Jesus is not YHVH

[smaller]

All we know about Job is what God said about him.

GOD called job "my servant" and GOD said "there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil" and who still "holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." (Job 2:3)

That is GOD's personal and specific testimony about Job.

That is NOT the "whole scriptural account" of Job. My observation prior was that Job is identical to any other person, that being a sinner, and the state of every sinner is that our sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8. This makes the sight of Job quite different i.e. not just Job.

We can entirely view Job as a child of God, and as such, blameless, YET still observe the fact that Job is a sinner in the flesh, and said sin being of the devil.

So, in short, there remains TWO parties to view. Job and the devil.

[Too inflammatory. WIP]

I'd see Job the same way you do. But I would not stop this sight at just Job.

[Too inflammatory. WIP]

Most of my differences with any sight is when we try to view man as a singular agent. I do not believe scripture makes that case whatsoever.

Scripture does make the case that we are all sinners, and that sin is of the devil. This places TWO parties on the table to view. Not just 'a man, singular.'

Jesus was clear to show this reality in Mark 4:15, placing TWO parties to the matters of man. So do the Apostles.

His friends told him that his calamity was due to his sin and due to his lack of faith and that God never destroys a just man who keeps God's word. They placed the blame on Job as you are attempting to do. But God said they sinned by misrepresented Him. He told them to offer sacrifice for their sin and have Job pray for them so that He did not punish them for their false words about Him. (Job 42:7-8)

iakov the fool

Your accounting of Job is just as void as Mike's. You both only see Job. That is not how scriptures present these matters. Scriptures see man as "sinner" and sin being of the devil.

Scripture places TWO separate parties to view.

There was never just Job to observe to begin with.

 

[smaller]

And before it get's too late,

Merry Christmas everyone here.

God's Abundant blessings upon all in whom He abides! (citings available upon request. )

Off to start the tradition preps with my wife before the family starts to roll in.

 

[JLB]

There is no possibility that Jesus is the Father.

Is there anything I have ever written on this subject that would lead you to believe, that I think Jesus is the Father?

There is a creator, the Father, the God of Israel, the Lord God.

Jesus is the creator, as He created what the will of the Father conceived.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. Genesis 1:3


It was the Father's will that there be light.
The Son spoke light, as the Word.
The word Light, that the Son spoke, was manifested by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was raised from the dead the same way.

God raised Him from the dead -
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead)...
Galatians 1:1


Jesus raised Himself from the dead -
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. John 2:19-21


The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead -
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:18-19


JLB

 

[JLB]

the state of every sinner is that our sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

Brother, 1 John 3:8 say this -

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning... 1 John 3:8

This scripture does not say, sin is of the devil.

It says "He" who sins is of the devil.


James says it this way -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15

Read carefully: ...when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;

• Whose desire conceives and gives birth to sin?

The person's desire... each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires .

When you change God's word, from "He who sins is of the devil", to "sin is of the devil", then you make all sin the responsibility and fault of the devil, rather than the person taking responsibly for their own choice to gratify the desires of the flesh.

• Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Is there anything I have ever written on this subject that would lead you to believe, that I think Jesus is the Father?



Jesus is the creator, as He created what the will of the Father conceived.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. Genesis 1:3


It was the Father's will that there be light.
The Son spoke light, as the Word.
The word Light, that the Son spoke, was manifested by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was raised from the dead the same way.

God raised Him from the dead -
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead)...
Galatians 1:1


Jesus raised Himself from the dead -
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. John 2:19-21


The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead -
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:18-19


JLB

If the Son Spoke as the Word, then Jesus did not say what He heard of His Father but spoke of his own. I never said you believe Jesus is the Father, I was making a statement.

However, the Idea that Jesus is some Word part of a god system is a apostolic belief and rooted in Oneness. It also seems to be a WOF belief.

 

[smaller]

Brother, 1 John 3:8 say this -

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning... 1 John 3:8

This scripture does not say, sin is of the devil.

Uh, yeah, it does, in the KJV, and even in your citing, except plural "sinS" rather than sin.

It says "He" who sins is of the devil.

Yeah, I think we got that part down by now.

We might note that Jesus didn't have this particular problem.

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

That's why we "listen" to Him.

James says it this way -14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15Read carefully: ...when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;

• Whose desire conceives and gives birth to sin?

The person's desire... each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires .

That doesn't eliminate sin/lusts/temptations being of the tempter or sin NOT being of the devil. Each person's issues are theirs to deal with in particular. James says nothing different than any of the other writers. James also notes that devilish wisdom DOES come to believers as well. James 3: 14-16 So, yes, James does point the identical direction, and links specific findings to our adversary operating in the heart.

When you change God's word, from "He who sins is of the devil", to "sin is of the devil", then you make all sin the responsibility and fault of the devil, rather than the person taking responsibly for their own choice to gratify the desires of the flesh.

You're trying to make an issue out of an S, as in sinS being of the devil rather than sin being of the devil in the KJV.

Waste of time.

We know the fullness of the Godhead was in the BODY of Jesus. To me, that would have to be the fullness of God, the fullness of The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

There is no "is not" that I can see in that depiction. Someone feel free to correct.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Is there an IS NOT there? Not that I can see.

And further, we do we call a human nature that is without sin, when all other human natures have sin?

Some forms of Orthodoxy maintain that Jesus is still fully human, post resurrection. Can we call A Glorified Body "fully human?" These are the more interesting questions to me.

 

[JLB]

Uh, yeah, it does, in the KJV, and even in your citing, except plural "sinS" rather than sin.

This scripture does not say, sin is of the devil.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning... 1 John 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. 1 John 3:8 KJV

Neither the KJV or NKJV say "sin is of the devil", but rather it says, he that sins, or he that committeth sin, is of the devil.

The person who sins, is of the devil, not sin itself.


Once the scripture is read, it becomes clear that it is the person who commits sin, that is of the devil, and not the devil making the person sin.



Please read what James taught -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15

Read carefully: ...when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;

• Whose desire conceives and gives birth to sin?

The person's desire... each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires .



JLB

 

[JLB]

You're trying to make an issue out of an S, as in sinS being of the devil rather than sin being of the devil in the KJV.

The issue is not sin vs sins. It's who commits the sin.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.


The OP is Jesus is not YHWH.

Jesus Christ is YHWH.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14;5

 

[smaller]

The issue is not sin vs sins. It's who commits the sin.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

I think we've delineated the difference between sin in KJV and sinS in your preferred citing. They are still of the devil, regardless.

 

[Barth Jones]

Can you please post your "answer" again?

He is also called by the same name as his Father, and indeed is the "everlasting father," according to Isaiah.

I'd be interested in seeing that, and discussing this one further.

The earliest instance is in Mark 1:3:
At least the New Living Translation uses the Tetragramatton, "LORD" (=YHWH/Jehovah) here:
“Look, I am sending my messenger ahead of you,
and he will prepare your way.
He is a voice shouting in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the LORD's coming! [italics emphasis is added here]
Clear the road for him!’”

And Isaiah 9:6 has,
"For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." [italics emphasis is added here]

The New American Standard Bible also uses "LORD," here.

I think all the disagreement on this thread is due to the ambiguous nature of the use of "LORD," in most Bible translations in place of the Hebrew name, "YHWH," and the general lack of knowledge in particular about the very important distinction between "LORD," and "Lord," in the Bible. Everybody should read the introduction by the translators of your Bible. Here's the relevant excerpt from the New Living Translation:
The Rendering of Divine Names
All appearances of ’el, ’elohim, or ’eloah have been translated “God,” except where the context demands the translation “god(s).” We have rendered the tetragrammaton (YHWH) consistently as “the Lord,” utilizing a form with small capitals that is common among English translations. This will distinguish it from the name ’adonai, which we render “Lord.” When ’adonai and YHWH appear in conjunction, we have rendered it “Sovereign Lord.” This also distinguishes ’adonai YHWH from cases where YHWH appears with ’elohim, which is rendered “Lord God.” When YH (the short form of YHWH) and YHWH appear together, we have rendered it “Lord God.” The Hebrew word ’adon is rendered “lord,” or “master,” or sometimes “sir.”

In the New Testament, the Greek word Christos has been translated as “Messiah” when the context assumes a Jewish audience. When a Gentile audience can be assumed, Christos has been translated as “Christ.” The Greek word kurios is consistently translated “Lord,” except in four quotations of Psalm 110:1, where it is translated “Lord.”

For the full text: http://www.bible-researcher.com/nlt1preface.html

 

[JLB]

I think we've delineated the difference between sin in KJV and sinS in your preferred citing. They are still of the devil, regardless.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning... 1 John 3:8 NKJV

He that committeth sin is of the devil; 1 John 3:8 KJV

Neither of these versions agree with your interpretation.

It is the person who sins, and it is the person [who sins] that is of the devil.

The devil is not doing the sinning, it is the person who sins...

Once this is clarified by simply reading what the scripture actual says, then your "Satan in the flesh" doctrine falls apart.

Because the way you project 1 John 3:8, the devil must be present for the person to sin... when in fact James teaches it is "our desire" that is conceived and gives birth to sin.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15


JLB

 

[JLB]

I think all the disagreement on this thread is due to

This thread was started because the person who started it, and Jocor, do not believe that Jesus is the Lord God, YHWH.

Here are just a few of the scriptures that I gave, to which they have yet to respond, with scripture, but only opinion.

• looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
• For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3
• Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Where do you stand on this matter?


JLB

 

[Barth Jones]

This thread was started because the person who started it, and Jocor, do not believe that Jesus is the Lord God, YHWH.

Here are just a few of the scriptures that I gave, to which they have yet to respond, with scripture, but only opinion.

• looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
• For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3
• Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Where do you stand on this matter?


JLB

Jesus is absolutely God, as are God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. I believe YHWH is the name of the triune God. My natural family share a common name too, as do most families.

Nevertheless, my prior recommendation is vital if your intent is to reconcile, as opposed to remaining in discord.

 

[Barth Jones]

What did Paul say about disagreements over "words?"

 

[smaller]

While I consider that orthodox Trinitarian understandings are essential to legitimate Christianity, I might also consider that the construct and other "formal constructs" came because of floods of various forms of human intellectualism/worldly philosophies attached to the scriptures, which is still ongoing.

Strange things do happen when the Word of God arrives, that much is certain. Accepting/acknowledging Trinity doesn't stop that from happening.

2 Peter 2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

We are all quite Divinely assured of a wrestling match when coming to faith in Christ. It's unavoidable.

2 Peter 3:
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[NeutralZone]

Here are just a few of the scriptures that I gave, to which they have yet to respond, with scripture, but only opinion.

• looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
• For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3

JLB:

The context to Titus 2:13 (surrounding words, verses, or chapters) indicates Paul’s expression: “great God and Savior Jesus Christ” is with reference to two different persons, as follows:

1. "great God" = the Father, YHWH
2. "Savior" = the Son, Jesus Christ.

You ignored the context. Earlier in the same book of Titus, Paul clearly identified the person with the title “God” as the Father. Notice below.

Titus 1:4 -- King James Version
"To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."

I will address your other two verses (Isaiah 43:3 and Zechariah 14:5) in separate posts.


NeutralZone

 

[NeutralZone]

Here are just a few of the scriptures that I gave, to which they have yet to respond, with scripture, but only opinion.

• For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3
• Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

JLB:

Isaiah 43:3 is not talking about Jesus Christ the Son. That verse is specifically talking about YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh the Father.

Isaiah 43:3 -- American Standard Version
"For I am Jehovah thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in thy stead."


Isaiah 43:3 -- World English Bible
"For I am Yahweh your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I have given Egypt as your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place."

Below is the weblink to the various Bible translations where you will find the above renditions of Isaiah 43:3.
http://biblehub.com/isaiah/43-3.htm


NeutralZone

 

[NeutralZone]

Here are just a few of the scriptures that I gave, to which they have yet to respond, with scripture, but only opinion.

• Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

JLB:

Zechariah 14:5 is not talking about Jesus Christ the Son. You are reading from a Bible where the Divine name YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh was deliberately removed by the translators. Below is the same verse from two Bibles where the Divine name, JEHOVAH, was left in.

Zechariah 14:5 -- Young's Literal Translation
"And ye have fled to the valley of My mountains, For join doth the valley of the mountains to Azal, And ye have fled as ye fled before the shaking, In the days of Uzziah king of Judah, And come in hath Jehovah my God, All holy ones are with Thee."


Zechariah 14:5 -- Darby Bible
"And ye shall flee [by] the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: ye shall even flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And Jehovah my God shall come, [and] all the holy ones with thee."

Below is the weblink to the various Bible translations where you will find the above renditions of Zechariah 14:5.
http://biblehub.com/zechariah/14-5.htm



NeutralZone

 

[JLB]

JLB:

Isaiah 43:3 is not talking about Jesus Christ the Son. That verse is specifically talking about YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh the Father.

Isaiah 43:3 -- American Standard Version
"For I am Jehovah thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in thy stead."


Isaiah 43:3 -- World English Bible
"For I am Yahweh your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I have given Egypt as your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place."


NeutralZone

My study of the scriptures has led me to these verses.

• Jesus is YHWH, The Lord God.

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

• Jesus is YHWH, The Savior of Israel.

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3
...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

• Jesus is YHWH, The Lord God, who is called the First and Last.

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Isaiah 44:6



JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB:

Zechariah 14:5 is not talking about Jesus Christ the Son. You are reading from a Bible where the Divine name YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh was deliberately removed by the translators. Below is the same verse from two Bibles where the Divine name, JEHOVAH, was left in.

Zechariah 14:5 -- Young's Literal Translation
"And ye have fled to the valley of My mountains, For join doth the valley of the mountains to Azal, And ye have fled as ye fled before the shaking, In the days of Uzziah king of Judah, And come in hath Jehovah my God, All holy ones are with Thee."


Zechariah 14:5 -- Darby Bible
"And ye shall flee [by] the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: ye shall even flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And Jehovah my God shall come, [and] all the holy ones with thee."

Below is the weblink to the various Bible translations where you will find the above renditions of Zechariah 14:5.
http://biblehub.com/zechariah/14-5.htm



NeutralZone

I don't recognize Jehovah as God's Name, neither do the Jews.

Is Jehovah Hebrew?

Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God who will come with all His saints. Zechariah 14:5

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27


Are you attempting to teach us that it is God the Father, and not Jesus, who will come with the saints?


JLB