John 3:3 Picked Apart With A Question...

[stovebolts]

Oh, come on you guys, don't beat me up over that! lol. It was a half facetious comparison. Perhaps a poor one. But in a way sort of similar. If the NCO tells you to drop and give him 20, do you say "wherefore should I sir?" Of course not. You wish you hadn't if you do. In the same vein, zacariah went too far with Gabriel. BUT! Like Stove pointed out, there is a time for questions. God is very patient with us and I praise Him for that. Perhaps I am lucky that I did not get struck silent for questioning the Holy Spirit?! That wasn't a time for questions, there was urgency in his voice, for our brother needed help right then, and he is loved much, and time was of the essence.

He who is given much, much is expected. Zechariah was a priest, and a priest from the line of Aaron no less.
We have to keep in mind that Zechariah was in the Holy place of God, burning incense and in the presence of the Shew Bread which was illuminated by the shewbread in the very presence of G-d. And so Gabriel appears and tells him he is going to be a Father. Zechariah's words, although were in the form of a question, were simply words of doubt. ("How can I be sure of this") Zechariah wasn't reprimanded because he asked a question, he got reprimanded because of his disbelief. We must keep in mind who Zechariah was, where he was at, and what he was doing.

Gabriel then visits Mary, and Mary asks the question, "How can this be, since I'm a virgin". that was not a question of doubt. Jesus praises Mary for this response.

 

[Edward]

Concerning personal visits and dreams or visions of actual people from the bible, yes, I believe there's enough scripture to discount the validity of the claims.
.

Conclusively or just personal doubt of the man who claims such visit. I would be highly interested in reading the scripture you have to back that up.

SO let me get this right, to be sure. You don't hink that God would or has anything that He would/could reveal to a believer that is not covered by a scripture in the bible? Right?

He who is given much, much is expected. Zechariah was a priest, and a priest from the line of Aaron no less.
We have to keep in mind that Zechariah was in the Holy place of God, burning incense and in the presence of the Shew Bread which was illuminated by the shewbread in the very presence of G-d. And so Gabriel appears and tells him he is going to be a Father. Zechariah's words, although were in the form of a question, were simply words of doubt. ("How can I be sure of this") Zechariah wasn't reprimanded because he asked a question, he got reprimanded because of his disbelief. We must keep in mind who Zechariah was, where he was at, and what he was doing.

Gabriel then visits Mary, and Mary asks the question, "How can this be, since I'm a virgin". that was not a question of doubt. Jesus praises Mary for this response.

That's right, huh? I had not thought about it like that. The line of Aaron also, like you say. I understand the significance of that because it is what I have been reading lately in another trip through the OT, and I'm in Leviticus now. What you say makes sense brother.

 

[stovebolts]

That's right, huh? I had not thought about it like that. The line of Aaron also, like you say. I understand the significance of that because it is what I have been reading lately in another trip through the OT, and I'm in Leviticus now. What you say makes sense brother.

Leviticus is a wealth of illumination. From a broader view, you have the tribe of Levi consisting of the clans Gershon, Merari and Kohath. As you know, Aaron was the brother of Moses who was from the tribe of Levi of the clan of Kohath. While the Tribe of Levi was responsible for the care of the Tabernacle / Temple, only those from the line of Aaron were to be Priests. Thus, only those from the line of Aaron (Priests) were allowed inside the Tabernacle and thus, in the very presence of G-d.

Zechariah was a Priest from the line of Aaron. This is significant as John the Baptist was also a Priest from the line of Aaron. Zechariah, because of his genealogy had the rare opportunity to have access to the Holy place within the Temple and he actually ministered within the Holy Place. Why then would he doubt Gabriel? Zechariah did not ask a question, he doubted God's messenger.

We are told to Ask, Seek and Knock. God is always open to questions and yes, we can even question God. But we never let our doubts be disguised as rhetorical questions.

Since we are talking about the Kingdom of God, Have you considered what it means by, "The Kingdom of God is within you"
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Paul puts it this way: Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God./(KJV)

Now that's a curious way to word that...cannot see the Kingdom of God. We know that the Kingdom of God is within us and all around us, it's not 'out there' somewhere. It makes me wonder...We know that the Spiritual realm is more real than our natural realm. I've never seen any demons, Angels, or Jesus. Does this mean I'm not born again yet? (Fear of God creeping in here).

Sure, I've said the sinners prayer, have had many prayers answered, had a specific anointing for a specific task given to me once, where I heard his voice and there was no mistaking it...

I read testimonies, watch video testimonies, a lot, and there are lots of Christians who get to see into the spiritual realm, or even have visitations...not me (yet)...how about you? What do think about this, brothers and sisters?

It seems to read clear. If you're born again, you can see the kingdom of God...I haven't. Maybe I'm just paranoid. This makes me want to fast.

Thought I would add my two cents to the conversation.

This is what we call "already, but not yet theology." The fullness of the Kingdom of God will be in the New Creation, and we enter into this partially when we come to believe in Jesus.

Remember, in Jewish theology they were expecting the Messiah to bring about the new age, where he sets up his throne over the nations of the earth to rule in peace. Jesus did not setup a throne here on earth (not yet at least), but instead took up a throne at the right hand of the Father, to bring about the New Creation through the Holy Spirit's working through believers. We cannot bring about the fullness of this kingdom, that can only happen with Jesus returns, but we can certainly bring that kingdom with us to some degree.

So the Kingdom of God is not necessarily a "totally spiritual thing," but it is about the rule and reign of God over creation. We who believe are among that Kingdom, and we are already apart of that New Creation as we have been "born anew," and this is what Jesus was talking about and why he was so confused that Nicodemus, a Jew, did not understand.

 

[stovebolts]

John 3:3
It seems to read clear. If you're born again, you can see the kingdom of God...I haven't. Maybe I'm just paranoid. This makes me want to fast.

If you can see the Body of Christ (The Church), you've seen the Kingdom of God, for we are his Kingdom workers... :wink

 

[Edward]

Leviticus is a wealth of illumination. From a broader view, you have the tribe of Levi consisting of the clans Gershon, Merari and Kohath. As you know, Aaron was the brother of Moses who was from the tribe of Levi of the clan of Kohath. While the Tribe of Levi was responsible for the care of the Tabernacle / Temple, only those from the line of Aaron were to be Priests. Thus, only those from the line of Aaron (Priests) were allowed inside the Tabernacle and thus, in the very presence of G-d.

Zechariah was a Priest from the line of Aaron. This is significant as John the Baptist was also a Priest from the line of Aaron. Zechariah, because of his genealogy had the rare opportunity to have access to the Holy place within the Temple and he actually ministered within the Holy Place. Why then would he doubt Gabriel? Zechariah did not ask a question, he doubted God's messenger.

We are told to Ask, Seek and Knock. God is always open to questions and yes, we can even question God. But we never let our doubts be disguised as rhetorical questions.

Since we are talking about the Kingdom of God, Have you considered what it means by, "The Kingdom of God is within you"
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Paul puts it this way: Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Yeah, that makes all sorts of sense. Good, that makes me feel better. I was wondering because I have not ever been able to see into the spiritual realm if it perhaps had more serious ramifications than I realized. We know that there's all sorts of people who think their saved, but will not get into heaven, for it is written. My thought was that perhaps one had to have some sort of a breakthrough into this to get it all to click. Juust some more of me fleshy misunderstanding, lol. I'm glad I started this thread. Other perspectives from brothers and sisters are invaluable...

I do want to be able to see into the spiritual realm though. Perhaps now even more. lol. I think some people would be scared if they saw a demon or evil spirit or something, but you know what? I wouldn't. We have all of the authority in the cosmos over them in the Name of of our mighty Lord Jesus Christ. Besides, if you can see them, pfft, they can't sneak up on you, lol!

I've watched a lot of video testimonies on youboob from believers that can see spirits. (Then they know who to pray for!)
They can't all be lying and we do know that this is a spiritual war, so...press on in the Lord, brother!

Good post brother, thanks.

 

[Edward]

Thought I would add my two cents to the conversation.

This is what we call "already, but not yet theology." The fullness of the Kingdom of God will be in the New Creation, and we enter into this partially when we come to believe in Jesus.

Remember, in Jewish theology they were expecting the Messiah to bring about the new age, where he sets up his throne over the nations of the earth to rule in peace. Jesus did not setup a throne here on earth (not yet at least), but instead took up a throne at the right hand of the Father, to bring about the New Creation through the Holy Spirit's working through believers. We cannot bring about the fullness of this kingdom, that can only happen with Jesus returns, but we can certainly bring that kingdom with us to some degree.

So the Kingdom of God is not necessarily a "totally spiritual thing," but it is about the rule and reign of God over creation. We who believe are among that Kingdom, and we are already apart of that New Creation as we have been "born anew," and this is what Jesus was talking about and why he was so confused that Nicodemus, a Jew, did not understand.

Yeah, right Brother. I agree. Mostly...I do think that...your 'to some degree' statement may be...questionable? Consider this, Jesus said that

John 14:11-13
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son./(KJV)

He said "that I do"...not, that I did from birth to 33 years of age etc., or something. There is no qualifiers in place there, or limits. It is us that limits God in our lives. If we have enough faith to receive, in fullness the kingdom and Gods will within us, then...I don't think there are any limits within God will of course. Even the Lord prayer backs this up...thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. That could go awful deep if you think about it. On earth. Here and now. The Lord needs mature Christians to receive in fullness, not a bunch of scardy cat milk drinkers who need their diaper changed daily.

When we need the Lord for the crisis of the day, what do most people do? Run to the Pastor for prayer. (I'm not saying that there isn't a time and a place for prayer warriors to help) I'm just saying that we need to believe that we as believers can deal with many of these things ourselves (In Christ). Receive this authority in fullness. (Why couldn't we cast it out, Lord?---This kind goes out only by prayer and fasting, i.e., Lack of faith...!!)

So therein is my question of your statement of "to some degree" brother. It doesn't say "on earth as it will be in heaven" it says "on earth as it IS in heaven". What do you think of that brother?

 

[Edward]

If you can see the Body of Christ (The Church), you've seen the Kingdom of God, for we are his Kingdom workers... :wink

Yeah, right. I agree. We are the boots on the ground in the right place at the right time. He needs us here for good reasons.

"12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

There's a certain significance implied there that we can do very much on the ground here...if we can just receive it in fullness.

There are things that, in war, can not be done from the army base where they have all of the switches and missiles and great power and stuff...that a commando on the ground can do easily. In the right place at the right time. That's us, brother.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yeah, right Brother. I agree. Mostly...I do think that...your 'to some degree' statement may be...questionable? Consider this, Jesus said that

John 14:11-13
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son./(KJV)

He said "that I do"...not, that I did from birth to 33 years of age etc., or something. There is no qualifiers in place there, or limits. It is us that limits God in our lives. If we have enough faith to receive, in fullness the kingdom and Gods will within us, then...I don't think there are any limits within God will of course. Even the Lord prayer backs this up...thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. That could go awful deep if you think about it. On earth. Here and now. The Lord needs mature Christians to receive in fullness, not a bunch of scardy cat milk drinkers who need their diaper changed daily.

When we need the Lord for the crisis of the day, what do most people do? Run to the Pastor for prayer. (I'm not saying that there isn't a time and a place for prayer warriors to help) I'm just saying that we need to believe that we as believers can deal with many of these things ourselves (In Christ). Receive this authority in fullness. (Why couldn't we cast it out, Lord?---This kind goes out only by prayer and fasting, i.e., Lack of faith...!!)

So therein is my question of your statement of "to some degree" brother. It doesn't say "on earth as it will be in heaven" it says "on earth as it IS in heaven". What do you think of that brother?

I'm saying to some degree, because there is a future New Heavens and New Earth, where death and suffering will be no more, and God will reign on his throne among men.

Obviously, we are not to that stage yet, and that is what I meant when I said "to some degree."

I'm not saying that we can't experience the fullness of God, and joy of the New Creation here, but I am saying that the actual state of the Kingdom of God is not fully here on earth yet.

Make sense?

 

[reba]

Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So therein is my question of your statement of "to some degree" brother. It doesn't say "on earth as it will be in heaven" it says "on earth as it IS in heaven". What do you think of that brother?

Btw, I am talking about the time where the heavenly city of Jerusalem descends to the New Earth. I am not advocating for some spiritual heaven, but a renewed creation. So I agree, they said on earth as it IS in heaven. That will come to it's fullness when God makes all things new in finality, but he is currently in the process of making all things new.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Yes, the coming of the Kingdom of God cannot be observed, but I am talking about the coming of the Son of Man, where he will bring the fullness of that Kingdom to reign all over the earth, and not just in our hearts.

 

[Angel]

Leviticus is a wealth of illumination. From a broader view, you have the tribe of Levi consisting of the clans Gershon, Merari and Kohath. As you know, Aaron was the brother of Moses who was from the tribe of Levi of the clan of Kohath. While the Tribe of Levi was responsible for the care of the Tabernacle / Temple, only those from the line of Aaron were to be Priests. Thus, only those from the line of Aaron (Priests) were allowed inside the Tabernacle and thus, in the very presence of G-d.

Zechariah was a Priest from the line of Aaron. This is significant as John the Baptist was also a Priest from the line of Aaron. Zechariah, because of his genealogy had the rare opportunity to have access to the Holy place within the Temple and he actually ministered within the Holy Place. Why then would he doubt Gabriel? Zechariah did not ask a question, he doubted God's messenger.

We are told to Ask, Seek and Knock. God is always open to questions and yes, we can even question God. But we never let our doubts be disguised as rhetorical questions.

Since we are talking about the Kingdom of God, Have you considered what it means by, "The Kingdom of God is within you"
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Paul puts it this way: Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Very interesting! Did not know that John T. Baptist was from the line of Aaron. That's pretty cool!

 

[Edward]

I'm saying to some degree, because there is a future New Heavens and New Earth, where death and suffering will be no more, and God will reign on his throne among men.

Obviously, we are not to that stage yet, and that is what I meant when I said "to some degree."

I'm not saying that we can't experience the fullness of God, and joy of the New Creation here, but I am saying that the actual state of the Kingdom of God is not fully here on earth yet.

Make sense?

I'm not sure if I'm following you brother. I need to chew on this for a few to be sure I don't misunderstand you.

 

[stovebolts]

Yeah, that makes all sorts of sense. Good, that makes me feel better. I was wondering because I have not ever been able to see into the spiritual realm if it perhaps had more serious ramifications than I realized. We know that there's all sorts of people who think their saved, but will not get into heaven, for it is written. My thought was that perhaps one had to have some sort of a breakthrough into this to get it all to click. Juust some more of me fleshy misunderstanding, lol. I'm glad I started this thread. Other perspectives from brothers and sisters are invaluable...

I do want to be able to see into the spiritual realm though. Perhaps now even more. lol. I think some people would be scared if they saw a demon or evil spirit or something, but you know what? I wouldn't. We have all of the authority in the cosmos over them in the Name of of our mighty Lord Jesus Christ. Besides, if you can see them, pfft, they can't sneak up on you, lol!

I've watched a lot of video testimonies on youboob from believers that can see spirits. (Then they know who to pray for!)
They can't all be lying and we do know that this is a spiritual war, so...press on in the Lord, brother!

Good post brother, thanks.

As you read Leviticus, and especially Exodus, it's good to note that the Priests ministered barefoot. You see, the Tabernacle was patterned after heavenly things, and that in itself is a wonderful study. But in the midst of being surrounded by all that spirituality, the Priests were grounded with their feet firmly touching the ground. Is it such a wonder then that when Moses saw G-d in the burning bush, he was told to take off his sandals, for the ground he walked on was Holy Ground. I am reminded of a passage in Isiah, Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord G-d almighty, the whole world is full of His glory.

Back to the Priests, is it possible that when we come to close to spiritual things, it's too easy to leave the realm of this world? Perhaps in the midst of our spiritual journey, it's good to have our feet planted firmly in this world. I found out a long time ago that you can't separate the spiritual from the physical...

God bless

 

[stovebolts]

Very interesting! Did not know that John T. Baptist was from the line of Aaron. That's pretty cool!

Yes, only Levites from the clan of Aaron were allowed to minister in the Tabernacle.
There was a time which is recorded in Chronicles where other clans ministered, and those were dark times for Israel. At the time of Jesus, the line of Aaron was rightly established. Now then, the Sanhedrien (Sages) on the other hand, that's a whole other story. Herod had the original Sages murdered (most of them) and appointed his own council. You could call them Yes men. They didn't know their Torah. Hillel came into authority because he understood Torah, and was able to give guidance to the "appointed Sanhedrein" where they lacked understanding. It wasn't until about 300 AD that the Sanhedrien recovered from Herod's rule.

 

[RevSRE]

OK the word SEE is covered. WHAT DOES KINGDOM MEAN? So many people see this as a PLACE where some one in this case Jesus rules.
It may help us to do this if we first ask ourselves what questions would naturally arise in the minds of the more thoughtful of the people, when they heard the announcement, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." It was evidently, to such persons the Lord addressed Himself. The Greek speaking people of the early Church would know βασιλεία was an abstract idea meaning the royal authority of a king. When Christ began teaching He presented the Idea of the kingdom (βασιλεία) of God. All through His ministry He teaches of the kingdom (βασιλεία) of God. The question we are left with is what is the kingdom? In this teaching to what is He referring? The word for kingdom (βασιλεία) refers to the royal power, the authority to rule. 163 times the word βασιλεία is translated kingdom Not a place an authority!

 

[Gary]

Conclusively or just personal doubt of the man who claims such visit. I would be highly interested in reading the scripture you have to back that up.

Deuteronomy 4
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,

1 John 4
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 6
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.


What do these verses have in common? The physical appearance/likeness of the Father and Jesus. After His ascension into heaven, the physical likeness of Jesus became unknown. John and Paul, who witnessed His likeness, both agree that His physical appearance is unknown.

Because of the passage from Deuteronomy I don't believe Jesus would reveal Himself to anyone. The reason for that would be idolatry. His likeness would become known and images of His likeness could be produced. If that were to happen, many passages from the Word would have to be removed because of the contradictions. The inerrancy of the Bible would come into question.

I do believe that people have dreams and visions, but I don't believe anyone has ever seen Christ. There is too much at stake. Jesus is not going to reveal Himself before the final battle.


Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 8
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

John 20
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

SO let me get this right, to be sure. You don't hink that God would or has anything that He would/could reveal to a believer that is not covered by a scripture in the bible? Right?

Acts 2
17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,Your young men shall see visions,Your old men shall dream dreams.

.

 

[stovebolts]

Gary
Are you saying Jesus wasn't European with blonde hair and soft eyes?

 

[Gary]

Gary
Are you saying Jesus wasn't European with blonde hair and soft eyes?