Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I've asked many questions that haven't been answered. Also, your responses are general, not specific to the specific points I make in my posts."

We are between a rock and a hard place.

We are to respond to issues and not make things personal.

I respond to individual and specific points being made by other posters. That is not "personal". That's just good technique.

I find it frustrating to make a number of points in a post, only to have another poster quote the whole post and then make general comments without being specific about any of my points.

The tares are removed at the harvest and not now.

How does this relate to the topic?

Gifted administrators see over this web site.

I tell myself (beware when you think you stand lest you fall).

eddif (redneck 2nd class)

???

 

[FreeGrace]

You're avoiding the question.

I thought my answer was quite thoughtful.

I asked, "What does wither mean? What does "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John `15:6 mean?

This is a metaphor. When a believer is out of fellowship, he/she "withers". Spiritual growth is STUNTED. iow, they is NO spiritual growth, but ATROPHY. Shrinkage. And the "fire" here is divine discipline for such a believer. Simple.

You waved it away saying Jesus was speaking of fellowship.

There was no "wave". I guess I should have said Jesus was speaking of what being out of fellowship looks like. Withering, God's discipline.

To abide carries the connotation of fellowship. Rev 3:20 is a clear example of Jesus' desiring fellowship with believers. Unfortunately, too many people think this is an evangelical appeal for salvation.

I said, "I don't see the word fellowship. Do you see the words 'wither' and 'thrown into the fire and burned'? What does wither mean?

See above for a much better explanation. While I don't necessarily expect agreement, if there isn't, then please do me the favor of explaining why my explanation fails to do justice to John 15:6. Thanks.

Again you waved it away saying, "One doesn't have to see the word "fellowship" to see the concept. The Bible uses a variety of words that are about fellowship.

No wave. Just a true statement.

But I asked about the words 'wither' and 'thrown into the fire and burned.' What do these words mean? Do they mean eternal life? Or do they mean eternal fire and burning?

See above.

Jesus said 'if you abide in me and my words abide in you. John 15:7 John 15:6 is his word/teaching. What happens if a man does not abide in him?

His spiritual growth withers, shrinks, etc. And he faces God's discipline and anger.

I don't know how to explain what you think.

I've already done it.

If we sin he will intercede for us.

How specifically? And what verses says so?

Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25

Right. Eternal security.

 

[Nathan]

It is not "the" Gospel, Christ crucified and resurrected for our righteousness and salvation; however, it is not by any necessity excluded from "the Gospel" message; as Christ Himself so intimately connected it with believing into Him, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

What does this "free-grace theology" teach? Look it up(do a google search). It says it's "ok" to leave Christ after you have believed, and still have salvation. I have asked enough questions about this theology to now know that it is a false gospel because it goes against what Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.

Any "good news" that discounts what Paul said above is a false gospel. If someone states we do not have to stand in the Gospel and it is how we are being saved(some only preach past tense salvation) then they are preaching another gospel.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"The Good News is that recipients of eternal life will never perish. John 10:28
More Good News: when one FIRST believes is WHEN they first POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24

So, from the MOMENT of first belief, Jesus promises they will never perish. Eternal security.

No conditions for the recipients of eternal life. They will never perish, period. Says Jesus."

No, it is THE Gospel.

If John 5:24 DOESN'T say what I've explained, then just provide clear explanation of WHY my explanation is wrong.

Just throwing out a negative comment is not helpful.


I have no idea what this refers to.


Then just explain what I said about John 5:24 isn't true. Please.


What this lacks is everything that Paul preached. This represents what was "of first importance". That indicates there were other points of importance, but Paul only listed what was "of FIRST importance".


I'm curious as to why this passage was shared, since it doesn't give us the gospel message.


Until there is an explanation of how and why my explanation of John 5:24 is in error, your claim is unsubstantiated.

You are not presenting the Gospel. Part of the Gospel is not "The Gospel". Paul has very specific warnings for doing this.

Galatians 1
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

 

[Gregg T]

Nathan said:
Actually that is 'another gospel'.

FreeGrace said:
No, it is THE Gospel.

If you are referring to Jn 5:24 and Jn 10:28 as "the Gospel", then that is not true.

The Gospel must include the Crucifixion, Resurrection, and the imperitives to repent and to believe.

 

[Gregg T]

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

What does this "free-grace theology" teach? Look it up(do a google search). It says it's "ok" to leave Christ after you have believed, and still have salvation. I have asked enough questions about this theology to now know that it is a false gospel because it goes against what Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.

Any "good news" that discounts what Paul said above is a false gospel. If someone states we do not have to stand in the Gospel and it is how we are being saved(some only preach past tense salvation) then they are preaching another gospel.

I in no way condone or think its "ok" to leave or to want to leave Christ, if that were even possible for someone in Him.

 

[Papa Zoom]

If you are saved, you are sealed. If sealed, you will be kept. If kept, you have eternal life. Done once, but for always.

But round and round we go. "No you can't, yes you can." Endlessly.

IF you can lose your salvation, then the cross is only necessary, but NOT sufficient. It's Jesus PLUS me = eternal life.

That is the danger of the argument that you can lose your salvation. Then the Bible really means that we are saved by grace and NOT of works except that we need works to keep our salvation which is contradictory.

No. It's simple. We can do nothing to be saved. Nothing to gain it and once gained (through faith alone in Christ alone) nothing can we do to lose it.

Perseverance is proof of a genuinely converted heart - a truly Born Again from Above individual. You WILL keep on keeping on. Nothing can separate you if you from God if your faith is genuine because you are truly in Christ. Because that pesky Holy Spirit is IN you and keeping you and working on you. Daily. You can't walk away from faith if you are truly saved. It's impossible. If you leave, you leave but never were in the first place. That's the biblical teaching.

Works are evidence of a truly saved person!

 

[WIP]

How does OSAS explain Revelation 21:1-8? I don't see any exceptions presented. In other words I don't see anything at the end of this like, "except those who have believed." In fact, it includes those who are unbelieving and does not single them apart from those who believed for a while and then stopped believing.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” NKJV

 

[Gregg T]

What does this "free-grace theology" teach? Look it up(do a google search). It says it's "ok" to leave Christ after you have believed, and still have salvation. I have asked enough questions about this theology to now know that it is a false gospel because it goes against wha

I read on wikipedia [an unreliable source] "the Antinomians argued that one's spiritual condition had no bearing upon one's outward behavior." and attributed that movement to a free-grace theology.

But wether or not FreeGace adheres to the doctrine of 'the free-grace movement,' or to that specific Antinomian doctrine remains to be seen. Personally, I think not, but maybe he will state his position.

 

[Papa Zoom]

How does OSAS explain Revelation 21:1-8? I don't see any exceptions presented. In other words I don't see anything at the end of this like, "except those who have believed." In fact, it includes those who are unbelieving and does not single them apart from those who believed for a while and then stopped believing.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” NKJV

All verses that deal with belief and salvation have to reconcile. We don't overcome in our own power. We overcome by the power of God. That is why, if truly a believer in Jesus, you will overcome by the Power of God and nothing you do will add or subtract from that.

I think OSAS, as the way it's defined here, is heretical. That's because it adds ME into the equation of salvation. Not the case. It's Jesus plus nothing = everything. I can do nothing. And that's the biblical case we see over and over. Yes, he who overcomes will inherit all thing. Who are those overcomers? True believers in Jesus. Because nothing, absolutely nothing can separate from God those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:38-39New International Version (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Taken as a whole, the witness of the NT clearly shows that those sealed by the HS in Christ will be kept until the day of redemption. It's a promise. And it's not "if" you hold firm but "since" you will hold firm because the HS, doing a marvelous work in the heart of every Believer, will accomplish the purpose of God. That's grace!

 

[MCoop]

If you are saved, you are sealed. If sealed, you will be kept. If kept, you have eternal life. Done once, but for always.

But round and round we go. "No you can't, yes you can." Endlessly.

IF you can lose your salvation, then the cross is only necessary, but NOT sufficient. It's Jesus PLUS me = eternal life.

That is the danger of the argument that you can lose your salvation. Then the Bible really means that we are saved by grace and NOT of works except that we need works to keep our salvation which is contradictory.

No. It's simple. We can do nothing to be saved. Nothing to gain it and once gained (through faith alone in Christ alone) nothing can we do to lose it.

Perseverance is proof of a genuinely converted heart - a truly Born Again from Above individual. You WILL keep on keeping on. Nothing can separate you if you from God if your faith is genuine because you are truly in Christ. Because that pesky Holy Spirit is IN you and keeping you and working on you. Daily. You can't walk away from faith if you are truly saved. It's impossible. If you leave, you leave but never were in the first place. That's the biblical teaching.

Works are evidence of a truly saved person!

Correct! The elect are kept by the power of God through or by the means of faith. Proponents who teach and believe one can lose their salvation, believes also ones WORKS of merit gains and maintains their salvation.. which gives evidence of not believing the gospel of Christ. Salvation is all of grace! Conditioned solely in Christ Jesus and His merits alone! Gods people will endure to the end. Why? Because it is God who keeps them by His power! This is salvation. The just live by faith! The elects assurance is in Christ and His merits by Gods mercy. Those who profess Christ and fall away were never saved to begin with. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1Peter 1:3-5.

 

[FreeGrace]

What does this "free-grace theology" teach? Look it up(do a google search). It says it's "ok" to leave Christ after you have believed, and still have salvation.

Please prove this ridiculous claim by citing the link so we can see for ourselves. If the site doesn't actually say "it's ok to leave Christ after you have believed, and still have salvation", I'll be expecting a retraction and an apology.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are not presenting the Gospel.

I never said Johnb 10:28 was "the gospel". I said it was Good News. Which it IS.

Part of the Gospel is not "The Gospel". Paul has very specific warnings for doing this.

Galatians 1
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Pointing out part of the gospel isn't "another gospel". That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Gregg T]

What does this "free-grace theology" teach? Look it up(do a google search). It says it's "ok" to leave Christ after you have believed, and still have salvation. I have asked enough questions about this theology to now know that it is a false gospel because it goes again

Regarding someone yet to be born from above; if that person is thinking that he may believe in Christ for eternal life and afterwards do as he pleases, then that person likely:
- does not understand his need for Christ's righteousness to be accounted to him,
- does not understand the Gospel,
- does not have the type of faith that leads to salvation, and
- may not have repented from disobedience.

 

[FreeGrace]

I in no way condone or think its "ok" to leave or to want to leave Christ, if that were even possible for someone in Him.

No one from free grace theology does either. The other poster's comments are way out of line. I've challenged him to present an actual web link that supports what he claimed.

Free grace theology properly understands God's discipline for rebellious children.

Unlike the notions presented here; that a child of God either totally behave all the time or DIE eternally. There's no discipline in that.

 

[FreeGrace]

How does OSAS explain Revelation 21:1-8? I don't see any exceptions presented. In other words I don't see anything at the end of this like, "except those who have believed." In fact, it includes those who are unbelieving and does not single them apart from those who believed for a while and then stopped believing.

First, one must address the clear promise of Jesus about recipients of eternal life never perishing. That's eternal security clearly. Until this verse is acknowledged, we cannot properly understand much less clear verses, since NO verses out and out say anything about losing salvation.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” NKJV

In v.7 Jesus motivates believers to stay faithful to Him till the end by the phrase "who overcomes shall inherit all things".

Since Jesus promises that recipients of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, v.8 cannot be referring to former believers. That would create an internal conflict and contradiction in the Bible, which I reject as possible. I won't speak for others. But I don't tolerate any idea that any one verse contradicts any other verse.

v.8 is simply a description of those who have rejected Him. iow, never believed in Him.

Consider this: if this list were reasons for being cast into the lake of fire, then it would mean that Christ didn't die for these specific sins.

Is that a tenable view? I think not.

"All liars" covers just about every person on earth at some point or other.

If John 10:28 (and other verses) are not considered within the whole counsel of God, certain verses and passages might seem to suggest that one can lose salvation. But if any verse means that, then the Bible is internally contradicted, and we are all wasting our time reading a contradictory book.

 

[FreeGrace]

I read on wikipedia [an unreliable source] "the Antinomians argued that one's spiritual condition had no bearing upon one's outward behavior." and attributed that movement to a free-grace theology.

But wether or not FreeGace adheres to the doctrine of 'the free-grace movement,' or to that specific Antinomian doctrine remains to be seen. Personally, I think not, but maybe he will state his position.

Free grace theology is NOT "antinomian". But the charge is regularly leveled at it. In fact, as Paul wrote, we are under the Law of Christ (Gal 6:2).

So "antinomianism" is unbiblical and does NOT represent free grace theology.

I've been stating my position regularly. Once a person receives eternal life and is sealed with the Holy Spirit, they are eternally saved.


And there is NOTHING that can separate them from the love of Christ or heaven itself.

It's called eternal security.

However, any believer who rebels against the Lord, or ceases to believe are promised God's wrath and discipline, which Heb 12:11 says is painful, not pleasant. And Paul provides the progression of God's discipline in 1 Cor 11:30; weakness, sickness, and physical death.

So it's NOT ok to turn from the Lord after being saved. It's NEVER ok. It's WRONG and the one who does so will be greatly disciplined for it. Simple translation: SUFFER.

But eternal security puts salvation totally on Him. And nothing on us.

We were saved by grace, and kept securely by that same grace.

If there was anything we can do to lose our salvation, then it wasn't salvation in the first place. God saves by grace, and He keeps us by the same grace. If that upsets some, so be it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Regarding someone yet to be born from above; if that person is thinking that he may believe in Christ for eternal life and afterwards do as he pleases, then that person likely:
- does not understand his need for Christ's righteousness to be accounted to him,
- does not understand the Gospel,
- does not have the type of faith that leads to salvation, and
- may not have repented from disobedience.

And certainly has not been properly trained by the Bible's teaching on God's wrath and discipline!

 

[Gregg T]

And certainly has not been properly trained by the Bible's teaching on God's wrath and discipline!

How does free-grace theology differ from, say for instance . . . from a traditional non-Calvinist Baptist theology?

I resist the use of labels, although they are helpful in communicating general beliefs.

 

[Nathan]

False doctrine does upset me. It upset Christ and the Apostles also. Those who teach false things will always be shown for what they are.

Eternal security sounds great when it's based on something someone does. It can be regulated that way. A person can be absolute in their faith of it because they know what they have done.

Why so much of the teachings in the NT, and examples from the OT, are disregarded is beyond me. I can only understand it is the deception that comes on those who did not love the truth.

Those who leave the faith will not be saved. To say someone can be saved apart from faith is rediculous and blasphemous. It is the Spirit of God who brings us the word of God, which is what are faith in God is based on.

To teach a person can leave the faith, and still be saved, is saying someone can blaspheme the Spirit and still be saved. That's impossible.

1 Timothy 4:1 (ESV)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

I can only proclaim the truth that in Christ alone there is security, and to depart from Him means you do not have security - unless you security rests in a persons false teaching or your belief that something you've done will save you.