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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Issue with O.S.A.S
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Danus
Member
tjw said:
These are exactly the questions and thoughts we should be pondering.
From my view (OSAS) the drunk, (who believes) is saved, however we pay the wage of sin as well as we are judged accordingly.
Our relationship with Christ (For the believer) does not sever, but can be damaged. Obviously getting drunk is not something we can hang out with Christ to do, but that does not mean he's not waiting for us outside the bar (Figure of speech)
It seems to come down to the question of "what does "believe" mean in verses such as John 3:16".Danus said:
Does "believe" mean that we must agree that Jesus is our Saviour and died for our sins so that we can go to Heaven (in other words, believing that this is a fact and trust in Jesus)... OR... Does "believe" mean that we must follow what Jesus commanded and try our best not to do sinful activity?
For a full explanation of salvation, which is what Genesis through Revelations focuses on (regardless of many church doctrines of today), go here: http://www.conditionalsalvation.com/salvation_book (It proves from Genesis through Revelation that salvation is very conditional upon ones obedience)...it's the greatest book against O.S.A.S that I've ever read.
The simple answer is that sin condemns every man, every time. That's why we are to repent and sin no more. If you do sin, then repent. No one can show any verses that make it sound like sin is okay, even after coming to Christ. I could give a couple hundred references off the top of my head, but it appears most don't look those up, which is weird when discussing teachings of the Word.
The word "believe" in Jn 3:16 does imply more than a mere acceptance of a historical fact. The word is broken down from the Greek in that book from the site above. Go to Jn.3:16 in that book... all verses are in order for easy finding. As for drunks... the words from our covenant are clear that no drunkard will inherit the kingdom of God...what about the servant who thought he had more time before his master came back... he was beating his servants and getting drunk... didn't turn out too well for him. Understand church, that all those warnings in our covenant are to saved people. Look up the meaning of "epistle"... or just read them... the language shows who they are written to, even if you don't know the historical facts that the Paul, James, Peter, Jude and John were writing to the church... even if you didn't understand that the 7 epistles of Revelation 2-3 were written to the churches from Christ Himself, through the pen of John.
Only people who obey God and keep His commandments are promise eternal life, not those who profess and do not obey.
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (Rev.22:14)."
The Word is full of such verses... and we still debate if obedience is required for salvation???!!!
Read James, the entire book, or this one verse..."Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (Jas.2:24)."
The simple answer is that sin condemns every man, every time. That's why we are to repent and sin no more. If you do sin, then repent. No one can show any verses that make it sound like sin is okay, even after coming to Christ. I could give a couple hundred references off the top of my head, but it appears most don't look those up, which is weird when discussing teachings of the Word.
The word "believe" in Jn 3:16 does imply more than a mere acceptance of a historical fact. The word is broken down from the Greek in that book from the site above. Go to Jn.3:16 in that book... all verses are in order for easy finding. As for drunks... the words from our covenant are clear that no drunkard will inherit the kingdom of God...what about the servant who thought he had more time before his master came back... he was beating his servants and getting drunk... didn't turn out too well for him. Understand church, that all those warnings in our covenant are to saved people. Look up the meaning of "epistle"... or just read them... the language shows who they are written to, even if you don't know the historical facts that the Paul, James, Peter, Jude and John were writing to the church... even if you didn't understand that the 7 epistles of Revelation 2-3 were written to the churches from Christ Himself, through the pen of John.
Only people who obey God and keep His commandments are promise eternal life, not those who profess and do not obey.
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (Rev.22:14)."
The Word is full of such verses... and we still debate if obedience is required for salvation???!!!
Read James, the entire book, or this one verse..."Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (Jas.2:24)."
francisdesales
Member
jasoncran said:
I believe that the Lord was able to measure the work of repentance and conversion in the thief's proclamation. This inner movement of the heart is what the Lord desires from us. Not just a faith proclamation, but one that trusts what Jesus promises (like when He asks the Lord, dying on the cross, to "remember me when you come into your kingdom". This speaks of some knowledge of the teachings of the Lord and confidence that death would not prevent Jesus from executing what He willed to do. That is a powerful work, while one is dying with someone else...)
Regards
This is why we need to know that there are two salvations of Scripture. 1) initial salvation that takes all past sin away, which is righteousness (1 Jn.3:5). 2) eternal salvation that is only given at the time of death for those who die in righteousness...w/o sin (Rev.22:11). Thats why Eph.2:8-9 seem to contradict Jas.2:24... one says we are saved through faith,, not works (keeping the Mosaic law)... the other says we are saved by works (obedience to God), not by faith alone.... BECAUSE Paul was talking about initial salvation that happens when all past sins are taken away (Rom.3:25; 1 Jn.3:7), James was talking about eternal salvation that comes from continued obedience that keeps one righteous. It should be common sense, but unrighteousness makes righteousness unrighteous. If this was not so then what was Paul talking about in Rom.13:11?.... these people were Christians he was talking to..."And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed (Rom.13:11)."jasoncran said:
Those who have faith have the hope of all eternal things, yet no guarantee... that's what hope is Romans 8:24 - [For we are saved by hope] In the final analysis, present salvation is a hope. Many things can happen before the final change to immortality and eternal life. 1 Thes.5:8 - [the hope of salvation] Salvation is a hope and not actually an unforfeitable possession until the next life (1Th. 5:8; Rom. 8:20-25; 2Th. 2:16; 1Pet. 1:5,9,13). Eternal life is also a hope now, even though we possess it (Tit. 1:2; 3:7; Heb. 3:6; 6:11,11,18-19; 1Pet. 1:3,13). It will not actually be an unforfeitable and an eternal possession until the next life and at the end of a life of sowing to the Spirit (Mt. 7:13-14; 18:8-9; 19:28-29; Mk. 10:29-30; Lk. 18:29-30; Rom. 2:7; 6:21-23; Gal. 6:7-8; 1Tim. 1:16; 4:8; 6:12,19; 1Pet. 1:5,9,13; 3:7; 1Jn. 2:25; Jude 1:20-24; Dan. 12:2; Jn. 5:28-29).
The believer can be assured that he now has eternal life (1 John 5:13; John 3:16, 36; 10:27-29), that he can keep it eternally by remaining in Christ (John 15:1-6; 1 John 2:24-25; Col. 1:23; 2:6-7), that it is given by Christ (John 10:10, 28) and God (Rom. 6:23), that it is by believing "in" Christ (John 3:16; 1 John 5:11) and "on" Him (John 3:36; 6:47; 1 John 5:13), that one need never perish (John 10:27-29), that Christ is our eternal life (John 17:3; Col. 3:4; 1 John 1:1, 2; 2:24-25; 5:11-13), that we have redemption (Eph 1:7; 1 Pet 1:18-23; Heb. 9:12), that we are righteous (1 Cor 1:30; 1 John 3:7), that we are reconciled to God (Col 1:21; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Rom. 5:10), and that we have passed from death to life (1 John 3:14; Eph 2:1-9).
The Bible also gives us the assurance that we have peace (Rom. 5:1; Eph 2:14; Col. 1:20), atonement (Rom. 5:11), an inheritance (Eph. 1:11, 18; 1 Pet 1:4), hope (Heb. 6:19; 1 Pet. 1:3; Tit. 1:3; 3:7), access to God (Rom. 5:2; Eph. 2:18; 3:12), liberty (Gal. 5:1), a good conscience (Acts 24:16; 1 Tim. 3:9; 1 Pet. 3:16), an unction (1 John 2:27), an advocate (1 John 2:1), a high priest (Heb. 4:14-16; 7:25; 9:24), the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16; 2 Tim. 1:7), confidence (1 John 5:14), and salvation (Acts 4:12; Rom. 1:16).
As believers we can know that we are forgiven (1 John 1:9), justified (Acts 13:39; Rom. 5:1), sanctified (1 Cor. 6:11), born again (John 3:1-8; 1 John 5:1, 18), and that we are saved and Christ abides in us and we in Him (Matt. 1:21; John 15:1-7; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 8:9, 10), but all these things are based upon conditions. Otherwise, if it is on an unconditional basis that we experience and keep all these blessings, and if it is solely God's choice and man has nothing to do about it, God would be obligated to bless all men alike. In this case, no man could lose his soul but this is not true. Conditional eternal assurance is the only kind in Scripture and the only kind of assurance we can know. The unconditional kind cannot be known, because it could not be real assurance. Anyone who wants unconditional security so that he can do as he pleases and still be saved is not right at heart. There is no possible righteous motive in such an attitude. If the purpose is not to give one an excuse to continue in sin, then what is the purpose? If one's purpose is to have assurance that one can be saved eternally, that is the purpose of conditional security teaching, and he can have this kind of security. That is the principle we contend for and what the Bible teaches, so there need not be the slightest doubt that one can continue eternally saved by means of grace that is provided in the Gospel through Jesus Christ.
What does this all mean??? Sin condemns all w/o respector of person.... for believers and nonbelievers alike.... God has never said any different for future sin. People read 1 Jn.2:1-2 as a reference of eternal security, but even that passage tells the righteous not to sin, BUT IF you do, you can repent and be made righteous again (1 Jn.1:9). If 1 Jn.2:1-2 is about Jesus automatically forgiving sin w/o any other actions on man's part, then explain the 4 verses that follow..."3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked (1 Jn.2:3-6)."
What about Jesus telling the believers "the church" to repent, or He would fight against them (Rev.2:5)?... also Rev.2:16, 21, 22; 3:3, 19
Sorry, I tried to be brief
For those who actually look up reference verses and are truly seeking the Biblical truth, go here: http://www.conditionalsalvation.com/salvation_book It answers all these salvation questions... I wrote it, so I have that confidence b/c of that fact... I truly have studied and know what the confusions are and I know the answers are all in that free book (great study tool and reference finder).
For those who want to hold their doctrine of OSAS no matter what.... you are easily seen and my responses will be to those who are seeking
jasoncran
Member
two types of salvation, really? so the initial is looseable then in your eyes.
if i told my wife that i loved her, yet never married her, never made love to her(if we did marry), but treated her like crap would that make me a good lover and demostrate my love?
on the contrary if i love my wife and tell her, and marry her, uplift her, make love to her, care for her. i think this love is genuine.do i have to always dialy remind her i love her?
if we do the former to God and dont care then we arent saved in the first place. what of those beset sins that we get involved in or the minor ones that when we are killed or die and dont repent of. are these ignored in your eyes?
my view is this, best not to sin, and not try to see what we can get away with but rather repent and strive to be the best example for christ.
can we ever be perfect?
if i told my wife that i loved her, yet never married her, never made love to her(if we did marry), but treated her like crap would that make me a good lover and demostrate my love?
on the contrary if i love my wife and tell her, and marry her, uplift her, make love to her, care for her. i think this love is genuine.do i have to always dialy remind her i love her?
if we do the former to God and dont care then we arent saved in the first place. what of those beset sins that we get involved in or the minor ones that when we are killed or die and dont repent of. are these ignored in your eyes?
my view is this, best not to sin, and not try to see what we can get away with but rather repent and strive to be the best example for christ.
can we ever be perfect?
jasoncran said:
Hi Jason,
I stay clear of scenerios when talking doctrine. I use Scripture. Here is a Scriptural reply to your last question:
Five Commands to be Perfect:
1. To Abraham (Genesis 17:1)
2. To Israel (Deut. 18:13)
3. To Solomon (1 Kings 8:61)
4. To Christians (2 Cor. 13:11)
5. To all men (Mat.5:48) a [perfect] Greek: teleios (GSN-<G5046>), complete in conformity to God's laws
Ten Things in which We can be Perfect:
1. In our walk (Genesis 17:1; Galatians 5:16,25)
2. In holiness (2 Cor. 7:1; Hebrews 12:14)
3. In our ways (2 Samuel 22:33; Psalm 18:32)
4. In peace (Isaiah 26:3)
5. In unity (John 17:23; 1 Cor. 1:10; Ephes. 4:13)
6. In good works (Hebrews 13:21; 2 Tim. 3:17)
7. In God's will (Romans 12:1-2)
8. In patience (James 1:4)
9. In faith (James 2:22)
10. In love (1 John 2:5; 1 John 4:17-18)
God's Word is tried in the fire. It has stood all tests. It has never failed those who have pleaded its promises and met its terms before its author.
It should certainly be clear that salvation FROM sin is taught in Scripture. The following passages prove that God wants every Christian to be FREE from sin: "Thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people FROM their sins (Matt. 1:21), "sin NO MORE, lest a worse thing come upon thee" (John 5:14; 8:11), "Whosoever committeth sin is the SERVANT OF SIN. And the servant abideth not in the house forever" (John 8:34-36), "Shall we CONTINUE IN SIN, that grace may abound? GOD FORBID. How shall we that are DEAD TO SIN, live any longer therein? . . . Knowing this, that our old man was CRUCIFIED with him, THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DESTROYED, THAT HENCEFORTH WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN.... Likewise reckon ye also yourselves TO BE DEAD UNTO SIN. . . . LET NOT SIN REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU.... Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; WHETHER OF SIN UNTO DEATH, OR OF OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS?.... Being then made FREE FROM SIN, ye became servants of righteousness.... When ye were the servants of sin ye were free from righteousness.... But now being made FREE FROM SIN, and become servants of righteousness, and become SERVANTS to GOD, ye have your FRUIT UNTO HOLINESS, and THE END EVERLASTING LIFE" (Rom. 6:1-23), "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus HATH MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH" (Rom. 8:1-3 ), "And they that are Christ's HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH THE AFFECTIONS AND LUSTS" (Gal. 5:24), "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us FROM ALL SIN" (1 John 1:7, 9).
So, I ask you, is God unfair to command such devotion to His authority?
Once saved, always saved is a man made doctrine that is not supported biblically. There are numerous passages in Scripture that talk about falling from grace. Previous posters pretty much covered it, i think. You have my sympathy-i was in a simular situation before and people in my former church just wouldn't listen to reason. I switched churches and never been happier.
jasoncran
Member
to all and x truth when do break the law that happens alot, we speed , we fail to follows the laws. doesnt god say to obey the laws of the land so long as they dont violate his commands. many speed, i have done this, and am called to repent.bluegrey said:
we can kill with speed. i mention those cause we have some that died that we know that or think that were saved but may have not repented of those small or large sins(all sin leads to death) white lies or the murder are all judge the same. did jesus lie? white lie? no , neither should we.
to shad, i know more about the power of the lord to set free than you seem to think, but he sets us free not us.
i have bet set free from these.
bisexuality
(according to the rcc i shouldnt be set free from the lust of looking at men, i dont desire a man any more. its lie to say that the bi has a choice, his or her only choice is that they choose which oriention that they want to act on. when they do the desire for the other still present, i have no such disposition)
porn. this ruled me, i fasted, prayed other prayed, then one day gone. i haven't watched a porno in a few months dont miss them
and i will add this shad, if i or we can be just as sinless as jesus then we can judge and condem others, as we would then judge like jesus would, that isnt in the bible.
theres more to this that i can add, miracles i have seen, blessings and so on.
watchman F
Member
Yes it is extremely dangerous. Many will end up in hell never realizing their need for repentance because of the OSAS doctrine.Danus said:
Danus
Member
watchman F said:
Well, let's see, the people (Christians) that I know who hold to OSAS are very aware of the need of repentance. Repentance is part of what's taught in the Christian faith. It's a need we will all have and have and no one...no one will die without the need of it. Will you?
jasoncran
Member
negative, might i suggest listening to the men like adrain rogers who called churches to boycott gays and lesbian day at disney , kept the baptist demonation from going liberal like the other churches have. he has preached that the cross isnt easy.watchman F said:
why do people always assume that osas means sin all you want. that like me assuming that no osasers believe in works only salvation(that is the way) many come across.
i wasnt osas always, and when i wasnt i knew that god wasnt waiting for me to fail, like some seem to come across.(if i assumed that) does the god of the bible call want us to live in fear always wondering if we are saved? like this, oh man i'm not sure that i'm saved, i'm not sure that i'm good enough.
You miss the point and a key piece of the gospel. The thief had no time to prove his obedience to the gospel of Christ. The works spoken of by Jesus (Rev.2-3)? The works spoken of by Paul... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling? Works spoken of by James... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?jasoncran said:
The reason that man on the cross was justified, was b/c he believed; THEREFORE, all his past sins were forgiven. The absence of unrighteousness from a person (1 Jn.1:9), makes that person righteous, as Jesus was (1 Jn.3:2, 7), who had no sin (1 Jn.3:5). If that thief on the cross was to have had the possibility of living past those hours/minutes, then Jesus would have told that man to go and sin no more (Jn.5:14; 8:11, 31, 34, 51). All that man's past sins had been forgiven; he was righteous; so he died righteous and will ever be righteous (Rev.22:11).
Countless believers will be sent 2 hell b/c they wouldn't go past Jn 3:16 & believe the hard truth. Mat.7:21-23 says its b/c they were workers of iniquity & didnt do the will of God. WHY!? B/c they did NOT keep the commandments (Rev.22:14-15; Mat.19:17; Jn.6:27; 8:31, 51; 14:15-24; 15:14; 2 Thes.1:8-9; Heb.5:9; Jas.1:2...2-25; 2:14-26; 5:9, 12, 19-20; 1 Pt.4:17-19; 1 Jn.2:3-4,29; 3:1-10; 2 Jn.9; 3 Jn.11; Jude 4-8; etc).
Rev.22:11 states the fact that as a man dies he will be forever (Heb.9:27; Rev.22:14-15). ETERNAL salvation, which none of us have now as an unforfeitable gift, requires OBEDIENCE. STOP SINNING!!! If you do, then repent for eternal righteousness sake (1 Jn.5-6, 9; 2:1-2; Eze.18:24-26, 30-32)!!! Only PAST sins are forgiven brothers & sisters (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:8-9; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:1, 7-8; Jas.5:19-20; Eze.18:24-26, 30-32; Jas.1:13-15; Rev.2:5, 16, 21-22; 3:3, 19; ect)
You've been given many scriptures. You have no excuse. The OSAS don't say to go and keep sinning, but all who look on the flip side see a gospel where you can sin and go to heaven. That is not the gospel Jesus taught. Not one passage in all of Scripture says anyone can have eternal life if they die in sin. On the contrary, sin STILL brings spiritual death to all, in Christ or not. Sin condemns all man when sin is conceived. Jesus alone makes one holy and only past sins are forgiven. Without holiness, no one will see eternal life.jasoncran said: