Issue with O.S.A.S

[Pard]

I think the name "Once saved, always saved" is tricky, at best. It is true, don't get me wrong, but it implies something entirely different than it actually means.

A person who is new in Christ or has yet to come to Christ will see this and go "Sweet! I am "saved" I can go back to living my old life full of unending sin and no restraint!" This thought is in error. The key is you have to be SAVED. We all know that when someone is really saved they receive the Holy Spirit and that they are born-again. They will have little desire for their old life. They will be content because they have a new life in Christ.

Those who really are saved will always be saved, but this is because they will never stray from Christ once they are saved.

Mystery seems to have the right idea, if you take the "once" out of OSAS it does make more sense.

Romans 8:30 "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."

Its pretty explanatory. Once a person is saved there is nothing that will keep him from heaven one day. God knows who will make it to heaven and He grants those people with salvation and His most Holy Spirit, no one but those who will see beyond the pearly gates will ever receive either of this gifts.

A believer is born-again. They are new creatures. To become "unsaved" they would have to be "unborn" or become old creatures again. You don't go back to being a normal human once God has changed your very body!

 

[watchman F]

I think the name "Once saved, always saved" is tricky, at best. It is true, don't get me wrong, but it implies something entirely different than it actually means.

A person who is new in Christ or has yet to come to Christ will see this and go "Sweet! I am "saved" I can go back to living my old life full of unending sin and no restraint!" This thought is in error. The key is you have to be SAVED. We all know that when someone is really saved they receive the Holy Spirit and that they are born-again. They will have little desire for their old life. They will be content because they have a new life in Christ.

Those who really are saved will always be saved, but this is because they will never stray from Christ once they are saved.

Mystery seems to have the right idea, if you take the "once" out of OSAS it does make more sense.

Romans 8:30 "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."

Its pretty explanatory. Once a person is saved there is nothing that will keep him from heaven one day. God knows who will make it to heaven and He grants those people with salvation and His most Holy Spirit, no one but those who will see beyond the pearly gates will ever receive either of this gifts.

A believer is born-again. They are new creatures. To become "unsaved" they would have to be "unborn" or become old creatures again. You don't go back to being a normal human once God has changed your very body!

You post is thought out and I understand were you are coming from, and I agree with much of it. However Paul warned believers many times against loosing their faith. He would not have done this if it were impossible.

 

[Pard]

Another theory on why Paul said that is because sometimes if we just life a certain way for long enough, even if we do not truly believe in it, we will come to believe in it. I know that may sound like I am stretching, but I take from personal experience.

When I first became a Christian I had to try so hard to be Christ-like. I had to think out every action I made and every word I said. And let me tell you, I was a bit of a skeptic that whole time, but I wanted to believe, so i feigned belief through forcing my actions. One day I stopped trying, but I didn't stop being Christ-like. I didn't have to force myself into reading the Bible or praying or praising Christ. One day it all snapped into place. So, I feel that maybe this is the experience that Paul was speaking about.

Just my

 

[Vic C.]

Peter quotes proverbs...."Fool returning to his Folly"

So I can lose my salvation. How does this happen? :verysad

Yes, Peter quotes Proverbs, written hundreds of years before the revelation of the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

If it was given to you freely, it will not be taken back from you. Don't be discouraged by the naysayers. Satan works overtime trying to get God's people to doubt because he knows it leads to doubting your faith.

It's akin to those who tell you God didn't heal you because you didn't have the right amount of faith. Hogwash!

My God is great enough to be the cause of the perseverance of His saints. Drop the term o.s.a.s and go with Perseverance of the Saints instead. :yes Remember, we persevere through His strength and not of our own. The key to it is, who gets the glory for our salvation?

 

[francisdesales]

If it was given to you freely, it will not be taken back from you.

But clearly, we can give up a gift and reject it.

Don't be discouraged by the naysayers. Satan works overtime trying to get God's people to doubt because he knows it leads to doubting your faith.

It's not a matter of doubting, for as long as you are obeying the commandments, you are in Christ and your faith is secure. It's a matter of working out your salvation in fear and trembling, for God provides the will, etc. When a person wanders from that, one must wonder whether they are grieving the Spirit of God and are giving up that conditional offer.

My God is great enough to be the cause of the perseverance of His saints. Drop the term o.s.a.s and go with Perseverance of the Saints instead. :yes Remember, we persevere through His strength and not of our own. The key to it is, who gets the glory for our salvation?

Agree, get rid of OSAS, but PoS is not much better. God provides the gift of grace to enable us to love and have faith, but He does not force us to.

Salvation to eternal life is conditional, many "if's" in there, picking up our cross, unless you do the will of the Father, etc... Without God, we cannot do this, but we also have the option of NOT taking it up with God's grace.

If it all depends on God and not at all upon men, then all men will be saved - since God desires it...

Regards

 

[HisSheep]

If it all depends on God and not at all upon men, then all men will be saved - since God desires it...

This is the bulk of the problem. People have convinced themselves that God wants to save all people. This prompts a misunderstanding of John 3:16. It makes God into the sort of warm, soft, fuzzy god they would like to have. But listen to the Parable of the Sower; God will not save all men; only those represented by the wheat. Those men represented by the tares are not of God in the first place. They will not have faith (the gift of God) as a result of their being weeds. Listen to How Jesus put it when He was talking to some of the tares:

John 10:

26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Why didn't they believe? They didn't believe because they were not His sheep.

He also put it this way:

John 8:

43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

Why were they unable to hear or believe Jesus? That's right! They are sons of the devil!

God does not want to save all people.

I'll point this passage out again, as well:

Luke 10:

21At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Here, Jesus is full of joy, and praising God for hiding the truth from some people. Imagine that!

God plainly does not want to save all people.

The works-based crowd has God mourning over every damned soul. That concept is a humanized apparition of the true God. God will accomplish every single thing He sets out to do – the Bible is clear on this. To think otherwise means He isn’t very all-powerful.

The devil isn’t any challenge to my God. How ‘bout yours?

-HisSheep

 

[Danus]

Hi, I have a problem. My pastor preaches O.S.A.S sermons...I don't know what to do. Should I ask him to explain it to me?

What is the theology behind O.S.A.S.

Oats, I'm sure you won't have a problem joining the anti-OSAS club, but I would suggest you just talk to your pastor more on it and study up a little more on what it's really about. You will find that salvation is not anymore or less in the hands of those who accept OSAS or those who do not.

Here is a link to a resource that I like if you want to check it out. I embrace OSAS, by the way, not that my endorsing it make it any more or less credible. Good luck.

http://www.av1611.org/etern.html

 

[jasoncran]

lovely, once you have tasted salvation and truly have and then walk away ye make the crufixaction afresh and theres no more sacrifices, meaning you cant be forgiven, its akin to blaspemy of the holy spirit. its unforgiveable!

 

[Oats]

Okay...thanks guys...I'm planning on eventually going into ministry. I had a talk with my pastor...It went great

 

[Mike]

This is the bulk of the problem. People have convinced themselves that God wants to save all people. This prompts a misunderstanding of John 3:16.

Then what about 1 Peter 2? "3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

More misinterpreting in reading "God-wants-all-men-to-be-saved"?

Not throwing spears at you, just tossin' the ball, lookin' to play catch.

You know how I feel about OSAS and Predestination. And you know I don't see this as something that needs to divide. I'm quite certain that when we face our Lord, your misunderstanding of both of them won't be a deal breaker! ;)

 

[watchman F]

Okay...thanks guys...I'm planning on eventually going into ministry. I had a talk with my pastor...It went great

There are a few false doctrines I could stomach as no church is doctirnally perfect, but OSAS is not one of them. There are certain doctrines that if taught I would have to leave the church, and #1 on that list would probably be OSAS

 

[Pard]

Okay...thanks guys...I'm planning on eventually going into ministry. I had a talk with my pastor...It went great

 

[watchman F]

But can we ever really stop sinning

I have some prayer to do

well, whether we can or cannot stop sinning is a different subject all together. OSAS teaches just that Once you are Saved You can never turn from your faith and back into habitual unrepentant sin, and or if you do you are still saved. This is absolutely not true. OSAS is a very dangerous false doctrine. Here are some scripture that show you can turn from your faith.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Colossian 1
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2nd Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The fact is to get into Heaven we must endure until the end, keep our faith until our deaths or Christs return. I will give scripture for that truth on my next post do not want to overload you with scripture in this one.

Here are those enduring until the end verse I promised

Matthew 24
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2nd Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Hebrews 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


Here are 6 passage of scripture that says we must finish the race/endure until the end to obtain eternal life as Paul says in Philippians 3
Philippians 3
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

And again in 1st Corinthians
1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Paul knew starting the race meant nothing, but finishing the race brought about eternal life.

 

[jasoncran]

only a small percentage actually teach eternale security properly. my chruch teaches it right but the pastor emphasizes holiness and so on.

 

[watchman F]

only a small percentage actually teach eternale security properly. my chruch teaches it right but the pastor emphasizes holiness and so on.

Yes, the free grace, easy believeism, say this prayer after me churches are the ones I was referring to

 

[francisdesales]

This is the bulk of the problem. People have convinced themselves that God wants to save all people.

That's what the Bible says, sorry you disagree.

He truly does desire to save all men. However, salvation is conditional. As a God of Love, He desires that we respond to Him. Without this response, there is no salvation. Thus, man has the free will to sin, or call upon God to ask for graces to turn from sin. If we push God's Providence too far and forget about man being a secondary cause, having free will, you make God the author of sin (inevitably taken to its logical conclusion, the Calvin stance becomes the hyper-Calvin stance, condemned long time ago at the Council of Orange)

This prompts a misunderstanding of John 3:16. It makes God into the sort of warm, soft, fuzzy god they would like to have.

Oh, there are a number of other verses that talk about salvation as being offered universally. OFFERED... Christ has redeemed the WORLD. But this is not a "fuzzy, soft God". It is a God who demands our obedience. He provides the ability to do just that, if we allow Him. He does not command us to do something He does not provide us with the ability to do.

But listen to the Parable of the Sower; God will not save all men; only those represented by the wheat.

Ah, but the seed falls EVERYWHERE, my friend, it is the SOIL that is the problem. You are presenting a parable that proves my point. Man's response or lack thereof, not God's lack of graces.

Those men represented by the tares are not of God in the first place. They will not have faith (the gift of God) as a result of their being weeds. Listen to How Jesus put it when He was talking to some of the tares:

Oh, I thought you were talking about the Parable of the Sower, not the Tares. Yes, indeed, the enemy has sown the weeds. God knows who is a weed, but we don't. That is why the weeds are not uprooted today, because the weeds of today can become the wheat of tomorrow. That's the whole point of evangelization.

John 10:

26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Why didn't they believe? They didn't believe because they were not His sheep.

They did not believe, THUS, they were not His sheep, not that God made them goats from the beginning, unable to become sheep. God saw them as sheep in the eternal NOW that is for God, but we are secondary causes, since God allows us to choose.

He also put it this way:

John 8:

43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

Why were they unable to hear or believe Jesus? That's right! They are sons of the devil!

Because of their unbelief, not because they were born unable to ever believe. Again, this makes God responsible for sin and evil.

The concept of "JUDGMENT" presumes that God is JUDGING MAN, NOT HIMSELF!!! You are misunderstanding the Word.

God does not want to save all people.

He was just joking???

I'll point this passage out again, as well:

Luke 10:

21At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Here, Jesus is full of joy, and praising God for hiding the truth from some people. Imagine that!

God wants people to be obedient out of trust and love in God, not by doing externals while having no love in their hearts. Salvation is available to all men who love, since God is Love. The use of parables was intended to draw out that person who REALLY was seeking GOD, not honors or free food or feel-good kudos from other men.

The works-based crowd has God mourning over every damned soul. That concept is a humanized apparition of the true God. God will accomplish every single thing He sets out to do – the Bible is clear on this. To think otherwise means He isn’t very all-powerful.

The "blame it on God cause He made me sin" crowd has it wrong. He offers salvation conditionally. That is His will, that men be saved, based upon conditions that He establishes, such as faith in Him. Read all that stuff in the Bible where we are supposed to OBEY God??? He doesn't just randomly choose people to save.

The devil isn’t any challenge to my God. How ‘bout yours?

God keeps the devil in existence, so of course not. It is His will that the devil remain, since overcoming satan is part of His plan. Because God allows men to choose death doesn't mean that His plan fails. He desires men to be saved, based upon conditions that must be met.. If they don't meet those conditions, the fault lies with man, not God because He isn't "powerful enough"...

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Peter quotes proverbs...."Fool returning to his Folly"

So I can lose my salvation. How does this happen? :verysad

Yes, Peter quotes Proverbs, written hundreds of years before the revelation of the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

If it was given to you freely, it will not be taken back from you. Don't be discouraged by the naysayers. Satan works overtime trying to get God's people to doubt because he knows it leads to doubting your faith.

It's akin to those who tell you God didn't heal you because you didn't have the right amount of faith. Hogwash!

My God is great enough to be the cause of the perseverance of His saints. Drop the term o.s.a.s and go with Perseverance of the Saints instead. :yes Remember, we persevere through His strength and not of our own. The key to it is, who gets the glory for our salvation?

Hi Vic

Well, here is one topic in which we agree upon. If the OT Law could have saved anyone, then God would not have had a need to send His Son to be the saviour of the world.

Man can not of his own bring about his own salvation. Salvation is a free gift, and salvation should be accepted by/from Him who gives it to us freely. Our salvation is based upon the Love of God, and lets also not forget his mercy and compassion. God has told us, that he will have mercy upon those whom he will give mercy, and compassion upon those whom he will give compassion. This shows us the Love of God. We were also saved by His grace, and not of our own works.

The only condition within this free gift of salvation are the promises of rewards and crowns. This is why we work out our own salvation with trembling and fear. Not that we fear that we can loose our salvation. Because if that were true, it would contradict the fact that God did not give us the Spirit of fear. God gave us the Spirit of power, love, and of a sound mind.

Since I could not earn my salvation, it stands to logic, that I can not loose it.

God being all knowing and all powerful, has predestined us from before the foundations of the world, to be holy and without blame, IN Christ, in love.

Throughout the consistency of the Word of God, while looking at the OT, which is for our learning. We notice that the loss we can endure, is the loss of a part of our inheritance. In the OT, God would not allow the many not to enter into the promise land because of unbelief. The promise land was an inheritance given by God unto the children of Israel. God had them wander in the wilderness for 40 years until the elders died. This does not mean that they lost their salvation through the suffering, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. All it means, is that they lost the promises of God to go into the promise land and receive the land of milk and honey.

The same will hold true with those whom God has chosen from before the foundations of the world. They can loose the part of their ineheritance that they did not hang on too. It is ours to claim . It is ours to protect. If we throw it away, we only have ourselves to blame for this loss. However, eternal salvation will never be lost. God would not have chosen you from before the foundations of the world if he would allow you as one of his sheep to be lost. And we know that God will not allow that to happen !

 

[XTruth]

www.conditionalsalvation.com/salvation_book

God told me to write this in 2007. I spent most of my waking hours doing so for 12 months. It uses ALL verses I could find used by the believers of both sides, as well as 100's more. Any verse your pastor uses to prove OSAS should be correctly used in my book. All are in order from Genesis through Revelation, so you will be able to find desired verses easily.

 

[veteran]

It all leads back to the question of 'what must I do to be saved?', and what sin is, doesn't it?

I think part of the wondering Oats might be dealing with is the problem of sin even after we've come to Christ and believed and been baptized. Some Churches today lie, and say it's impossible to have sin after coming to Christ, basing that from 1 John 3.

The truth is that even after coming to Christ, while trying not to have sin in our lives, we invariably will do little slip ups, for we all fall short of the glory of God. Apostle Paul taught we all were concluded under sin so that Salvation would be through Jesus Christ Who was without sin (Gal.3:22). In Romans 7, Apostle Paul showed there is a difference between our flesh and our spirit. Paul said the good that he would do, he finds himself not doing; and evil that he would not, he finds himself doing, so there is a war going on between our fleshy members and our spirit.

Then in Romans 8, Paul continues that Christ died on the cross so those who walk after the Spirit have no condemnation of sin. He was very specific that is for those who walk after the Spirit, and not by the flesh.

Yet in some Churches today, there are sins of the flesh being allowed to continue in support of their Salvation. And they show their sin openly, like a trophy. Some of those fly a rainbow flag, so you should know which ones I'm talking about. Those Churches are not convicting sin, but supporting it. And it's in those type of Churches which the OSAS doctrine most benefits, and is most used. That should easily show how doctrines like OSAS can be very dangerous to one's soul.

 

[tjw]

I currently don't have a position on OSAS (I want to research it further).

I have a question: If OSAS is NOT true, does that mean that believing that "Jesus died for our sins" (believing that that actually happened and trusting in Jesus) is NOT good enough to make it into Heaven and that we must also do/do not do certain things.

For example, if someone believes in their mind that Jesus died for our sins and they have faith in Jesus, but, that person enjoys getting drunk on the weekends and knowingly believes that getting drunk is a sin and still does it anyway, is that person going to Heaven?

Would trying to remain sober be adding to the work of Jesus?... In other words, just believing in your mind that "Jesus died for our sins" is not good enough.

This goes with the idea that Christians have a "license to sin."

But, then, what about the idea that someone who has faith in Jesus would not enjoy getting drunk (good works are a result of faith) and would not get drunk BECAUSE they have faith in Jesus...?

Sorry for jumping around in this post...