Jesus Christ THE FIRST and THE LAST

[Runningman]

That's very remarkable how you're perverting Jesus' decision to do Father's will into some 'different will' or 'misalignment of desires'.

How is taking Jesus saying "not my will but Yours be done" as him and God having different wills a perversion?

 

[Runningman]

The last quote doesn't refer to Jesus and the Father

It's a general rule that applies to everyone.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is the one through whom God created everything. This is clear.
John 1:3
3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

I don't think so. There's far too much that explicitly identifies as Jesus being a non-creator, subordinate, and subservient to his God and Father. I understand that verse differently.

 

[Runningman]

so if Jesus isnt God then a mere man died for our sins. and a finite man cannot bear infinite punishment.
also, Jesus would have sinned if He werent God.
Your "Jesus not God" ideology fails to deliver, logically and doctrinally speaking.

I wouldn't say a "mere man" but yes Jesus is a man according to scripture. A sinless man, the only one who ever lived that was sinless. That was why God made him both Lord and Christ.

Acts 2
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know. 23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross.

 

[Dmytro]

I looked up "person" on dictionary.com, and got this:

1. a human being, whether an adult or child: The table seats four persons.
2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

So the Father can't be a person.

Are you serious? This is what Apple dictionary says:

person | ˈpəːsn | noun (plural people or plural persons)
1 a human being regarded as an individual: the porter was the last person to see her prior to her disappearance | she is a person of astonishing energy.
• (in legal or formal contexts) an unspecified individual: each of the persons using unlawful violence is guilty of riot | the entrance fee is £2.00 per person.
• [with modifier] an individual characterized by a preference or liking for a specified thing: she's not a cat person.
• a character in a play or story: his previous roles in the person of a fallible cop.
• an individual's body: I would have publicity photographs on my person at all times.
• dated (especially in legal contexts) used euphemistically to refer to a man's genitals.
2 Grammar a category used in the classification of pronouns, possessive determiners, and verb forms, according to whether they indicate the speaker (first person), the addressee (second person), or a third party (third person).
3 Christian theology each of the three modes of being of God, namely the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost, who together constitute the Trinity.

So you also basing on this article might believe in a heresy and blasphemy of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit being "modes" of some theological concept?

But I as a Christian believe that:

• We were creates in the image of God and the Son and according to their likeness, so they aren't something so oddly different to us.
• Yahweh God revealed himself to us as a person.
• Jesus himself became human like we are so, since we are persons he also is a person but divine one and the Son of God, similar in nature to God himself.
• The Holy Spirit is a person. No reasons for considering him something else.
• So there are three divine persons:
  
  • Yahweh God, the Father
  • Jesus Christ, his Son and our Lord
  • the Spirit of Holiness

This is strictly according to the Bible.

 

[Dmytro]

I don't think so. There's far too much that explicitly identifies as Jesus being a non-creator, subordinate, and subservient to his God and Father. I understand that verse differently.

Yes, that's your choice and responsibility.

 

[Dmytro]

I and the Bible are both right.

Begin with Genesis 1:1 where in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Acts 17:24 says that the Lord of Heaven and Earth is the God who made everything. Since Jesus explicitly referred to the Lord of heaven and earth as the Father in Matthew 11:25, then YHWH isn't Jesus, but rather YHWH is the Father. This is why Jesus calls Him the only true God in John 17:3, along with Jeremiah in Jer. 10:10, Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10, and John in 1 John 5:20.

If that isn't enough, you may also observe that Jesus plainly isn't YHWH in Psalm 110:1 and Psalm 2:7. The lord at YHWHS right hand isn't YHWH; YHWH did not become YHWH's Father. Does that make sense?

This is exactly why YHWH created alone in the beginning according to Genesis 1 and Isaiah 44:24. Not really much wiggle room here to fit anyone else in. YHWH is God's personal name, the name of the Father, not a pluralistic person.

You're constantly denying what is written, because in the beginning God said: let US create a man in our image...
This is strictly what John says while starting his Gospel.

 

[Dmytro]

It's a general rule that applies to everyone.

Yes, but you're perverting it by saying God and Jesus are of different nature. They are of different status but are the same by nature.

 

[Dmytro]

How is taking Jesus saying "not my will but Yours be done" as him and God having different wills a perversion?

As separate persons they have separate wills. But Jesus will is perfectly aligned with Father's.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, that's your choice and responsibility.

I will shoulder none of that responsibility. My witness is not my own, just believing what the Bible says.

 

[Runningman]

You're constantly denying what is written, because in the beginning God said: let US create a man in our image...
This is strictly what John says while starting his Gospel.

Who is the "us" though? See, I don't think that's enough to start dropping names. Imagine if you were in court and you kept alluding to an "us" and the judge randomly picked two of your friends and said you three are the culprits. Isn't that what Trinitarians are doing?

 

[Runningman]

Yes, but you're perverting it by saying God and Jesus are of different nature. They are of different status but are the same by nature.

Can Jesus being tempted, but God cannot be tempted?

 

[Runningman]

As separate persons they have separate wills. But Jesus will is perfectly aligned with Father's.

Thank you for back pedaling on my alleged "perversion" of the Scripture. Did Jesus have a choice to obey God?

 

[JLB]

Jesus was indeed begotten but he didn't create all things.

Your opinion directly violates scripture.

Please repent, and retract your unbiblical statement.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

• He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

JLB

 

[Runningman]

Your opinion directly violates scripture.

Please repent, and retract your unbiblical statement.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

Christians don't pray to and worship an image. That fact alone proves Jesus isn't God.

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

The word "by" there is more accurately translated as "through" which would refer to the instrumentality of Jesus in creation of the church. That's the context.

• He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

1 Corinthians 8:6 says God is the Father and He is the one from whom all things came. Since the Father is the source, a begotten Son isn't literally before all things. The context of being before all things and all things consisting just refers to the church. There isn't any other context this fits in.

 

[JLB]

Christians don't pray to and worship an image.

That's correct.

Jesus Christ is LORD!

 

[JLB]

The word "by" there is more accurately translated as "through" which would refer to the instrumentality of Jesus in creation of the church. That's the context.

Explaining away the plain, clear truth of God's word is wicked.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth
• He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

All things consist in Christ, because He created all things as YHWH the LORD God.



JLB

 

[Runningman]

Explaining away the plain, clear truth of God's word is wicked.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth
• He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

All things consist in Christ, because He created all things as YHWH the LORD God.



JLB

I know what I am talking about here. Look at Colossians 1:16. Some versions translate this verse as "through him all things were created" because that world "by" is a prim. preposition denoting position and by impl. instrumentality. Please study.

Look at the verse. God isn't an image. Context refers to the church.

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

And yet we still have Matt 11:25 and Acts 17:24 plainly calling the Father the Lord of heaven and earth who created all things. That would be YHWH. Same can't be said of Jesus.

According to Acts 3:13 and Exodus 3:14,15, Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... therefore Jesus isn't the I AM, Isn't God, isn't YHWH, etc.

 

[Free]

Whether “by” or “through” is not at all relevant; the end meaning is the same. There is only one logical conclusion to John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-27, and Heb 1:2—the Son was already in existence alongside the Father when the beginning began, which means he is also God in nature.

 

[KV-44-v1]

That's correct.

Jesus Christ is LORD!

runningman is deliberately obtuse and he has too little intellectual honesty to realize that Jesus IS God.
his Bible is probably a Jehovah witness one!!