James 2 And OSAS

[Deborah13]

even in the face of common sense and logic.

I see what you are saying but I think that what may appear to be common sense and logic to one person just isn't to another.

I would say that if they can really see the common sense and logic (not speaking of religion, using that term loosely) they could deny it opening but if they really see it they must know it's true.

I think what we are looking for here is agreement based on what we see as common sense and logic.

No matter how hard I try to get my head around God the Father sacrificing His only Son for me, there is no common sense or logic for it and then when I add even more grace to that, blessings, allowing for repenting to stay close to Him.....none of it is common sense or logic to me. It's just so big.
He's a perfect Father, I'm a human...need I say more.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Usually, by the time you get to examining Greek or Hebrew words you've already come to that 'over-thought' place. (Honestly, I think it mostly futile to resort to Greek/ Hebrew studies to resolve a doctrinal conflict.)

Eliminate tense? Is this your answer?

No.

In general, eliminate the search for tense beyond the various English translations of the Bible we have at our disposal. THAT is my answer.

It should be if we are to depart from 'having' salvation as a 'present tense' matter, as you seem to desire and promote.

s

I do not desire and promote that. Scripture plainly teaches us salvation is present, future, and everything in between...provided you are, as the scriptures suggest, continuing in your faith in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think what we are looking for here is agreement based on what we see as common sense and logic.

We are saved on the condition of believing in Christ's substitutionary work on the cross. Common sense and logic say you must continue in that faith to keep the substitutionary work of Christ at work for you.

When the blood stops ministering on your behalf in heaven, because of your rejection of it, how can that blood continue to minister for you?

At salvation, faith was the access way to the grace of that salvation. Can we shut the door of faith and still be able to access the grace that faith opened up for us?

 

[jeff77]

Jeff, do you think it's possible to "show" a "true faith"? Do you think this is what James is teaching in James 2? See, if James is teaching that it's possible for us to know if a person is truly justified by looking at his actions this means, once this threshold has been crossed, there is no more doubt about the person's soul. He is saved. If this person then backslides, the standard line of "was never saved to begin with" can't be used. We can see by his actions that he WAS saved to begin with.

It all hinges on whether you believe James teaches that when we perform "good deeds" we are not effecting our salvation, we are "showing" that we possess "saving faith".

Ok, I know that in my own life I have works as well as faith. I am not one of the one's that just gets saved, checks the list of things to do and then goes back to the old ways. In my opinion that person may not have been saved to begin with.
On the other hand I believe there could be people that seem to do many good deeds and still not be saved by grace. But concerning that there is no way I can know for sure. I went back and read James 2 again and I still don't see how that indefinitely proves that OSAS is wrong. Or how using the argument of not being saved in the first place disqualifies the OSAS stance. It seems to me that your saying that if I believe what I just said that I actually have non-OSAS views and don't even know it? Forgive me if am wrong I am not trying to put words in your mouth. At this point I am just kinda thinking out loud.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It all hinges on whether you believe James teaches that when we perform "good deeds" we are not effecting our salvation, we are "showing" that we possess "saving faith".

'Good deeds effecting salvation' to a Protestant instantly gets heard as 'trying to earn salvation'. 'Works' is the other four letter word of the faith in Protestantism ('law' is the other). Works instantly means 'trying to be saved by works' when used in a doctrinal discussion.

My personal take on this is good deeds (obedience) affects our salvation in the sense that it is the necessary validation that MUST accompany a claim to faith in Christ, or that claim to faith is not real...as James puts it, not able to save. I mean that's what James plainly says. But somehow OSAS dismisses what James says and that an inactive faith CAN save, in direct contradiction to him.

So I believe that James is teaching we show our faith to be of the saving kind when we can see that faith in what we do, but I have a hard time believing, based on this and other scripture, that we are saved once and for all, no matter what even if we stop showing our faith to be of the kind that is able to save . I obviously can't get that out of the passage. It actually helps the non-OSAS argument, because he plainly says the faith that saves is the faith that acts, not the faith that doesn't act, or used to act.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is why I don't believe that James can mean we can stop having the faith that saves (an active faith) and still think we have the faith that saves:

"10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:10-12 NASB)

 

[Deborah13]

Common sense and logic

It seems to me that man's common sense and logic, is not the same as God's.

What man would given his son to be beaten so horribly and died such a painful death in order to save the lives of his and his son's enemies?
And what son would willingly die such a death to save his enemies?

So what is logic and common sense to man may not be the same as God's.

 

[Butch5]

Then please show me one and prove me wrong.

If you bothered to have even read the texts you wouldn't have made the statements you did.

I don't do people's homework for them.

Keep an uninformed opinion. Matters not to me if you haven't bothered to study it.

s

In other words they don't support your position and you can 't supply any that do?

People who don't bother to study only prove their lack of interest. Keep your uninformed opinion. Not my issue.

s

Believe me, there is no lack of study here. I've shown Scripture that explicitly states people have been lost.

 

[Butch5]

We still have the elephant in the room. The OSAS doctrine goes back no farther than the 1500's in church history.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So what is logic and common sense to man may not be the same as God's.

Excellent Deborah. If only everyone would realize that this puts an end to the thread.

 

[chessman]

I have a hard time believing, based on this and other scripture, that we are saved once and for all, no matter what even if we stop showing our faith to be of the kind that is able to save

JB,

If it’s not James (And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (James 1:4 ESV)

And if it’s not Peter (What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:22 ESV)

And if it’s not Jesus:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”) (John 10:28-30 ESV)
​

John 6:37 (ESV)All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out
​

And it’s darn sure is not Paul:

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
​

Ephesians 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,
​

Philippians 1:28 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God.
​

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
​

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
​

And it’s not Jude: (Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.)

Then where are these other Scriptures that you mention? I’m not saying there are not any, just very interested in which ones, exactly, that you meant. It would be a great new Thread to start. (_________) teaches OSAS = no

Oh, and you can add your Scripture from teh author of Hebrews to my list above.

"10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:10-12 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Common sense and logic

It seems to me that man's common sense and logic, is not the same as God's.

What man would given his son to be beaten so horribly and died such a painful death in order to save the lives of his and his son's enemies?
And what son would willingly die such a death to save his enemies?

So what is logic and common sense to man may not be the same as God's.

So James is wrong. A dead faith CAN save. Is that what you're saying?

You don't want to say that he's wrong (remember, I'm Protestant, too), but OSAS says he's wrong...you really don't have to have an active, living faith to be saved. Lip service is enough.

 

[smaller]

HONESTLY??? Really? This about sums up your "honesty".

Fault the reasoning anytime you please.

"and by all means please try to read the details. ALL of you non-OSAS adherents believe you are saved as you post against being saved.
None of you can say for any certainty that you are saved. It is as your statement above, more circular reasoning."

How is this an honest critique of what I believe?

Already cited. Sorry you don't seem to get it.

First we believe we ARE saved

No, you believe you 'might' be. BIG difference. Since your 'theoretical salvation' can be lost at anytime it always can be nothing more than a maybe attached to a wagon load of if's.

Then we don't know if we are saved at all, all we can do is say "maybe".

You 'might' be. IF.

I'm done with you, Smaller. You are not in the least interested in HONEST debate.

Who's to say the 'if' isn't already enacted?

I have told you REPEATEDLY that I believe that God NEVER "casts us out", but we can reject Him,

Indeed. Among many other 'if's.' Who is to say by taking the maybe road that in itself is 'maybe' your fate?

and you have REPEATEDLY accused me (as you did above) of believing God DOES cast us out.

Oh, that's precious. lol. Let's not look at your statements citing your position.

Yeah, well, maybe you're ok, maybe not.

Who's to say?

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh, and you can add your Scripture from teh author of Hebrews to my list above.

"10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:10-12 NASB)

How is it that the underlined parts nullify the un-underlined parts? The straightforward, compelling teaching about the danger of not having a working faith to the end is in the un-underlined parts, not in the underlined parts.

The author is plainly saying to continue to do the work of faith that God will not forget in order to make your hope sure. Your hope obviously becomes unsure if you stop doing those works of faith.

Why has virtually nothing been said about the five or so scriptures I posted about the condition of continued faith for salvation? I think it was ridiculed as being only five scriptures. When it comes to defending Biblical truths if you have five scriptures plainly spelling out the same truth you have a lot. Anybody who defends Biblical doctrine should know this. Most of the time it's a single passage or verse that establishes a truth.

 

[smaller]

Believe me, there is no lack of study here. I've shown Scripture that explicitly states people have been lost.

Uh, no I won't be 'believing you' without you providing one named New Testament believer who is said to have fallen away and will thence burn alive forever (or be eternally annihilated, pick yer pleasure.)

Your claim is non-existent.

s

 

[smaller]

Eliminate tense? Is this your answer?

No. In general, eliminate the search for tense beyond the various English translations of the Bible we have at our disposal. THAT is my answer.

So 'tense' in English is applicable? Really? You mean we can actually believe our eyes?

I do not desire and promote that. Scripture plainly teaches us salvation is present, future, and everything in between...provided you are, as the scriptures suggest, continuing in your faith in Christ.

So when we read 'ye have eternal life' even though it's present tense it really means 'not really, but MAYBE TENSE?'

s

 

[smaller]

It's not an insult to state that you don't have a clue in what I believe. You act like you have all of the answers - including reading my mind. I have not defined "salvation" to you, have I? But you have determined it a priori.

Yes you have. In the theological world of you and dadO it's 'maybe, maybe not' regardless of any particulars, from your own mouths.

As to "pope", that is actually an insult to popes everywhere in time, I apologize. You see, the difference is that no pope made themselves pope. Just your sect/cult/ilk/ whatever....

You know I am not going to be following some guy who thinks he 'might be saved.' As if that is some kind of definitive authority? yawn...

Cry me a river. All sects have their own sins. Well, I guess unless Christians are PERFECT, smaller will have NONE of that! ALL HISTORY IS NOW VOID, including the work of Christ, since the Apostles who gave us the Gospels are not worthy of relating it, since they sinned...!

I'd be happy to take your sects history as a definitive of what they really are. We'd get to the bottom of actions compared to claims on paper quickly.

We aren't talking about that. At least I am not. I am talking about the non-existence of anyone interpreting Scriptures like you.

Yeah, I'm the first guy to come up with OSAS. Yer pretty funny.

Despite your proclamations from on high.

Keep throwing it. Something might stick.

You ignore it

Facts galore huh?

because it is true and you can't handle that.

Because what's true? Care to attach a specific to that? Oh, you mean that I'm the first guy to come up with OSAS since the resurrection?

too too funny.

So you must divert attention away.

Yeah, we certainly wouldn't want to be examining the factual validity of your claim that I'm the first guy to come up with OSAS so "I" must divert.

whew. Sometimes I wonder.

The fact of the matter is that you contine to ignore the reality of 1500 years of Christian theological thinking. Forget about a few Christians who went overboard. I am talking about people who MEMORIZED the bible. Yet, none of them talk about "eternally guaranteed salvation".

heh heh. Claims of authority from somebody who memorized the Bible. That's novel. heh heh

Naturally, you know better...

Certainly a photographic memory MUST be right in the world of theology! Oh, yes, that does indeed settle ALL questions and proves beyond any doubt that you are right.

HA.

Since you have pretty much fallen into the well of 'failure to factually engage' I understand why you're doing what you do.

Maybe another day you can come back and we can pick up all the stuff you refused to even look at?

It'll wait.

s

 

[Deborah13]

Is that what you're saying?

No what I was addressing was common sense and logic. If you follow the thread back you will see what I was addressing to start with and I asked a question. Then I addressed replies and one dealt with common sense.

 

[Butch5]

Believe me, there is no lack of study here. I've shown Scripture that explicitly states people have been lost.

Uh, no I won't be 'believing you' without you providing one named New Testament believer who is said to have fallen away and will thence burn alive forever (or be eternally annihilated, pick yer pleasure.)

Your claim is non-existent.

s

Ahhh, the argument from silence. If it's not worded just the way I want it, it's not proof. That my friend is a logical fallacy.

 

[Butch5]

I have a hard time believing, based on this and other scripture, that we are saved once and for all, no matter what even if we stop showing our faith to be of the kind that is able to save

JB,

If it’s not James (And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (James 1:4 ESV)

And if it’s not Peter (What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.†(2 Peter 2:22 ESV)

And if it’s not Jesus:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.â€) (John 10:28-30 ESV)
​

John 6:37 (ESV)All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out
​

And it’s darn sure is not Paul:

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
​

Ephesians 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,
​

Philippians 1:28 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God.
​

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
​

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
​

And it’s not Jude: (Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.)

Then where are these other Scriptures that you mention? I’m not saying there are not any, just very interested in which ones, exactly, that you meant. It would be a great new Thread to start. (_________) teaches OSAS = no

Oh, and you can add your Scripture from teh author of Hebrews to my list above.

"10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:10-12 NASB)

Chessman, you're making inferences from passages out of context.