Read all of the Book of Revelation. If your claim to believing the Bible is to be believed, you will realize that Jesus IS God after reading all 20+ chapters of it.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Jesus Christ THE FIRST and THE LAST
- Thread starter SolaScriptura
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I said:
People who deny Jesus' Divinity will be denied before God at the Judgment.
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Runningman
Member
"By" suggests authorship or origination of being the Creator, which Jesus is not. "Through" is more appropriate because it refers to instrumentality. There is a big difference here.
Runningman
Member
How about below where the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb (Jesus) are not the same person.
Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Runningman
Member
Not according to scripture.
Runningman
Member
Jesus denied being God in Mark 10:18, John 8:40, and John 10:36. There are numerous examples of people demonstrating they don't believe Jesus is God; John, Paul, Peter, Matthew, Thomas, etc.
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'us' means God plus other person/persons partaking with him in creation of everything and sharing image and likeness with him. It's clear for me who it was. But you, basing on text, who do you believe was with God in the beginning and what his nature was? Support your assertions with proofs and and testimonies of apostles.
Jesus is God by nature but not the same person as God. And you've just broken second commandment by calling liars and servants of the Adversary with God's name. For you sake and eternal life better not use it in a negative context.
Runningman
Member
The us refers to those who were with God, the sons of God which are the angels. There is no mention of someone there called Jesus saying or doing anything. Yes, the angels are made in God's image.
Matt 22
30In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.
No, that reference you've provided doesn't refer to this case. Imagine you are in court and I accuse you of being a liar. So you are supposed to provide proofs supporting your claims. God said:
- 'Let US create...' He meant someone partaking in creation together with him.
- 'in OUR image according to OUR likeness' He meant some other person sharing his image and likeness, someone who without blasphemy can be called 'US' with him.
But you claim it wasn't Jesus but angels. So provide sufficient proofs and support with apostles' testimony.
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Runningman
Member
There is no other evidence about who the "us" would refer to in the Old Testament.
Prove the Word is Jesus. The Word means logos. Words aren't a person.
In Job 38, during creation, it says the "sons of God" were there. Sons of God are made in God's image. No mention of someone specifically singled out as Jesus being there.
Job 38
4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its foundations set,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
As I said, in the end the meaning is the same. That is, as far as any discussion about the deity of Christ is concerned, the Son was involved in creation of everything that has ever come into being, one way or the other. The only logical conclusion is that the Son has always existed and must, therefore, also be God in nature.
We see in Heb 1:2 that God created through the Son, but then eight verses later is saying that the Son is YHWH and “laid the foundations of the earth in the beginning.”
So, it makes no ultimate difference as both “by” and “through” point to the deity of the Son.
They all say things that support or prove the deity of Jesus, as did Jesus himself. They all certainly believed it to be the case. He also never denied being God, but he rightly kept himself distinct from the Father.
Runningman
Member
That would be an assertion.
The Creator in Hebrews 1:10 can easily be seen as the God who anointed the Son in verse 9. This can be supported by a wide variety of scripture proving the Father is exclusively YHWH and created alone.
Verse 20 says that all of those things in heaven and earth were reconciled to God by his blood on the cross which would be when he was a man, not in a supposed pre-existence. That's why despite it saying "all things" were created through him, I still see this about the context of the church, not literally all things in the most general sense of the word.
All isn't always literal. It sometimes can be, but it's more like an exaggeration sometimes. For example, Jesus told the disciples they would be taught "all things" in John 14:26. There's no record of them becoming omniscient. There is some measure, balance, and context required to understand Colossians 1:15-20.
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"Jesus is God by nature but not the same person as God." True.
"And you've just broken second commandment by calling liars and servants of the Adversary with God's name. For you sake and eternal life better not use it in a negative context."
I'm not. JW is regarded as a "cult" , and they have a "translation" called the New World translation.
Their name is obviously not true, they are "false witnesses".
See jw.org website, and youll see what I'm saying.
"And you've just broken second commandment by calling liars and servants of the Adversary with God's name. For you sake and eternal life better not use it in a negative context."
I'm not. JW is regarded as a "cult" , and they have a "translation" called the New World translation.
Their name is obviously not true, they are "false witnesses".
See jw.org website, and youll see what I'm saying.
No reason to limit evidences only to OT.
- In John 1:3 'him' is used for the Word, so the Word is a person, is separate from God and is God by nature.
- In John 1:5 the Word is called Light
- In John 1:7 John says John the Baptist came to testify about that Light.
- John the Baptist came to testify about Jesus.
You've provided no evidence refuting clear testimony of apostle John that the Word (Jesus) is the one God was addressing while creating all things.
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I know, so usually call them 'watchtower society' and not the way they call themself. Jehovah and Yahweh are different spellings of God's holy name which must be treated with respect and love. 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name' said Jesus.
Runningman
Member
It's the foundation of the NT.
But verse 9 says the True Light gives light to men entering the world. John 1:30 John calls Jesus a man.
But verse 10 says the True Light was in the world and that the world was made through him, but the bible says Jesus came down from heaven and that the Father created the world (Matt 11:25, Acts 17:24)
Yep and as I said John 1:30 says Jesus is a man.
I think you're looking at this differently than how John stated it.
John was that "voice in the wilderness" who's mission was to make straight the ways of the LORD. Isaiah 40:3 says that LORD is YHWH. YHWH was with Jesus who was speaking all He said to say, doing all He said to do, etc. This refers to Jesus as God's messenger and prophet.
Doesn't really fit the context of the chapter. That's why I believe John made a point to refer to the "Word" as god rather than saying "Jesus is God" because it's personification of something that isn't actually a person. I came to that conclusion by just reading more than John 1. The "Word" or Logos is demonstrably not a person in 99% of the NT.
How about 1 John 1:1-3 where the Logos isn't a person, but referred to as an it?
Runningman
Member
For the record, I am not a JW nor have had any JW influencers. They actually say Jesus was an angel in his pre-existent state, but I say Jesus is a glorified man who pre-existed figuratively in God's plan and foreknowledge.
However, there is actually a decent amount of Biblical support for the "Jesus is an angel" theory, though I am not sold on it. Probably one of the best proof-texts I've seen for this is in Revelation.
If you will read Revelation 22:8-12, it begins with an angel or messenger being introduced who denies being the God who is worthy of worship. The narrative continues until verse 12 when suddenly without any introduction Jesus is talking, saying he is the "Alpha and omega." It follows logically that this angel or messenger who denied being God is Jesus in the context. That's just my commentary on that. I'll have to look into it more and pray about it.
Ok, you're simply ignoring the meaning of the text. For now I don't see any arguments that make sense.