Jesus. The Word, Power and Wisdom of God

[Randy]

What is the oneness Jesus taught? I do not remember reading it?

Jesus gave the gift of oneness that the Father gave Him. That we may be one as they are one. Jesus in us and the Father in Him. This is in the NT and is not hidden from you.

And the context is oneness not what was given. For in Christ all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. From the will of another. God was also pleased through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son

So we are in Christ and He is in us and the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. Oneness in the same manner.

 

[Cooper]

Jesus gave the gift of oneness that the Father gave Him. That we may be one as they are one. Jesus in us and the Father in Him. This is in the NT and is not hidden from you.

And the context is oneness not what was given. For in Christ all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. From the will of another. God was also pleased through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son

So we are in Christ and He is in us and the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. Oneness in the same manner.

I remember you saying that now, and while it is true that whatever the Father does, Jesus does, and visa-a-versa due to their oneness, it is not true that whatever we do, the Father does, and neither does Jesus do what we do.

 

[Randy]

I remember you saying that now, and while it is true that whatever the Father does, Jesus does, and visa-a-versa due to their oneness, it is not true that whatever we do, the Father does, and neither does Jesus do what we do.

The context is the oneness in the same manner. I am not Jesus or God.
I suggest you read all of John 17 for Jesus's prayer for His disciples and also for those who would come to believe in Him through their message.

The preexistence of the person of the Son.
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

When Christ came into the world

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

And the Christ in Heaven still refers to the One on the throne as His God and Father

 

[Cooper]

The context is the oneness in the same manner. I am not Jesus or God.
I suggest you read all of John 17 for Jesus's prayer for His disciples and also for those who would come to believe in Him through their message.

The preexistence of the person of the Son.
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

When Christ came into the world

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

And the Christ in Heaven still refers to the One on the throne as His God and Father

John chapter 17:20-26
The pattern for unity is the relationship between Father and Son, and the purpose is evangelistic. V21,23. The cycle here is faith leading to unity which leads others to faith. Another aspect of the unity theme is echoed in the opening words of this prayer. The suggestion is that the glory of Christ engenders unity. Not only must the unity be complete, but it must be shown to the world. If we pause to reflect on the church’s record of disunity, we can easily see how far we have fallen short of Jesus' requirements.

Jesus developed the unity theme (24) linking it with the Father’s love towards him before the creation of the world, an echo of the pre-existence theme already met with in verse 5. The concluding verses (24-26) follow on from v24 but also form a fitting climax to the whole prayer. The address to Righteous Father emphasises the justness of his view of the world. Again we meet with the strong contrast between the world and the disciples. That the 'love you have for me may be in them' means that they may reflect the Father’s love by their love for Jesus and others. The prayer thus ends with the request for the indwelling Christ in believers.

Regarding a slightly different theme consider also John 17:5 from the Hebrew Roots Bible. “And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the existence of the world.”

Source: “Bible Commentary published by Inter Varsity Press.”

 

[Randy]

John chapter 17:20-26
The pattern for unity is the relationship between Father and Son, and the purpose is evangelistic. V21,23. The cycle here is faith leading to unity which leads others to faith. Another aspect of the unity theme is echoed in the opening words of this prayer. The suggestion is that the glory of Christ engenders unity. Not only must the unity be complete, but it must be shown to the world. If we pause to reflect on the church’s record of disunity, we can easily see how far we have fallen short of Jesus' requirements.

Jesus developed the unity theme (24) linking it with the Father’s love towards him before the creation of the world, an echo of the pre-existence theme already met with in verse 5. The concluding verses (24-26) follow on from v24 but also form a fitting climax to the whole prayer. The address to Righteous Father emphasises the justness of his view of the world. Again we meet with the strong contrast between the world and the disciples. That the 'love you have for me may be in them' means that they may reflect the Father’s love by their love for Jesus and others. The prayer thus ends with the request for the indwelling Christ in believers.

Regarding a slightly different theme consider also John 17:5 from the Hebrew Roots Bible. “And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the existence of the world.”

Source: “Bible Commentary published by Inter Varsity Press.”

I believe in a Jesus who was before all things except His God the Father so when you consider John 17:5 do you note a Jesus who has been exalted to God's right hand? A Jesus who calls Him His Father and His God. "The glory I had with you before the world began"

I would simply state Jesus uses truth.

 

[Cooper]

I believe in a Jesus who was before all things except His God the Father so when you consider John 17:5 do you note a Jesus who has been exalted to God's right hand? A Jesus who calls Him His Father and His God. "The glory I had with you before the world began"

I would simply state Jesus uses truth.

To say Jesus (his name on earth) is not Yahweh is like saying Lewis Caroll (his name on books) is not Charles Lutwidge Dodgson. It would be like saying 'Randy is not, 'insert real name' For in him (Jesus) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily (Colossians 2:9 NRSV)

But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8 NRSV) In this remarkable passage, the Father calls his Son God.

So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. (John 17:5 NRSV) Yes, that is the truth.

 

[Randy]

To say Jesus (his name on earth) is not Yahweh is like saying Lewis Caroll (his name on books) is not Charles Lutwidge Dodgson. It would be like saying 'Randy is not, 'insert real name' For in him (Jesus) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily (Colossians 2:9 NRSV)

But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8 NRSV) In this remarkable passage, the Father calls his Son God.

So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. (John 17:5 NRSV) Yes, that is the truth.

I agree in part
Begotten of Father before all worlds but no made.

Yahweh doesn't have a God Jesus does. His God is Yahweh as He states. He also states Yahweh is the only true God. My Lord uses truth. And has been shown the fulness was gifted from the will of another Col 1:19 to dwell IN Him. Yahweh is that Deity that dwells in Christ.

Why would Jesus need the Father to dwell in Him to be one with the Father if He is Yahweh? Because He has always been the Son with His own spirit.

Jesus - It is the Father living in me.
The gift of the glory of oneness
Jesus - I have given them the glory you gave me.
Jesus - that they may be one as we are one.
Jesus - I in them you in me

The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

When you start believing what Jesus stated, and He is the head of the body of Christ, then you will know the truth of the matter.

If you have the Spirit of Christ in you and you know Him and have a relationship with Him you can ask Him if this is true.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

 

[Cooper]

I agree in part
Begotten of Father before all worlds but no made.

Yahweh doesn't have a God Jesus does. His God is Yahweh as He states. He also states Yahweh is the only true God. My Lord uses truth. And has been shown the fulness was gifted from the will of another Col 1:19 to dwell IN Him. Yahweh is that Deity that dwells in Christ.

Why would Jesus need the Father to dwell in Him to be one with the Father if He is Yahweh? Because He has always been the Son with His own spirit.

Jesus - It is the Father living in me.
The gift of the glory of oneness
Jesus - I have given them the glory you gave me.
Jesus - that they may be one as we are one.
Jesus - I in them you in me

The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

When you start believing what Jesus stated, and He is the head of the body of Christ, then you will know the truth of the matter.

If you have the Spirit of Christ in you and you know Him and have a relationship with Him you can ask Him if this is true.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

The I AM whose name on earth is Jesus. IS Yahweh!

 

[Randy]

The I AM whose name on earth is Jesus. IS Yahweh!

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

I guess you keep forgetting the one one the throne in heaven who the host of heaven call their Lord and God is Yahweh.
You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” Jesus is the translated name that His God named Him. The one who sent Him for His purposes.

It was Yahweh that spoke to us in these last days by His Son.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jesus is not the Father but the Father is in Him and they are one in that manner just as Jesus taught.

The works Jesus performed testify to that oneness just as Jesus taught.

Your turn.

 

[Cooper]

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

I guess you keep forgetting the one one the throne in heaven who the host of heaven call their Lord and God is Yahweh.
You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” Jesus is the translated name that His God named Him. The one who sent Him for His purposes.

It was Yahweh that spoke to us in these last days by His Son.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jesus is not the Father but the Father is in Him and they are one in that manner just as Jesus taught.

The works Jesus performed testify to that oneness just as Jesus taught.

Your turn.

Stop posting verses that speak of Christ's humanity, and anyway, you don't understand them. God needed to become like us to save us from our sins.

“God had to become one of us to redeem us from the guilt and penalty of our sin. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

God as God could not forgive us for our sins unless our sins were fully paid for; otherwise, He would have been a condoner and protector of the violation of His own holy law. It was only as a man, that God in Christ could furnish satisfaction sufficient to atone for the sins of mankind; for only a man, a true human being, could properly represent the human race. But at the same time, our Redeemer had to be God, for only God could furnish a sacrifice of infinite value, to compensate for the penalty of the eternal hell that our sin demands, according to the righteous claims of divine justice.

Only God could have devised a way of salvation that made it possible for Him to remain Just and at the same time become the Justifier of the ungodly and instead of sending them to the everlasting perdition they deserved it was the perfect Man who was also infinite God that furnished an effectual sacrifice for all believers of every age.

Gleason Archer

 

[Randy]

Stop posting verses that speak of Christ's humanity. God needed to become like us to save us from our sins.

“God had to become one of us to redeem us from the guilt and penalty of our sin. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

God as God could not forgive us for our sins unless our sins were fully paid for; otherwise, He would have been a condoner and protector of the violation of His own holy law. It was only as a man, that God in Christ could furnish satisfaction sufficient to atone for the sins of mankind; for only a man, a true human being, could properly represent the human race. But at the same time, our Redeemer had to be God, for only God could furnish a sacrifice of infinite value, to compensate for the penalty of the eternal hell that our sin demands, according to the righteous claims of divine justice.

Only God could have devised a way of salvation that made it possible for Him to remain Just and at the same time become the Justifier of the ungodly and instead of sending them to the everlasting perdition they deserved it was the perfect Man who was also infinite God that furnished an effectual sacrifice for all believers of every age.

Gleason Archer

I don't know Gleason Archer. I do know Jesus. Both Jesus in heaven and the host of heaven call the one on the throne their God. You believe Gleason but not the Son of the most High?

I am familiar with how Jesus the Son came down to us. It was by the will and expressed command of HIS God.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

The one Jesus was speaking of "you did not desire" and "a body you prepared for me" is Yahweh. Not quite the same as "I did not desire" and "I" prepared a body for myself.

How does this oneness speak of humanity?

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

 

[Cooper]

I don't know Gleason Archer. I do know Jesus. Both Jesus in heaven and the host of heaven call the one on the throne their God. You believe Gleason but not the Son of the most High?

I am familiar with how Jesus the Son came down to us. It was by the will and expressed command of HIS God.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

The one Jesus was speaking of "you did not desire" and "a body you prepared for me" is Yahweh. Not quite the same as "I did not desire" and "I" prepared a body for myself.

How does this oneness speak of humanity?

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

You say you are "familiar with how Jesus the son came down to us." He was not the Son at that point. Who was Jesus before he came down to us? Do you know?
Don't bother, I have had enough. Gleeson Archer is a Jew.

 

[Randy]

You say you are "familiar with how Jesus the son came down to us." He was not the Son at that point. Who was Jesus before he came down to us? Do you know?
Don't bother, I have had enough. Gleeson Archer is a Jew.

The Jesus in heaven calls the one on the throne His God and FATHER.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

He didn't become a new person.

The coeternal person of the Son - orthodoxy

 

[Cooper]

The Jesus in heaven calls the one on the throne His God and FATHER.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

He didn't become a new person.

The coeternal person of the Son - orthodoxy

But to the Son, the Father says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8 NRSV)

In Hebrews 1:6 the angels are commanded to worship Jesus. Only God is to be worshipped.

Goodbye.

 

[Randy]

But to the Son, the Father says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8 NRSV)

In Hebrews 1:6 the angels are commanded to worship Jesus. Only God is to be worshipped.

Goodbye.

Jesus Himself from heaven
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

First I believe Jesus is the firstborn 2nd Why would there be a need to command angels to bow to their God?
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Daniel 7
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

If you want to play orthodox and I really don't care here is the creed in regard to the Father and Son.

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation

 

[Cooper]

Jesus Himself from heaven
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

First I believe Jesus is the firstborn 2nd Why would there be a need to command angels to bow to their God?
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Daniel 7
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

If you want to play orthodox and I really don't care here is the creed in regard to the Father and Son.

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation

You do not even know what firstborn means.

King David was the youngest of ten children, but he was the anointed King of Israel and God's firstborn pre-eminent over all.

Manasseh was born first, but Ephraim is the "firstborn," not because he was born first, he wasn't, BUT Ephraim was pre-eminent over Manasseh, making him the firstborn.

When we are told Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, we are being told that Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation i.e. Jesus is Creator God, which is a re-affirmation of Col 1:16.

He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before (firstborn) all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. (Colossians 1:15-19 ESV)

 

[Randy]

You do not even know what firstborn means.

King David was the youngest of ten children, but he was the anointed King of Israel and God's firstborn pre-eminent over all.

Manasseh was born first, but Ephraim is the "firstborn," not because he was born first, he wasn't, BUT Ephraim was pre-eminent over Manasseh, making him the firstborn.

When we are told Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, we are being told that Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation i.e. Jesus is Creator God, which is a re-affirmation of Col 1:16.

He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before (firstborn) all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. (Colossians 1:15-19 ESV)

I know what firstborn means in regard to Jesus.

Do you see a pattern?
Jesus was begotten of the Father
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father - Eastern Church and as Jesus taught


As I presented already from scripture not your beliefs the Father is the origin and architect of all things not Jesus
The one who sits on the throne from the Host of Heaven
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

The Apostle Paul
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The creed
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

 

[Cooper]

I know what firstborn means in regard to Jesus.

Do you see a pattern?
Jesus was begotten of the Father
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father - Eastern Church and as Jesus taught


As I presented already from scripture not your beliefs the Father is the origin and architect of all things not Jesus
The one who sits on the throne from the Host of Heaven
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

The Apostle Paul
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The creed
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

I said I would not come back, but you need to get this straight.

There is ONE God who is Spirit. Right. The One God two thousand years ago humbled himself and took on Mary's flesh, becoming visible, and they called his name Jesus. This is the creator who came to his own to save them, and the world from their sin. You deny Him, the same as the Scribes and Pharisees denied him. That my friend is a very foolish thing to do. To do that is to deny the Saviour of the world, the Father in Him, and the sacrifice he made on our behalf. To deny Jesus is to deny the Lord God himself and the offer of salvation that requires us to follow Jesus all the days of our life, believing in the one who created the heaven and the earth. As I say, his name on earth is Jesus, He is the ONE God who existed from the foundation of the earth. All things were made by the Word, who became flesh for our sakes.

 

[Randy]

I said I would not come back, but you need to get this straight.

There is ONE God who is Spirit. Right. The One God two thousand years ago humbled himself and took on Mary's flesh, becoming visible, and they called his name Jesus. This is the creator who came to his own to save them, and the world from their sin. You deny Him, the same as the Scribes and Pharisees denied him. That my friend is a very foolish thing to do. To do that is to deny the Saviour of the world, the Father in Him, and the sacrifice he made on our behalf. To deny Jesus is to deny the Lord God himself and the offer of salvation that requires us to follow Jesus all the days of our life, believing in the one who created the heaven and the earth. As I say, his name on earth is Jesus, He is the ONE God who existed from the foundation of the earth. All things were made by the Word, who became flesh for our sakes.

I don't deny Him. I acknowledge One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.
I have shown scriptures that state what God made He made through Jesus. Even the creed states made through Him.
I have shown scriptures that state God exalted Jesus to His right hand and made Him prince and savior.
I believe Jesus was/is before all things except His God the Father.
I believe all the fullness of the deity dwells in Christ. The Father living in Him.
I believe Jesus purchased for God peoples from all nations by His blood. (including me)
I believe He layed down His life and took it up again and that He received that command from His God.

Again - all things were made through Him and for Him but all things as Paul wrote are from the Father for He created all things and by His will they were created and have their being as the host of heaven stated.

I believe the Father is the only true God and Jesus's God just as Jesus Himself testified to that truth.

 

[Cooper]

I don't deny Him. I acknowledge One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.
I have shown scriptures that state what God made He made through Jesus. Even the creed states made through Him.
I have shown scriptures that state God exalted Jesus to His right hand and made Him prince and savior.
I believe Jesus was/is before all things except His God the Father.
I believe all the fullness of the deity dwells in Christ. The Father living in Him.
I believe Jesus purchased for God peoples from all nations by His blood. (including me)
I believe He layed down His life and took it up again and that He received that command from His God.

Again - all things were made through Him and for Him but all things as Paul wrote are from the Father for He created all things and by His will they were created and have their being as the host of heaven stated.

I believe the Father is the only true God and Jesus's God just as Jesus Himself testified to that truth.

Jesus and the Father are One. To deny Jesus is to deny the Father. I'm done.