Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[Nathan]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Grace_theology

"Free Grace theology is a Christiansoteriological view teaching that everyone receives eternal life the moment that they believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviorand Lord. "Lord" refers to the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and therefore able to be their "Savior".[1] The view distinguishes between A) the "call to believe" in Christ as Savior and to receive the gift of eternal life, versus B) the "call to follow" Christ and become obedientdisciples.[1]"

The false teaching above bases ones salvation based on whether they believe or not. It also splits the Gospel of Christ in two, saying salvation is separate than the life Christ called us into.

This is false teaching in all forms.

 

[Gregg T]

Eternal security sounds great when it's based on something someone does.

I am a proponent of OSAS, saved as having been born from above; but I do not believe it is based on anything I do.

What is this 'something someone does' that you speak of?

 

[MarkT]

I thought my answer was quite thoughtful.


This is a metaphor. When a believer is out of fellowship, he/she "withers". Spiritual growth is STUNTED. iow, they is NO spiritual growth, but ATROPHY. Shrinkage. And the "fire" here is divine discipline for such a believer. Simple.


There was no "wave". I guess I should have said Jesus was speaking of what being out of fellowship looks like. Withering, God's discipline.

To abide carries the connotation of fellowship. Rev 3:20 is a clear example of Jesus' desiring fellowship with believers. Unfortunately, too many people think this is an evangelical appeal for salvation.


See above for a much better explanation. While I don't necessarily expect agreement, if there isn't, then please do me the favor of explaining why my explanation fails to do justice to John 15:6. Thanks.


No wave. Just a true statement.


See above.


His spiritual growth withers, shrinks, etc. And he faces God's discipline and anger.


I've already done it.


How specifically? And what verses says so?


Right. Eternal security.

You still think abiding in him means fellowship with him. I don't disagree, but first you have to abide in him in spirit. And that's what Jesus is talking about when he says, 'I am the true vine' and 'as the branch can not bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. John 15:4 You have to abide in him in spirit. This goes to the teaching, "You have to be born again."

All you're doing is substituting words; fellowship for abide.

Jesus said if we abide in him and his words abide in us, then we have access to the Father and he will give us whatever we ask. John 15:7

If a man does not abide in him, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. Branches are gathered. The fire burns the branches. It follows that there must be a fire, and there is no other fire but the fire, the fire Jesus spoke of ie. the hell of fire Mt. 5:22, the eternal fire Mt. 18:8

 

[Papa Zoom]

Correct! The elect are kept by the power of God through or by the means of faith. Proponents who teach and believe one can lose their salvation, believes also ones WORKS of merit gains and maintains their salvation.. which gives evidence of not believing the gospel of Christ. Salvation is all of grace! Conditioned solely in Christ Jesus and His merits alone! Gods people will endure to the end. Why? Because it is God who keeps them by His power! This is salvation. The just live by faith! The elects assurance is in Christ and His merits by Gods mercy. Those who profess Christ and fall away were never saved to begin with. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1Peter 1:3-5.

 

[Gregg T]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Grace_theology

"Free Grace theology is a Christiansoteriological view teaching that everyone receives eternal life the moment that they believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviorand Lord. "Lord" refers to the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and therefore able to be their "Savior".[1] The view distinguishes between A) the "call to believe" in Christ as Savior and to receive the gift of eternal life, versus B) the "call to follow" Christ and become obedientdisciples.[1]"

The false teaching above bases ones salvation based on whether they believe or not. It also splits the Gospel of Christ in two, saying salvation is separate than the life Christ called us into.

This is false teaching in all forms.

I'm not a free-grace theologian, but I see a false dichotomy between A and B.

Repentance of unbelief is simultaneously 1. answering God's call to believe in Christ and 2. is his first act of obedience as a follower of Christ.

~ ~ ~

At the moment of his birth from above, God does these things simultaneously:
- sets a person in Christ, being covered with His blood, seats us with Him
- atones for, reconciles, justifies, and sanctifies
- seals him with the Spirit, raises Him in Christ, circumcises the heart, regenerates him, gives him a new nature being a new creature, is given gifts and the promise of an inheritance, writes His law on the heart
- transfers him into the kingdom of His Son, leads him captive
- makes him a pillar in His Temple, grants access to the throne of grace, adopts
- gives eternal life (the kind / type so as he will never perish)

 

[MarkT]

Absolutely not. The Greek word for 'confess' means to acknowledge that our actions are sinful, specifically. The word is literally "to say the same thing", or that we agree with what God says about our actions that are sinful.

Why should anyone think confession of sin helps save us, as your question insinuates?

Confession is not participating? Is repenting participating? Is following him not participating?

What about keeping his commandments? Is that not participating?

We have the teaching that we can have access to the Father and Jesus taught us how we should pray. Is prayer not participating?

1 John 1:9 is in a chapter where 'fellowship' is mentioned 4 times in 3 verses. So confession is contextually linked to fellowship.

It's how we receive cleansing from our sins. Jesus made that point in John 13 when He was washing the feet of the disciples (v.5). When He got to Peter, who was always slow on the uptake, didn't want Jesus to "demean" Himself by washing His feet, so he told Him, "you'll never wash my feet" (v.6,8). Whereupon Jesus said, "If I don't wash your feet, you can have no part of Me." (v.8) He wasn't speaking about salvation, but fellowship. Jesus had already noted that all of them were saved (clean) except Judas (v.10,11).

Here's the point. In Jesus' time, feet washing wasn't symbolic as it is practiced today. In that day, people used the same trails and roads as the animals. So the roads/trails were filled with animal excrement. Get the picture? So it was NECESSARY to wash feet before going into a home or business, etc.

Can you imagine carrying dog doo on your shoes when you go to visit a good friend? How much fellowship will there be as your friend must hold their nose while you're there? Not too much. The stench has a strong affect on the visit (fellowship) and not in a positive way.

In the same way, our sins are an offensive stench to God, and we need to 'clean our feet' whenEVER we sin. To get the "dog doo" off our feet so fellowship with God will not be hampered.

iow, we CANNOT have fellowship with God WHEN we have unconfessed sin in our lives. So we need to get our feet washed. That's what confession is for.

No one gets saved by confessing their sins. Because no verse says so.

He washed their feet before his sent them out to preach the gospel according to the saying,
Isaiah 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good tidings, who publishes peace, who brings good tidings of good, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”

 

[Nathan]

I am a proponent of OSAS, saved as having been born from above; but I do not believe it is based on anything I do.

What is this 'something someone does' that you speak of?

Do you believe it is based on anything you did?

The free grace theology believes it is based on people believing - as in, that first time they believe in Christ.

Christ came and died to set us free from sin. In Christ we are free from sin. Believers in Christ have Him as their Lord - a person who has Christ as their Lord is one who obeys Him. You cannot say Christ is your Lord and not obey Him. Free grace theology says you can.

1 John 1
4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

John 14
15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, "Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?"
23 Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Some are presenting a false teaching that you can not keep His commandments and yet still love Christ. Why do people stop their ears to only hear what they want, and not the rest of what Christ says?

 

[reba]

closed for moderator review

 

[Mike]

Opening back up with a caution not to quote part of a member's post, giving the appearance that his point was something other than what he made.

Do not respond to this post.

 

[FreeGrace]

How does free-grace theology differ from, say for instance . . . from a traditional non-Calvinist Baptist theology?

Thanks for the question. Not sure exactly what a "traditional non-Calvinist Baptist theology" consists of, but I suspect fairly close to free grace theology.

Man has free will to accept or reject God's gift of salvation.
Man cannot save himself, but must believe in the work of Jesus Christ, who died for everyone and gives eternal life to those who believe.
Spiritual growth is separate from getting saved. One must be saved before there can even be any spiritual growth.
A believer must be in fellowship (sins confessed and be filled with the Holy Spirit) in order to live the Christian life.
Every believer is a recipient of eternal life, and will never perish, per Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Grace_theology

"Free Grace theology is a Christiansoteriological view teaching that everyone receives eternal life the moment that they believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviorand Lord. "Lord" refers to the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and therefore able to be their "Savior".[1] The view distinguishes between A) the "call to believe" in Christ as Savior and to receive the gift of eternal life, versus B) the "call to follow" Christ and become obedientdisciples.[1]"

The false teaching above bases ones salvation based on whether they believe or not.

This is a stunning statement!! Of course one MUST believe in order to be saved. That was exactly Paul's answer to the jailer who specifically asked him what he MUST DO to be saved in Acts 16:30.

It also splits the Gospel of Christ in two, saying salvation is separate than the life Christ called us into.

One can be saved yet NOT grow up spiritually. The Bible makes that very clear.

Consider what the writer of Hebrews had to say to his audience in Heb 5:
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Or what Paul said to the Galatians in ch 4:
19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,

 

[Nathan]

This is a stunning statement!! Of course one MUST believe in order to be saved. That was exactly Paul's answer to the jailer who specifically asked him what he MUST DO to be saved in Acts 16:30.


One can be saved yet NOT grow up spiritually. The Bible makes that very clear.

Consider what the writer of Hebrews had to say to his audience in Heb 5:
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Or what Paul said to the Galatians in ch 4:
19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,

Being able to believe is a result of salvation, not the opposite. By saying a person has to believe before they are saved is putting the work of salvation on the person, not God.

God has provided a way of salvation for all mankind in His Son. Either you believe it, or you don't. Those who believe it are saved from the slavery of sin, and will be saved from the punishment of the wicked.

Those who do not believe are still in slavery to sin, and will receive the wrath of God when the end comes.

It is impossible for a person to be in Christ and not grow. There is no example of life on this planet that does not grow. Life demands growth, God designed it that way. If there is no growth then there is no life.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things-things that belong to salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Being able to believe is a result of salvation, not the opposite.

Then follow the TOS and provide Scripture that supports your claim. Paul's answer to the jailer refutes your claim, so we know there are no verses that support your claim. One is saved through faith. The faith comes first. That's exactly what Paul said to the jailer:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

'believe' is aorist tense, meaning in a point in time.
'will be saved' is future tense, meaning future to believing. iow, the believing occurs BEFORE the saving.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

There it is in red and white: God is pleased to save those who believe.

There are no verses that say that one believes because he is saved.

By saying a person has to believe before they are saved is putting the work of salvation on the person, not God.

I've just given 2 verses that refute your incorrect order of things.

God has provided a way of salvation for all mankind in His Son. Either you believe it, or you don't.

Of course. One MUST believe it to be saved.

Those who believe it are saved from the slavery of sin

This is exactly what I've proven from Scripture. So your earlier claim is completely out of syn with this statement.

It is impossible for a person to be in Christ and not grow.

Then why did Paul write this to the Galatians?
4:19 - My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you

Or, why did the writer of Hebrews say this in ch 5:
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

Or why Paul said this in Phil 2:12 - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

And why did Paul command believers to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit?

There is no example of life on this planet that does not grow.

That's interesting. I'd like to introduce you to Jesus' teaching in the parable of the soils.

Life demands growth, God designed it that way. If there is no growth then there is no life.

Then please explain all the infants who die in infancy. Life demands nothing. Growth is TOTALLY dependent upon sustenance. There is no growth when there is no sustenance, physically and spiritually.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things-things that belong to salvation.

And be sure to review Heb 5:11-13 first.

Your assumptions about the Christian life are not based in Scripture.

 

[Nathan]

Then follow the TOS and provide Scripture that supports your claim. Paul's answer to the jailer refutes your claim, so we know there are no verses that support your claim. One is saved through faith. The faith comes first. That's exactly what Paul said to the jailer:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

'believe' is aorist tense, meaning in a point in time.
'will be saved' is future tense, meaning future to believing. iow, the believing occurs BEFORE the saving.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

There it is in red and white: God is pleased to save those who believe.

There are no verses that say that one believes because he is saved.


I've just given 2 verses that refute your incorrect order of things.


Of course. One MUST believe it to be saved.


This is exactly what I've proven from Scripture. So your earlier claim is completely out of syn with this statement.


Then why did Paul write this to the Galatians?
4:19 - My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you

Or, why did the writer of Hebrews say this in ch 5:
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

Or why Paul said this in Phil 2:12 - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

And why did Paul command believers to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit?


That's interesting. I'd like to introduce you to Jesus' teaching in the parable of the soils.


Then please explain all the infants who die in infancy. Life demands nothing. Growth is TOTALLY dependent upon sustenance. There is no growth when there is no sustenance, physically and spiritually.


And be sure to review Heb 5:11-13 first.

Your assumptions about the Christian life are not based in Scripture.

Ephesians 2
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

If you believe that someone has to do something before they can be saved then how is that possible when we are dead spiritually?

Paul says God made us alive, do you believe that it was your choice to be made alive?

Faith is not our own doing, it is Gods - for the exact reason so we will not boast. How proudful is it to take credit for Gods work.

 

[Nathan]

Just another side note, Paul told the Jailer correctly. If we believe we will be saved, because if we turn from the faith in unbelief we will not be saved - Revelation 21

 

[eddif]

John 17:12 KJV
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The one that was lost had Satan enter him. No man took him out of his hand. Oh he was tempted by the money, but his fall was caused by Satan entering.

The little flock.

I think I will seek more about this.

eddif

 

[WIP]

Man has free will to accept or reject God's gift of salvation.
Man cannot save himself, but must believe in the work of Jesus Christ, who died for everyone and gives eternal life to those who believe.
Spiritual growth is separate from getting saved. One must be saved before there can even be any spiritual growth.
A believer must be in fellowship (sins confessed and be filled with the Holy Spirit) in order to live the Christian life.
Every believer is a recipient of eternal life, and will never perish, per Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

But didn't God also say this and how does this fit into the equation?
I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Exodus 33:19 NKJV

Also repeated by Paul in Romans
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Romans 9:15 NKJV

 

[WIP]

Continuing this line of thought is also this...

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 1:8-10 NKJV

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Romans 8:28-30 NKJV

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
John 6:44-45 NKJV

 

[Gregg T]

Thanks for the question. Not sure exactly what a "traditional non-Calvinist Baptist theology" consists of, but I suspect fairly close to free grace theology.

Man has free will to accept or reject God's gift of salvation.
Man cannot save himself, but must believe in the work of Jesus Christ, who died for everyone and gives eternal life to those who believe.
Spiritual growth is separate from getting saved. One must be saved before there can even be any spiritual growth.
A believer must be in fellowship (sins confessed and be filled with the Holy Spirit) in order to live the Christian life.
Every believer is a recipient of eternal life, and will never perish, per Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

Does free-grace theology recognize that repentence is necessary (along with faith) to enter into salvation?

 

[eddif]

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

If he is raised up at the last day, then is salvation complete then (judgement day)?

The books that are examined, who is the keeper of the books? Who guards the lamb's book of life? Was salvation placed in the lambs book of life? Who can modify entries in the lamb's book of life?

Don't panic. These are questions I am seeking answers for (answers from scriptures / nature).

eddif