confessed it to christ alone?

did he offer up a sin offering? and in the syagouges there were no sin offering then as the the first diaspora and also the torah itself allowed for sins to be forgiven without the temple and the levites. its called the frontlets and also they way the modern jews get the ideas that they have, its not a sin to do that. but its a sin to clearly offer a lamb for your sins and expect god to forgive it after the cross.

otherwise, you just said i as a jew,dont need the blood, it doesnt apply.if the laptop would run normally and not freeze up i would post the sages and the hassidic jewish concepts where i get that idea on the synagouges from.

and its also mentioned in first king 7. that part about turning and facing the city of jerusalem mentions no offering of lambs and goats. just praying.

 

[smaller]

ok, so when paul said that and wrote it. did he also go to the temple when he sinned or confessed it to christ alone?

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

did he offer up a sin offering? and in the syagouges there were no sin offering then as the the first diaspora and also the torah itself allowed for sins to be forgiven without the temple and the levites.

There has been pretty much zero sin offerings via animal slaughter for quite some time that I am aware of.

its called the frontlets and also they way the modern jews get the ideas that they have, its not a sin to do that. but its a sin to clearly offer a lamb for your sins and expect god to forgive it after the cross.

They aren't doing that either.

otherwise, you just said i as a jew,dont need the blood, it doesnt apply.if the laptop would run normally and not freeze up i would post the sages and the hassidic jewish concepts where i get that idea on the synagouges from.

I never made such a statement. I'd think Jews might be able to see these matters from the O.T. as well:

Isaiah 1:11
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

and its also mentioned in first king 7. that part about turning and facing the city of jerusalem mentions no offering of lambs and goats. just praying.

Many Jews recognize these are internal matters to contemplate. The notion of these various external exercises meaning anything is quite meaningless, even in the majority of their understandings.

It's always a matter of heart.

s

 

[jasoncran]

im sorry, but those are christians not jews. you seem to argue just to argue. when i did i ever say that jews cant be saved? did i ever say that? NO but i do believe that the idea of a levite doing the torah and its levitical sacrifices isnt possible after the cross. that is what this entire thread is about. sure i do what you just said but i cant go to the jews when they offer lambs and goats and join in. that may one day happen. at present no but in pauls day ere ad 70. that was going on and he couldnt join them. so he like me had to stay away from that. im sure when he was in jerusalem he didnt join in there.

modern day judaism is but a shell of what it was,.the jews know it and await the messiah to restore it. i have been told by a orthodox isreali born jew that in isreal they will no longer do the shabat until the messiah comes. isreal has no peace and cant do the torah when they are fighting all the time.the rabbis have said the torah isnt required to please YHWH, in that one doesnt have to be kosher and or shabat. just live and love per the torah and repent however they teach it.

that is orthodox judiasm(hassidic) putting that out.

 

[smaller]

im sorry, but those are christians not jews. you seem to argue just to argue.

Peter accepted this to be a fact jason, even if they do not know God manifest in Flesh, Jesus Christ.

Sorry if you can't see it as Peter did:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Were there only one version of Jesus to paint, I would say you'd have a point, but Jesus Himself is NOT against the above.

There are many 'claims and forms' of Jesus that I also reject because they are FALSE JESUS's, as DO YOU.

when i did i ever say that jews cant be saved? did i ever say that? NO but i do believe that the idea of a levite doing the torah and its levitical sacrifices isnt possible after the cross.

You have said yourself that within Judaism there are also MANY forms of understanding. You can NOT credibly say that NONE of them have ANY spiritual understanding, or that fear God, or that do righteousness because they fear God.

that is what this entire thread is about. sure i do what you just said but i cant go to the jews when they offer lambs and goats and join in. that may one day happen. at present no but in pauls day ere ad 70. that was going on and he couldnt join them. so he like me had to stay away from that. im sure when he was in jerusalem he didnt join in there.

I was pointing out that to reach out one must be sympathetic and meet those we reach out to on their own subjective ground, which we ALL stand on to a very certain extent.

God in Christ will EVER be the Ally of Spiritual Understandings. And there are many such showings in the practices of Judaism even if they don't or can't see it that way. Even moreso than in many christian churches.

modern day judaism is but a shell of what it was,

In some ways it is better than what it used to be. I recently heard some preaching Jews and one could hardly tell the difference in their speakings to any common christian church to tell you the truth. It is not a 'different' God that we and they are engaged with.

.the jews know it and await the messiah to restore it.

There are again many different ways that modern Jews may understand 'restorationism' as well.

i have been told by a orthodox isreali born jew that in isreal they will no longer do the shabat until the messiah comes. isreal has no peace and cant do the torah when they are fighting all the time.the rabbis have said the torah isnt required to please YHWH, in that one doesnt have to be kosher and or shabat. just live and love per the torah and repent however they teach it.

that is orthodox judiasm(hassidic) putting that out.

I would also say that Judaism can be just as divided and confused as everyone else. There is a superabundance of various teachings just as there is in christianity.

s

 

[jasoncran]

i know more about my family and what they say as i read up on it alot. or ask. how many family members that were raised in the temple do you know? i know two that i can meet and talk with and even more on fb that are of my family. dad and my aunt are the most reachable. dad and my bro and i discussed the talmud and judiasm just a few weeks ago.

we have a born again levite on this forum.. his name is sj cohen. he is old enough to be in the shoah, and was in one of the camps. i suggest you ask him what he was taught in the temple. when i quote the sages i bet its also jews that were born after ad 70. i know that to be likely true. rashi. is one of them listed in the links and i read him alot when i feel the need to and ramban is another. so please..both are sages to the modern orthodoxy jews.