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Jehovah's witnesses and their delusions!

First off, I wasn't offended at all. I have been known to sway a bit on non-essentials, but I AM adament about certain things; this being one of them. Rules that claim to be "Biblical" yet don't fully line up with essential doctrines always raise a red flag with me.

I will ask that someone like Relic or Lovely take a stab at the "woman's submission to her man" topic, though I will say that it goes way past anything pertaining to sexual submission.

The 144,000 were/are/will be (depending on your historical/or futuristic view) sealed for their protection during God's Wrath against an unbelieving world. The most common scenario is that they are the protectors of their people (Israel remnant) during this Wrath and witnesses for Messiah to them. You see this 144,000 in both Rev 7 and Rev 14. If anyone insists they are the only ones in Heaven, one has to insist that 'they' explain who the multitude is in Revelation 7:9.

If one reads Rev 14 carfully, you will find these 144,000 on MT. Zion and NOT in Heaven :o but I digress... this is another topic altogether. 8-)
 
Vic C. said:
I will ask that someone like Relic or Lovely take a stab at the "woman's submission to her man" topic, though I will say that it goes way past anything pertaining to sexual submission.

Why I'm honored you would think of me to do so Vic,
Thank you. :)

Veritas posted some good info. :D

I'm sure lovely would be able to present a much more "lovely" presentation than I would . :D


But from my own perspective.... I think no one should ever submit to anyone, in any instance, who is out of line with the character of Christ Jesus Holy Spirit. And as far as submitting to an elder.... same goes there.... If they are out of line with the character of Christ Jesus Holy Spirit, then there is no need to submit that persons ill will. Christians are not called to let evil run all over them. (as some people might think :-? )
I believe we are called to rebuke anyone who is out of line with godly righteousness. And I also believe we are to be open to being rebuked when we are in error. And, we are called to flee from the influence of anyone who refuses to abide by "Godly righteousness". Note: That doesn't mean we are to abandon people and not reach out to help them when need be.

So with that being said, I also provided a resource, a good audio sermon given by Pastor Adrian Rogers on Five Ways to be a Successful Husband ..... 8-)
In the audio, Pastor Rogers who by the way, is now in heaven, shows what a woman's needs are, and describes some examples of a what a Godly man should be as a model for a woman to submit to.
Listen to it here:audio


Also here are some more archives of Pastor Rogers sermons:
click here

Also, in my opinion, any woman who is in the presence of a Godly man, be it her husband, or an elder, would not refuse to submit to "Godly righteousness" . Because, there is no sin, no ill will or evil in Godly righteousness.

.
 
Vic C. said:
The 144,000 were/are/will be (depending on your historical/or futuristic view) sealed for their protection during God's Wrath against an unbelieving world. The most common scenario is that they are the protectors of their people (Israel remnant) during this Wrath and witnesses for Messiah to them. You see this 144,000 in both Rev 7 and Rev 14. If anyone insists they are the only ones in Heaven, one has to insist that 'they' explain who the multitude is in Revelation 7:9.

If one reads Rev 14 carfully, you will find these 144,000 on MT. Zion and NOT in Heaven :o but I digress... this is another topic altogether. 8-)

And that is the main point I will bring up during our next attempt at conversion...ahem..."bible study". "Who are the multititudes". I was reading this part out loud to Zaks the other night. We were looking up the 144,00 and I said the same exact thing, who are they? Why are there multitudes of people, so many that one cannot count? It does not say here that only the 144,000 go to heaven! It doesn't even sound like they are in heaven!

There are a few things I'm going to ask our dear friends, that which is mentioned above and also, to show me where in the bible it says Jesus is Michael, the archangel. We are going to show them this list and then I'm going to ask them, "Why must JW's follow the watchtower publications rather than the bible in it's entirety? Does is say to read these forms of publications in the bible? No it does not!

Paul and Pat Blizards testimony touched my heart in a way it has never been touched before. How these "Elders" could tell them while thier daughter was dying, "I hope she catches hepatitus from the transfusion"...was sickening!

Like I said before, when I asked myself, "No, not our friends, could they be keeping a log of our "friendly get togethers?" and found out they indeed were, I felt so betrayed!

Anyhoo, I am confused over one more thing. Because in both the JW teachings and the real bible teachings, it does say there will be a new heaven and new earth. Who is this new earth reserved for? JW's belief's that only the 144,000 make it to heaven and the saved will inherit the earth. What is your interpretation?
 
My time is short and it IS an off-topic question, so I will quickly post this in the End Times Forum for you.

Anyhoo, I am confused over one more thing. Because in both the JW teachings and the real bible teachings, it does say there will be a new heaven and new earth. Who is this new earth reserved for? JW's belief's that only the 144,000 make it to heaven and the saved will inherit the earth. What is your interpretation?
 
Who is this new earth reserved for? JW's belief's that only the 144,000 make it to heaven and the saved will inherit the earth. What is your interpretation?

The 'new' 'us' inherits this! Here is what the Bible says:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 2 Corinthians 5:17

We are co-heirs with Christ!

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirsâ€â€heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. Romans 8:16-17

...and its the creation and our bodies that have to catch up to the 'new' us!

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. Romans 8:18-25


Cool huh?
 
Oh, just so you know, personally. I've always just clumped the new heavens and new earth together. I figure I'll understand that better when the time comes. Maybe someone else can help you on that one. Like Vic.

-both Vic and I did post responses on the previous page-
 
New heavens & new earth are in Isaiah 65-66

New Heavens and a New Earth

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.

The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach [a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.

21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.

23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.

24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.

Footnotes:

Isaiah 65:20 Or / the sinner who reaches


Isaiah 66

Judgment and Hope

1 This is what the LORD says:
"Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
Where is the house you will build for me?
Where will my resting place be?

2 Has not my hand made all these things,
and so they came into being?"
declares the LORD.
"This is the one I esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
and trembles at my word.

3 But whoever sacrifices a bull
is like one who kills a man,
and whoever offers a lamb,
like one who breaks a dog's neck;
whoever makes a grain offering
is like one who presents pig's blood,
and whoever burns memorial incense,
like one who worships an idol.
They have chosen their own ways,
and their souls delight in their abominations;

4 so I also will choose harsh treatment for them
and will bring upon them what they dread.
For when I called, no one answered,
when I spoke, no one listened.
They did evil in my sight
and chose what displeases me."

5 Hear the word of the LORD,
you who tremble at his word:
"Your brothers who hate you,
and exclude you because of my name, have said,
'Let the LORD be glorified,
that we may see your joy!'
Yet they will be put to shame.

6 Hear that uproar from the city,
hear that noise from the temple!
It is the sound of the LORD
repaying his enemies all they deserve.

7 "Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.

8 Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.

9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery?" says the LORD.
"Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery?" says your God.

10 "Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
all you who love her;
rejoice greatly with her,
all you who mourn over her.

11 For you will nurse and be satisfied
at her comforting breasts;
you will drink deeply
and delight in her overflowing abundance."

12 For this is what the LORD says:
"I will extend peace to her like a river,
and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream;
you will nurse and be carried on her arm
and dandled on her knees.

13 As a mother comforts her child,
so will I comfort you;
and you will be comforted over Jerusalem."

14 When you see this, your heart will rejoice
and you will flourish like grass;
the hand of the LORD will be made known to his servants,
but his fury will be shown to his foes.

15 See, the LORD is coming with fire,
and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For with fire and with his sword
the LORD will execute judgment upon all men,
and many will be those slain by the LORD.

17 "Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of [a] those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable thingsâ€â€they will meet their end together," declares the LORD.

18 "And I, because of their actions and their imaginations, am about to come and gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory.

19 "I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nationsâ€â€to Tarshish, to the Libyans [c] and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations.

20 And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the LORD -on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels," says the LORD. "They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the LORD in ceremonially clean vessels.

21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites," says the LORD.

22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.

23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD.

24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Footnotes:

Isaiah 66:17 Or gardens behind one of your temples, and
Isaiah 66:18 The meaning of the Hebrew for this clause is uncertain.
Isaiah 66:19 Some Septuagint manuscripts Put (Libyans Hebrew Pul


& Revelation 21-22

Revelation 21

The New Jerusalem

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."


5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsâ€â€their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."

10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.

13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.

14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls.

16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[a]in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick,[c] by man's measurement, which the angel was using.

18The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass.

19The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[d]

21The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.


24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.

25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.

26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Footnotes:

Revelation 21:16 That is, about 1,400 miles (about 2,200 kilometers)
Revelation 21:17 That is, about 200 feet (about 65 meters)
Revelation 21:17 Or high
Revelation 21:20 The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.


Anyone seeen this PBS TV film @ the JWs?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies ... eedom.html

Ian
 
Revelation 22

The River of Life

1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."


Jesus Is Coming

7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.

9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

Footnotes:

Revelation 22:16 The Greek is plural.
 
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