Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[MarkT]

I asked this:
"We are ALREADY "in Him" by the sealing with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And this indwelling is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

How is that NOT eternal security?"

I don't see an answer here.

That's because we were not talking about Eph. 1:13,14

I was responding to your statement regarding grace and participation and why you think abiding in him means fellowship. I agree those who abide in him abide in the light, and they have fellowship with him. But Jesus said, "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6

So your question regarding fellowship is irrelevant.

The definition of fellowship is companionship, a friendly association. So I said act like a friend. Walk in the light as he is in the light. Keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3-5
1 John 2:3
And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:5
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:

From 1 John 1 where the word "fellowship" occurs 4 times in 3 verses, we know that confession of sin is the way to maintain or regain fellowship with the Lord.

So your argument is we have to confess our sins? I agree. But isn't that participating in our salvation?

Can a believer with unconfessed sin have fellowship with the Lord. Certainly not.

Can an unbeliever with unconfessed sin have fellowship with the Lord?

2 Cor 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"The Bible says the believer is cleansed/purified by confession of that sin. 1 Jn 1:9"

Confession of sin is continuous? Which text says that?

Confession of sin is what we are supposed to do for cleansing of our sins. When we sin. I suppose if one sins "continuously" then, yes, one should confess continually.

But that would indicate a deeper problem, right?

Does our confession cleanse us? Or does God cleanse us when we confess? Important difference.

I didn't say confession is continuous. I said his word makes clean. The washing is continuous.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your posts are responded to specifically. Like anything else I have seen you do, if it doesn't break things down the way you want you dismiss it. That's fine if you like to do that.

I've asked many questions that haven't been answered. Also, your responses are general, not specific to the specific points I make in my posts.

I'll keep presenting the Gospel.

The Good News is that recipients of eternal life will never perish. John 10:28
More Good News: when one FIRST believes is WHEN they first POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24

So, from the MOMENT of first belief, Jesus promises they will never perish. Eternal security.

No conditions for the recipients of eternal life. They will never perish, period. Says Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

God cleanses those in Christ - those not in Him have no propitiation for sins.

Of course not. But that doesn't apply to anyone who HAS believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's because we were not talking about Eph. 1:13,14

In any discussion about OSAS vs OSNAS, those verses are ALWAYS pertinent.

I was responding to your statement regarding grace and participation and why you think abiding in him means fellowship. I agree those who abide in him abide in the light, and they have fellowship with him. But Jesus said, "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6

I've already explained from 1 John 1 what fellowship is. When a believer grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit, they are NOT abiding in Him. They are IN HIM, but NOT abiding in Him. But it seems many don't appreciate this difference.

So your question regarding fellowship is irrelevant.

It's totally relevant, but those who don't have answers won't answer the question. Naturally.

The definition of fellowship is companionship, a friendly association. So I said act like a friend. Walk in the light as he is in the light. Keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3-5

You nailed it. "a friendly association". How can one abide in him when they, by sin, are grieving or quenching the Spirit? Please explain.

1 John 2:3
And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

How can one keep His commandments, if they don't know Him and His commandments? This is self evident.

1 John 2:5
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:

This is about abiding in Him. We certainly don't place ourselves IN HIM by obedience. We're placed IN HIM by the sealing with the Holy Spirit, as Paul taught in Eph 1:13,14. See? Those verses keep being relevant.

And this sealing is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption. How is that not eternal security from the point of sealing?

So your argument is we have to confess our sins? I agree. But isn't that participating in our salvation?

Absolutely not. The Greek word for 'confess' means to acknowledge that our actions are sinful, specifically. The word is literally "to say the same thing", or that we agree with what God says about our actions that are sinful.

Why should anyone think confession of sin helps save us, as your question insinuates?

1 John 1:9 is in a chapter where 'fellowship' is mentioned 4 times in 3 verses. So confession is contextually linked to fellowship.

It's how we receive cleansing from our sins. Jesus made that point in John 13 when He was washing the feet of the disciples (v.5). When He got to Peter, who was always slow on the uptake, didn't want Jesus to "demean" Himself by washing His feet, so he told Him, "you'll never wash my feet" (v.6,8). Whereupon Jesus said, "If I don't wash your feet, you can have no part of Me." (v.8) He wasn't speaking about salvation, but fellowship. Jesus had already noted that all of them were saved (clean) except Judas (v.10,11).

Here's the point. In Jesus' time, feet washing wasn't symbolic as it is practiced today. In that day, people used the same trails and roads as the animals. So the roads/trails were filled with animal excrement. Get the picture? So it was NECESSARY to wash feet before going into a home or business, etc.

Can you imagine carrying dog doo on your shoes when you go to visit a good friend? How much fellowship will there be as your friend must hold their nose while you're there? Not too much. The stench has a strong affect on the visit (fellowship) and not in a positive way.

In the same way, our sins are an offensive stench to God, and we need to 'clean our feet' whenEVER we sin. To get the "dog doo" off our feet so fellowship with God will not be hampered.

iow, we CANNOT have fellowship with God WHEN we have unconfessed sin in our lives. So we need to get our feet washed. That's what confession is for.

No one gets saved by confessing their sins. Because no verse says so.

Can an unbeliever with unconfessed sin have fellowship with the Lord?

What? No unbeliever can have fellowship with the Lord. They MUST FIRST have relationship with Him through faith in Him.

And a believer who has ceased to believe certainly can't have fellowship with the Lord. And lose out on blessings in time and loss of reward in eternity. And face God's hand of discipline during their life. Which will be painful. To get their attention. For those rebellious children of God who continue to not pay attention, God will simply bring home through physical death, which won't necessarily be quick and painless.

Paul noted that the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5 had been "turned over to Satan" for the destruction of the flesh (v.5). Sound like a picnic?

See also 1 Tim 1:20 regarding Satan's role in how God may discipline a rebellious child of His. Ain't purty.

2 Cor 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

yeppers.

 

[FreeGrace]

I didn't say confession is continuous. I said his word makes clean. The washing is continuous.

Still not following. Once cleansed, no further cleansing is needed until one gets dirty again.

 

[Nathan]

I've asked many questions that haven't been answered.


The Good News is that recipients of eternal life will never perish. John 10:28
More Good News: when one FIRST believes is WHEN they first POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24

So, from the MOMENT of first belief, Jesus promises they will never perish. Eternal security.

No conditions for the recipients of eternal life. They will never perish, period. Says Jesus.

Actually that is 'another gospel'. That is not the Gospel that Jesus and the Apostles brought. What your saying is 'good news' may sound like 'good news', but it's not the Gospel of our faith.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-
not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

If you are trying to pass your teaching off as the Gospel then Paul had very strong words against you.

 

[Nathan]

Of course not. But that doesn't apply to anyone who HAS believed.

It absolutely does. You still have a body of sin and succumb to temptations. You need a mediator between yourself and God. This is Christ and He does this for those in Him, not those who did something.

Hebrews 7
22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

This is apart of the true Gospel, and is what Paul talked about in Galatians 1.

 

[Gregg T]

FreeGrace said: ↑
'The Good News is that recipients of eternal life will never perish. John 10:28
More Good News: when one FIRST believes is WHEN they first POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24

So, from the MOMENT of first belief, Jesus promises they will never perish. Eternal security.

No conditions for the recipients of eternal life. They will never perish, period. Says Jesus.'

Actually that is 'another gospel'. That is not the Gospel that Jesus and the Apostles brought. What your saying is 'good news' may sound like 'good news', but it's not the Gospel of our faith.

Could you be more specific. What about FreeGrace's statement is a different gospel?

 

[Nathan]

FreeGrace said: ↑
'The Good News is that recipients of eternal life will never perish. John 10:28
More Good News: when one FIRST believes is WHEN they first POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24

So, from the MOMENT of first belief, Jesus promises they will never perish. Eternal security.

No conditions for the recipients of eternal life. They will never perish, period. Says Jesus.'



Could you be more specific. What about FreeGrace's statement is a different gospel?

In order to understand you have to back up in the conversation.

I said I would keep presenting the Gospel, he quoted it and replied with "The Good News is that receipients of eternal life will never perish".

So not only was he responding directly to what I said, he also capitalized Good News, so he was directly equating what he said as a gospel. Gospel means good news. I know that, you know that, and he knows that.

 

[Gregg T]

In order to understand you have to back up in the conversation.

I said I would keep presenting the Gospel, he quoted it and replied with "The Good News is that receipients of eternal life will never perish".

So not only was he responding directly to what I said, he also capitalized Good News, so he was directly equating what he said as a gospel. Gospel means good news. I know that, you know that, and he knows that.

Here is the Good News, and perhaps the most widely used verse when sharing the Gospel:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I had read your posts and his posts leading up to my question. So again, what about FreeGrace's statement is a different gospel?

Do you consider Jn 3:16 a different gospel?

 

[eddif]

I've asked many questions that haven't been answered. Also, your responses are general, not specific to the specific points I make in my posts.

We are between a rock and a hard place.

We are to respond to issues and not make things personal. The tares are removed at the harvest and not now.

Gifted administrators see over this web site.

I tell myself (beware when you think you stand lest you fall).

eddif (redneck 2nd class)

 

[Nathan]

Here is the Good News, and perhaps the most widely verse when sharing the Gospel:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I had read your posts and his posts leading up to my question. So again, what about FreeGrace's statement is a different gospel?

Do you consider Jn 3:16 a different gospel?

It is a part of the Gospel, but it is not "The Gospel". To say it is "The Good News" is to preach a different gospel(not that there is another true one that is able to save).

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

Anyone who preaches another Gospel than the one above is spoken of in very harsh terms. Some want the second half of the Gospel and disregard the first - that is another gospel and one who teaches it is accursed.

 

[Nathan]

We are between a rock and a hard place.

We are to respond to issues and not make things personal. The tares are removed at the harvest and not now.

Gifted administrators see over this web site.

I tell myself (beware when you think you stand lest you fall).

eddif (redneck 2nd class)

Your correct. We should not try to pull up the tares, but we should watch for wolves who come in to devour the little lambs. We are not hired hands who flee when the wolves come in.

 

[Gregg T]

It is a part of the Gospel, but it is not "The Gospel". To say it is "The Good News" is to preach a different gospel(not that there is another true one that is able to save).

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

Anyone who preaches another Gospel than the one above is spoken of in very harsh terms. Some want the second half of the Gospel and disregard the first - that is another gospel and one who teaches it is accursed.

Twice now you have failed to answer the same question. You are sidestepping the question.

You made a bold claim, that FreeGrace wrote about 'another gospel'. Identify specifically what you referred to, or withdraw your claim.

If you sidestep again, or divert the conversation again, then I will take that as a self-denial of your statement and a withdrawal of your claim against him.

 

[Nathan]

Twice now you have failed to answer the same question. You are sidestepping the question.

You made a bold claim, that FreeGrace wrote about 'another gospel'. Identify specifically what you referred to, or withdraw your claim.

If you sidestep again, or divert the conversation again, then I will take that as a self-denial of your statement and a withdrawal of your claim against him.

I already did specifically point out the error. If you wish to be like him and accuse me of something, because you don't like my answer, so be it.

As I already said, he stated that "The Good News" was that reciepients of eternal life will never perish. While it is good news, it is not "The Good News". To teach it as "the" Gospel is false. It is teaching one part of the messsge given to us, and leaving out the other parts.

It is the same as teaching the message given to us and adding to it. It's not right and is deceiving. Jesus and the Apostles warned us of this. We should not take their warnings lightly.

Matthew 24
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

[Gregg T]

I already did specifically point out the error. If you wish to be like him and accuse me of something, because you don't like my answer, so be it.

As I already said, he stated that "The Good News" was that reciepients of eternal life will never perish. While it is good news, it is not "The Good News". To teach it as "the" Gospel is false. It is teaching one part of the messsge given to us, and leaving out the other parts.

It is the same as teaching the message given to us and adding to it. It's not right and is deceiving. Jesus and the Apostles warned us of this. We should not take their warnings lightly.

Matthew 24
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

It is not "the" Gospel, Christ crucified and resurrected for our righteousness and salvation; however, it is not by any necessity excluded from "the Gospel" message; as Christ Himself so intimately connected it with believing into Him, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[MarkT]

In any discussion about OSAS vs OSNAS, those verses are ALWAYS pertinent.


I've already explained from 1 John 1 what fellowship is. When a believer grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit, they are NOT abiding in Him. They are IN HIM, but NOT abiding in Him. But it seems many don't appreciate this difference.


It's totally relevant, but those who don't have answers won't answer the question. Naturally.

You're avoiding the question.

I asked, "What does wither mean? What does "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John `15:6 mean?

You waved it away saying Jesus was speaking of fellowship.

I said, "I don't see the word fellowship. Do you see the words 'wither' and 'thrown into the fire and burned'? What does wither mean?

Again you waved it away saying, "One doesn't have to see the word "fellowship" to see the concept. The Bible uses a variety of words that are about fellowship.

But I asked about the words 'wither' and 'thrown into the fire and burned.' What do these words mean? Do they mean eternal life? Or do they mean eternal fire and burning?

Jesus said 'if you abide in me and my words abide in you. John 15:7 John 15:6 is his word/teaching. What happens if a man does not abide in him?

You nailed it. "a friendly association". How can one abide in him when they, by sin, are grieving or quenching the Spirit? Please explain.

I don't know how to explain what you think.

If we sin he will intercede for us.

Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The Good News is that recipients of eternal life will never perish. John 10:28
More Good News: when one FIRST believes is WHEN they first POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24

So, from the MOMENT of first belief, Jesus promises they will never perish. Eternal security.

No conditions for the recipients of eternal life. They will never perish, period. Says Jesus."

Actually that is 'another gospel'.

No, it is THE Gospel.

If John 5:24 DOESN'T say what I've explained, then just provide clear explanation of WHY my explanation is wrong.

Just throwing out a negative comment is not helpful.

That is not the Gospel that Jesus and the Apostles brought.

I have no idea what this refers to.

What your saying is 'good news' may sound like 'good news', but it's not the Gospel of our faith.

Then just explain what I said about John 5:24 isn't true. Please.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

What this lacks is everything that Paul preached. This represents what was "of first importance". That indicates there were other points of importance, but Paul only listed what was "of FIRST importance".

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-
not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

I'm curious as to why this passage was shared, since it doesn't give us the gospel message.

If you are trying to pass your teaching off as the Gospel then Paul had very strong words against you.

Until there is an explanation of how and why my explanation of John 5:24 is in error, your claim is unsubstantiated.

 

[FreeGrace]

It absolutely does. You still have a body of sin and succumb to temptations. You need a mediator between yourself and God.

No. The Believer doesn't "need" a mediator. The believer HAS a Mediator. Do you see the difference?

This is Christ and He does this for those in Him, not those who did something.

Every believer is IN HIM. Permanently sealed. You've still not proven that the sealing with the Spirit can be unsealed or undone. So it remains an unsubstantiated opinion.

Hebrews 7
22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Again, nothing here about undoing or unsealing the Holy Spirit.