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John 3:3 Picked Apart With A Question...

Gary said:
Deuteronomy 4
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,

1 John 4
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 6
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.


What do these verses have in common? The physical appearance/likeness of the Father and Jesus. After His ascension into heaven, the physical likeness of Jesus became unknown. John and Paul, who witnessed His likeness, both agree that His physical appearance is unknown.

Because of the passage from Deuteronomy I don't believe Jesus would reveal Himself to anyone. The reason for that would be idolatry. His likeness would become known and images of His likeness could be produced. If that were to happen, many passages from the Word would have to be removed because of the contradictions. The inerrancy of the Bible would come into question.

I do believe that people have dreams and visions, but I don't believe anyone has ever seen Christ. There is too much at stake. Jesus is not going to reveal Himself before the final battle.


Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 8
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

John 20
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”




:biggrin2

Acts 2
17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,Your young men shall see visions,Your old men shall dream dreams.

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Brother Gary, we don't disagree on much at all if anything. But I disagree with you on this. I went through this before, and with some of the same scriptures. I studied it out and have come to a different conclusion that you have. Long story short, what it amounts to (in my belief) is that no sinful flesh can see God and live. There's several accounts in the scriptures where people seen God. Not the Father, the Son. Abraham did, David did. Here, let me find some scriptures for you otherwise I'm just banging on a keyboard. ;)

Acts 2:25
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:/(KJV)

Acts 2:25
25 For David says concerning him, “‘I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;(ESV)

Exodus 24:9
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness./(KJV)

Genesis 17:1
17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect./(KJV)

Revelation 1:17
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last. (KJV)

I have more if you want brother, just ask. No sinful flesh has seen God. Those who walk with God can see Him and have. John the Baptist, Abraham, David, Moses & Aaron...lots of people in scripture has seen God.

:)
 
StoveBolts said:
As you read Leviticus, and especially Exodus, it's good to note that the Priests ministered barefoot. You see, the Tabernacle was patterned after heavenly things, and that in itself is a wonderful study. But in the midst of being surrounded by all that spirituality, the Priests were grounded with their feet firmly touching the ground. Is it such a wonder then that when Moses saw G-d in the burning bush, he was told to take off his sandals, for the ground he walked on was Holy Ground. I am reminded of a passage in Isiah, Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord G-d almighty, the whole world is full of His glory.

Back to the Priests, is it possible that when we come to close to spiritual things, it's too easy to leave the realm of this world? Perhaps in the midst of our spiritual journey, it's good to have our feet planted firmly in this world. I found out a long time ago that you can't separate the spiritual from the physical...

God bless
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They were barefoot? I didn't catch that in reading it.
It does seem easy to step into the spiritual realm...when it happens. I can't do it of my own volition, but when the Spirit comes...boom, gone. :)

You can't separate the Spiritual from the physical? I don't know if I agree with that. You should expound on that some because I've been studying the spiritual realm for a little while now and...it is separate, but at the same time, it is here, now...Maybe I'm just not following what it is you're trying to say...

Why do you spell God G-d? I've seen people do that before and I don't get it.
 
Edward
Does it bother you that I spell God G-d? I spell it G-d out of respect.

As far as separating the spiritual from the physical, I don't believe you can separate the one from the other, nor should one try. One's spirituality should be a practical spirituality where it can be applied in the physical. One does not have dreams or visions unless G-d is moving them to be, and do something here, now in the world we currently live in.

Deut 6:4 Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and strength. That's spirit, soul and body. All three make up the one and all three balance out each other in perfect harmony. Lean one way, and the other two suffer. In the same way, our salvation is wholistic... spirit, soul and body.

If you disagree, that's fine. I won't attempt to sway you otherwise.
 
It doesn't bother me, I just don't understand why it is done.

I don't disagree with the spirit/soul/body point that you're making. It's scripture, but I don't think that means that we can not separate them. Not that I'm out to try or desire to, just that it happens, and can. How about when people are taken up in the spirit? Their body is left behind. There's a separation right there.
 
Edward said:
It doesn't bother me, I just don't understand why it is done.

I don't disagree with the spirit/soul/body point that you're making. It's scripture, but I don't think that means that we can not separate them. Not that I'm out to try or desire to, just that it happens, and can. How about when people are taken up in the spirit? Their body is left behind. There's a separation right there.
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You're still alive, here, now. That should be more than enough to keep you occupied. But to answer your question, one day we will have a new body. Or are you talking about out of body experiences?

I don't think it's wrong to separate the physical from the spiritual when talking about one or the other, but we must always keep in mind that what we do physically, effects our spiritual journey, and what we think spiritually, will also bear itself out in our physical body in the things we do, way we act and how we view the physical things around us. That is what I mean by we can't separate them. They are forever linked.
 
Edward said:
What about all those verses I posted. Don't you want to address any of them? Am I not understanding them properly? How so?
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No, I'm fine. I do have a question though........if you don't mind.

Besides just knowing, how would you recognize Jesus if He did visit you?
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If you have asked Jesus Christ into your heart and have repented you have a ticket to heaven.No one can take you out of His hand.Do not doubt that.
 
StoveBolts said:
You're still alive, here, now. That should be more than enough to keep you occupied. But to answer your question, one day we will have a new body. Or are you talking about out of body experiences?

I don't think it's wrong to separate the physical from the spiritual when talking about one or the other, but we must always keep in mind that what we do physically, effects our spiritual journey, and what we think spiritually, will also bear itself out in our physical body in the things we do, way we act and how we view the physical things around us. That is what I mean by we can't separate them. They are forever linked.
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Now you're getting into spiritual realm talk, and I can talk about this all night. :) It's a little off topic, but it's my thread, so it's cool with me because this is interesting and important.
It could be an out of body experience, or with the whole body, like when Enoch and Elijah were taken. Even Phillip in Acts 8, his whole body went to a city about 27 miles away. When John was on Patmos and was taken to see a prophetic vision of Revelation, he only went in the spirit. But I'd bet money that he wasn't functioning in the natural realm at that time either.

When we get our new bodies, that will be a permanent crossover. But sometimes people see into the spiritual realm while in their natural body and so there is no separation. He's God, he can make it work either way, so I think it's incorrect to say that we can not separate the realms.

They are forever linked...until we get our new bodies! Until then, you are generally correct. We're here, and can't separate them of our own volition. But it can be done, right? It's just not the norm because we live in the natural realm.
 
Gary said:
No, I'm fine. I do have a question though........if you don't mind.

Besides just knowing, how would you recognize Jesus if He did visit you?
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Ok. How would I recognize Jesus, beyond knowing from His Spirit bearing witness with my spirit...?

I'd look for his markers. Which would be the nail prints on His hands and feet.
Even though many people dream and have visions of Jesus, and he's always bearded and in a robe, I had a dream where I "knew" it was Him, and He was clean shaven and no robe. It was Him though. He had on white pants and shirt, and I thought this a little odd, but don't drive myself crazy over it, or the lack of beard.
 
Edward said:
Ok. How would I recognize Jesus, beyond knowing from His Spirit bearing witness with my spirit...?

I'd look for his markers. Which would be the nail prints on His hands and feet.
Even though many people dream and have visions of Jesus, and he's always bearded and in a robe, I had a dream where I "knew" it was Him, and He was clean shaven and no robe. It was Him though. He had on white pants and shirt, and I thought this a little odd, but don't drive myself crazy over it, or the lack of beard.
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Do you believe this is the body Jesus will have for all eternity?
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Edward said:
I don't know...but probably. From everyone I hear, it is said that he carries the markers.
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Kathi and I are about to discuss this exact same topic in the thread labeled "In Heaven". It's in the lounge. Come on over and have a look. :)
 
I didn't read everyone's thing, but I don't think I saw this on here:
The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are 2 separate things;
The Kingdom of God is His ways and methods, the Kingdom of Heaven is the physical place that God occupies.
Otherwise, if the KOH was the same thing as the KOG then the KOG could not be inside you, because then that would mean that every Believer, when they leave their body, would go to live inside of you, which makes no sense and is impossible, and so on and so forth.

That's why those who persist in sin cannot SEE the Kingdom of God, doesn't say they can't be saved, it says they won't SEE the Kingdom of God - His ways, methods, manifesting in their lives.
Go back and read the Gospels and see for yourself.
 
TheCurseoftheRodain said:
I didn't read everyone's thing, but I don't think I saw this on here:
The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are 2 separate things;
The Kingdom of God is His ways and methods, the Kingdom of Heaven is the physical place that God occupies.
Otherwise, if the KOH was the same thing as the KOG then the KOG could not be inside you, because then that would mean that every Believer, when they leave their body, would go to live inside of you, which makes no sense and is impossible, and so on and so forth.

That's why those who persist in sin cannot SEE the Kingdom of God, doesn't say they can't be saved, it says they won't SEE the Kingdom of God - His ways, methods, manifesting in their lives.
Go back and read the Gospels and see for yourself.
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I think that the best way to compare the two is to do a word search on each one. One of our mods did that and posted it in a thread. It was eye opening.
 
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