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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
The problem continues to be the view that one who is in union with Christ can lose that union with Christ. Which is impossible from what Paul wrote in Eph 1;13,14.
I said this:
"I think that because we are commanded to abide in Him. If that referred to salvation, it would mean we participate in our own salvation."
We are PASSIVE recipients of God's salvation. He does the saving. Not us. But we ARE commanded to "abide in Him". That means action. So it CANNOT mean salvation.
How is that NOT eternal security?
If one wants to argue that receiving a gift is in some way a "participation", fine. But that's a far cry from what is required to "abide in Him".
How does a Christian maintain fellowship with the Lord? Specifically.
No believer can grow up spiritually without being in fellowship.
I do look forward to the answer to my question of how a Christian maintains fellowship with the Lord.
"I think that because we are commanded to abide in Him. If that referred to salvation, it would mean we participate in our own salvation."
The fact that we are commanded to "abide in Him" MEANS we participate in our salvation. And we DON'T participate in our salvation.
We are PASSIVE recipients of God's salvation. He does the saving. Not us. But we ARE commanded to "abide in Him". That means action. So it CANNOT mean salvation.
We are ALREADY "in Him" by the sealing with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And this indwelling is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14
How is that NOT eternal security?
Grace. That's why. All we can do is receive His gifts: salvation (Eph 2:8), eternal life (Rom 6:23), the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:14).
If one wants to argue that receiving a gift is in some way a "participation", fine. But that's a far cry from what is required to "abide in Him".
How does a Christian maintain fellowship with the Lord? Specifically.
The race is NOT for salvation. That would eliminate grace completely. Only the fastest runners win a race. That's ability. That's NOT salvation.
Which has nothing to do with salvation. It has EVERYTHING to do with spiritual growth, in which fellowship is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED.
No believer can grow up spiritually without being in fellowship.
Still nothing about salvation. We aren't disciplined for salvation.
I do look forward to the answer to my question of how a Christian maintains fellowship with the Lord.
The word "fire" carries a lot of different meanings and uses in Scripture.
That's my point.
I asked this:
"When a believer sins, is the Word "abiding" in their heart? It's there, all right. But is it abiding? No."
I asked, WHEN a believer SINS, is the Word "abiding" in the sinning believer's heart?
Well?
I suppose my expectations for an answer may be a bit too high, so I'll just go ahead and give the answer.
No, when a believer sins, God's Word is NOT ABIDING in His heart. It's there, all right. But it's being IGNORED. That's not abiding.
"When a believer sins, is the Word "abiding" in their heart? It's there, all right. But is it abiding? No."
That's not what I asked.
I asked, WHEN a believer SINS, is the Word "abiding" in the sinning believer's heart?
Well?
I suppose my expectations for an answer may be a bit too high, so I'll just go ahead and give the answer.
No, when a believer sins, God's Word is NOT ABIDING in His heart. It's there, all right. But it's being IGNORED. That's not abiding.
You think abiding means fellowship. So your question begs the answer.
I say yes. His word is active. If a believer sins, the word makes him clean.
Grace means good will, mercy, kindness, love, etc.
How does a Christian maintain friendship or fellowship with the Lord? By acting like a friend. But acting goes against your philosophy of not acting or participating.
Nathan
Member
No, that passage does not say it's impossible. You wanted examples of where you add words to the Bible, here is your example. Please underline in the following passage where Paul says we cannot leave the union with Christ. Paul is clearly stating that we have the seal of God in Him.
This is a message of encouragement for those who have believed in Christ, not a passage meant to tell others they are locked in and rebellion to Christ does not matter.
Ephesians 1
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
On the other hand, we see Paul very specifically stating some were deserting.
Galatians 1:6 (ESV)
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
I don't have to add any words to show the truth. People desert Christ when they turn to something else.
Do you disagree that Paul is saying that some were deserting Him?
Is this cleaning automatic, just because the Word in in the believer's heart?
The Bible says the believer is cleansed/purified by confession of that sin. 1 Jn 1:9
I asked this:
"We are ALREADY "in Him" by the sealing with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And this indwelling is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14
How is that NOT eternal security?"
I asked this:
"How does a Christian maintain fellowship with the Lord? Specifically."
How does a Christian maintain friendship or fellowship with the Lord? By acting like a friend.[/QUOTE]
I asked "specifically". The answer is anything but specific. My question was not about friendship, but fellowship.
From 1 John 1 where the word "fellowship" occurs 4 times in 3 verses, we know that confession of sin is the way to maintain or regain fellowship with the Lord.
Can a believer with unconfessed sin have fellowship with the Lord. Certainly not.
2 Cor 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
Believers are NOT in the light when they sin. They are in darkness, because John wrote this:
1 John 1:6-7 6 If we (believers) claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Note he didn't write: "if we (believrs) calim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lose our salvation."
Instead he wrote: we LIE and do NOT live by the truth. Said of believers.
"We are ALREADY "in Him" by the sealing with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And this indwelling is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14
How is that NOT eternal security?"
I don't see an answer here.
I asked this:
"How does a Christian maintain fellowship with the Lord? Specifically."
How does a Christian maintain friendship or fellowship with the Lord? By acting like a friend.[/QUOTE]
I asked "specifically". The answer is anything but specific. My question was not about friendship, but fellowship.
People act and act up all the time.
From 1 John 1 where the word "fellowship" occurs 4 times in 3 verses, we know that confession of sin is the way to maintain or regain fellowship with the Lord.
Can a believer with unconfessed sin have fellowship with the Lord. Certainly not.
2 Cor 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
Believers are NOT in the light when they sin. They are in darkness, because John wrote this:
1 John 1:6-7 6 If we (believers) claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Note he didn't write: "if we (believrs) calim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lose our salvation."
Instead he wrote: we LIE and do NOT live by the truth. Said of believers.
I said this:
"The problem continues to be the view that one who is in union with Christ can lose that union with Christ. Which is impossible from what Paul wrote in Eph 1;13,14."
The indwelling Spirit guarantees our inheritance for the of redemption. That is specifically eternal security.
Please explain why those words do not teach eternal security.
I cannot imagine any explanation to the contrary.
There's no wriggle room in any of God's guarantees. What He guarantees, He delivers on.
Ephesians 1
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Don't know which translation this is, but here's the NASB:
Eph 1:14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
The NASB is a "formal equivalence" translation, meaning word for word in normal English order.
However, even the translation you provided also shows a guarantee of the possession of our inheritance.
So, again, please explain what v.14 is guaranteeing? And how that isn't about eternal security.
That would require MORE POWER than God's, who saves us by His power. Not gonna happen.
Furthermore, Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable and described eternal life as one of those gifts. Rom 6:23 - 11:29
Jesus said recipients of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. That's a guarantee.
So, let's not presume anything, but stick with only what the Bible says. Not what some presume.
"The problem continues to be the view that one who is in union with Christ can lose that union with Christ. Which is impossible from what Paul wrote in Eph 1;13,14."
The sealing with the Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. How can anyone not see eternal security in that?
The indwelling Spirit guarantees our inheritance for the of redemption. That is specifically eternal security.
Please explain why those words do not teach eternal security.
I cannot imagine any explanation to the contrary.
There's no wriggle room in any of God's guarantees. What He guarantees, He delivers on.
My pleasure, as always.
Ephesians 1
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Don't know which translation this is, but here's the NASB:
Eph 1:14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
The NASB is a "formal equivalence" translation, meaning word for word in normal English order.
However, even the translation you provided also shows a guarantee of the possession of our inheritance.
So, again, please explain what v.14 is guaranteeing? And how that isn't about eternal security.
There is no reason to presume that leaving the faith means leaving salvation.
That would require MORE POWER than God's, who saves us by His power. Not gonna happen.
Nope. I've agreed that believers CAN leave the faith, turn their back on the Lord. But there is nothing in Scripture that teaches that ANYTHING can separate us from the love of God (Rom 8:35-39).
Furthermore, Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable and described eternal life as one of those gifts. Rom 6:23 - 11:29
Jesus said recipients of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. That's a guarantee.
So, let's not presume anything, but stick with only what the Bible says. Not what some presume.
Nathan
Member
Jesus said His sheep will never perish. That's a guarantee.
Paul was talking about people deserting Him who called them, not just the faith.
It is in Christ we have eternal security, so those who desert Him do not have that security.
It is false teaching to say we have eternal security if we desert Christ.
2 Peter 2
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Tell me this, is it possible to desert Christ and still have Him in you?
Luke 12:1 (ESV)
In the meantime, when so many thousands of the people had gathered together that they were trampling one another, he began to say to his disciples first, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy says one thing yet does another, it believes one thing, yet denies it with the actions it does.
1 Corinthians 10:21 (ESV)
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
That's eternal security. So there's NO REASON to think or claim that a saved person can end up in hell.
Please re-phrase. I cannot decipher this sentence.
Jesus NEVER added ANY CONDITIONS to His promise to recipients of eternal life. None. So your claim is untrue.
You've just misunderstood that rebelling against Christ, like a child may do against its parents, doesn't change the fact that the child and parents continue to be in that relationship, and all that rebellion does is screw up fellowship.
This is what I specifically asked in my post that hasn't been answered yet:
"The problem continues to be the view that one who is in union with Christ can lose that union with Christ. Which is impossible from what Paul wrote in Eph 1;13,14."
The sealing with the Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. How can anyone not see eternal security in that?
The indwelling Spirit guarantees our inheritance for the of redemption. That is specifically eternal security.
Please explain why those words do not teach eternal security.
I cannot imagine any explanation to the contrary.
There's no wriggle room in any of God's guarantees. What He guarantees, He delivers on."
The red sentence is the question. Thanks.
This in no way contradicts Jesus' promise to recipients of eternal life.
Yes. No one can get "out of Him" since having believed, they ARE sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption.
I hope that once Eph 1:14 is addressed, you'll realize that once sealed, ALWAYS sealed. Eternal security.
So I hope you'll answer my question, the red sentence above.
Then Paul explained what happens to believers who do that, which I call abuse of the Lord's Table:
"That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep." 1 Cor 11:30
See anything in this verse about loss of salvation?
It's continuous. But it requires our participation.
Nathan
Member
2 Timothy 3
12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2 Peter 2
17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
The seal of God is on those in Christ. Eternal security is in Christ alone. When you add words to passages it leads people to potentially believe they are eternally secure in something they did, and not in Christ. This is your answer. Are you presenting another Gospel in which someone can be saved outside of Christ?
Do you believe Paul is lying, were there some who were deserting God?
Galatians 1:6 (ESV) I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
I said this:
"The Bible says the believer is cleansed/purified by confession of that sin. 1 Jn 1:9"
Confession of sin is what we are supposed to do for cleansing of our sins. When we sin. I suppose if one sins "continuously" then, yes, one should confess continually.
But that would indicate a deeper problem, right?
Does our confession cleanse us? Or does God cleanse us when we confess? Important difference.
"The Bible says the believer is cleansed/purified by confession of that sin. 1 Jn 1:9"
Confession of sin is continuous? Which text says that?
Confession of sin is what we are supposed to do for cleansing of our sins. When we sin. I suppose if one sins "continuously" then, yes, one should confess continually.
But that would indicate a deeper problem, right?
Does our confession cleanse us? Or does God cleanse us when we confess? Important difference.
Well, since there was no specific dealing with anything I posted, I see no reason to deal with anything posted here.
When posters do this, my reaction is that my post isn't being read. So any response is simply "talking over me".
If my posts aren't going to be specifically responded to, I'd appreciate not replying to them. Thanks.
Nathan
Member
Your posts are responded to specifically. Like anything else I have seen you do, if it doesn't break things down the way you want you dismiss it. That's fine if you like to do that.
I'll keep presenting the Gospel.
Nathan
Member
God cleanses those in Christ - those not in Him have no propitiation for sins.
Hebrews 2:11 (ESV) 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,