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John 3:3 Picked Apart With A Question...

Truth and deception. ;)
So, what is truth and what is deception?

Could we as easily say that when truth is not present, deception rules?

Do me a favor and go back to Genesis 1 and tell me what is created. Is light created? Is darkness created?
What is darkness?
Does what God create create chaos, or does it bring order in the presence of chaos?
 
I actually think that fearing the Lord is part of our transformation. We fear the Lord when we look at His commands through our sinful nature. Fear is the beginning of knowledge our our Lord according to Solomon. In other words, we're afraid of bringing wrath upon ourselves, so we obey the Lord's commandments. As we live out those commandments, we start to understand why the commandments were put in place to begin with. At first, we may find the Lord's commandments as restrictive, and taking the fun out of living. But as we continue to obey, we begin to see, and feel the effects of living a Godly life. Life actually gets better! And our response transforms from fear, to thankfulness and eventually love! Where we once saw God's wrath, we are now able to see God's Love. While we were in our sinful nature, the commandments felt restrictive... but we found that they brought life.

Yeah, part of growing up and maturing in the Lord. The Lord wants mature souls in His Kingdom. I think the hierarchy goes; follower, friend, disciple, son, Bride. The more we obey, the less we murmur, the more we draw closer to him in studying, prayer & fasting, and seeking...the higher we can go.

Followers go to church regularly/irregularly and sort of obey most things, Disciples give everything up and walk with Him, Sons draw very intimately close to Him and obey/honor in everything they do...and the Bride is handpicked by Jesus (?)
Does that sound correct brother? I think that's right.

I want to move up in intimacy so I have no doubts. This is what I seek.
 
So, what is truth and what is deception?

Could we as easily say that when truth is not present, deception rules? (Yes)

Do me a favor and go back to Genesis 1 and tell me what is created. Is light created? (It pre-existed. When He created our realm He brought light into it, so no, Light wasn't created, it always was.) Is darkness created? (No)
What is darkness? (Darkness is the absence of Light)
Does what God create create chaos, or does it bring order in the presence of chaos? (It bring order in the presence of Chaos)
 
Exactly! The Kingdom of God is like the Military. This is no democracy. What the commanding officer says is Law, and is not questioned...it is obeyed. "Yes Sir" is the proper answer to anything from God.
Ask jasoncran if he would ever "love" our beloved Obama since Obama is our senior military commander.

I do not view the Kingdom of God like the military. We do not obey out of blind obedience. To do so is to never see God's true kingdom. God doesn't want blind obedience, he wants to transform us. To shed our sinful nature and take on the nature of Christ. It may very well start in fear and obedience, but once you've tasted it's rewards, the fear is just the beginning for understanding. Blind faith, and blind obedience requires zilch in the line of reasoning and understanding.

Questions... Yes sir, we are to ask quesitons... Seek, knock... and ask. It's a journey, not a destination.
 
Do me a favor and go back to Genesis 1 and tell me what is created. Is light created? (It pre-existed. When He created our realm He brought light into it, so no, Light wasn't created, it always was.) Is darkness created? (No)
What is darkness? (Darkness is the absence of Light)
Does what God create create chaos, or does it bring order in the presence of chaos? (It bring order in the presence of Chaos)

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.2 Now the earth was formless and empty,darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

So we see that God created the earth, and it was empty and darkeness was over it's surface.
God created the earth, but it was void. God did not create darkness.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

So we hear God speak, and through his word (Jesus) light is created. Darkness wasn't created. Darkness is simply the absence of light. If you take a light into a dark room, it pierces through the darkness. The nature of light is that it overcomes darkness. Furthermore, when God creates, he brings order where there was once chaose, and void of structure for this is the nature of our Lord. He brings structure and order where there was once chaos.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Light and darkness contrast with good and evil. Evil isn't necessarily something you do, but rather, it's something you failed to do. It's when you withhold good that you could have done. In other words, when you don't live the Way Jesus shows us to live. You see, people don't want to serve other people unless they get something out of it for their own personal gain. That's not the Way of Jesus, and for those who live in their sinful nature, they will never see the Kingdom of God because they are takers and they don't know how to give. You see, greed (darkness) is simply the absence of generosity (light) as pride (darkness) is the absence of humility (light) and most people will choose their own self gain (darkness) before giving to others (light). Darkness is always there, but light bring order where there was once chaos...Example: they won't give to others to the point where they themselves experience temporarily suffering. It's like the woman who put in 2 denaros. She gave out of her poverty, and it was more than he who gave 100 denaros, but it never took anything off his table. If you want to see the Kingdom of God, fear is the beginning of understanding. Ask, seek and knock and don't let your faith waiver and that fear, will be transformed into love with a fuller understanding of why God would call us to obedience, and it's not a blind obedience.
 
Rom_14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

I dont see Military hierarchy in His kingdom.How does that fit into.... Peace and righteousness and Joy in the Holy GHost
 
Oh, I'm not thinking about works brother. I'm thinking about drawing closer to the Lord, then he will draw closer to me. More prayer, more fasting, more reading...all of that. I want a visitation from Jesus. I want a hug, I want to shake his hand, I want to bow down to Him in person. Can you imagine what it would do for ones walk to have a visitation?! Wow!

If you did get a visitation, how would you know if it was actually Jesus or not?
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Ask jasoncran if he would ever "love" our beloved Obama since Obama is our senior military commander.

I do not view the Kingdom of God like the military. We do not obey out of blind obedience. To do so is to never see God's true kingdom. God doesn't want blind obedience, he wants to transform us. To shed our sinful nature and take on the nature of Christ. It may very well start in fear and obedience, but once you've tasted it's rewards, the fear is just the beginning for understanding. Blind faith, and blind obedience requires zilch in the line of reasoning and understanding.

Questions... Yes sir, we are to ask quesitons... Seek, knock... and ask. It's a journey, not a destination.

Aw, come on man, neither do I . My point was merely that one does not question God when He gives an order. Similar to. That's a very loose association.

And yet, you're entirely correct. We can and should ask questions, but the right kind. Who was it Zacariah? Got struck silent for questioning Gabriel about the birth of John? (Yet Mary did not!) Men have the greater spiritual responsibility, besides, Mary, even though she did not understand it, said...let it be so unto me as you have said, so she kind of showed more respect than Zac did.She understood that one does not need to understand to be able to trust God.

I think that God does appreciate blind faith and blind obedience, for it is the greater faith. But He is a loving God and certainly longsuffering so He will answer questions. When the Holy Spirit came over me and told me to pray for my brother, he needs help. I asked Him why, what is wrong? He didn't give me an explanation, He said Pray for Him now he needs help. So I did, right then without further question. There is a time for questions, and there is a time for Obedience.

Abraham had great courage to ask God soo many times about Sodom & Gomorrah. I admire his courage in that (and his love for his fellow man!) AND God's longsuffering and willingness to compromise so many times with Abraham! Wow. That story blows my mind.
 
the kingdom of god has some things like the army but god doesnt really work like an officer nor an nco.

Rom_14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

I dont see Military hierarchy in His kingdom.How does that fit into.... Peace and righteousness and Joy in the Holy GHost

Oh, come on you guys, don't beat me up over that! lol. It was a half facetious comparison. Perhaps a poor one. But in a way sort of similar. If the NCO tells you to drop and give him 20, do you say "wherefore should I sir?" Of course not. You wish you hadn't if you do. In the same vein, zacariah went too far with Gabriel. BUT! Like Stove pointed out, there is a time for questions. God is very patient with us and I praise Him for that. Perhaps I am lucky that I did not get struck silent for questioning the Holy Spirit?! That wasn't a time for questions, there was urgency in his voice, for our brother needed help right then, and he is loved much, and time was of the essence.
 
If you did get a visitation, how would you know if it was actually Jesus or not?
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I didn't have any problem knowing that it was the Holy Spirit telling me to pray for my brother. I just...knew. I could feel it. It was the strongest presence of God that I have EVER felt. Did I drop the ball? Scripture says to test ALL spirits., and yet...I knew His voice like scripture says I would. I just knew it. There was no doubt. It didn't even occur to me to ask Him if Jesus came in the flesh...

I also once dreamed that Jesus was teaching me to fly. From below, holding my ankles and we were flying and he was talking to me. Yet when we landed on a roof and chatted for a while, he was clean shaven and didn't wear a robe! But I KNEW it was Him. I could feel it.

OTOH, I once dreamed a different dream wherein I was snatched from the ground by unseen forces and began flying towards the mountains. I felt the evil presence, no doubt. I remembered the authority of the name of Jesus and said, you have no right or power over me in the name of Jesus Christ, you will not harm me, you will out me down...and I immediately began descending to be gently deposited upon a mountaintop. The evil presence left. I thought, dang, now how will I get home? Then I thought, huh, God just saved me, he wont leave me here to walk...and I immediately was lifted into the air, this time by a loving presence of God and flown home and gently put down again! EOD. Wow. Huh?

God has a way of making Himself known brother. His sheep know Him and His voice. I have never felt the need to question God or His Spirit. If there is ANY doubt, then test the spirit. Does that make sense?
 
I didn't have any problem knowing that it was the Holy Spirit telling me to pray for my brother. I just...knew. I could feel it. It was the strongest presence of God that I have EVER felt. Did I drop the ball? Scripture says to test ALL spirits., and yet...I knew His voice like scripture says I would. I just knew it. There was no doubt. It didn't even occur to me to ask Him if Jesus came in the flesh...

I also once dreamed that Jesus was teaching me to fly. From below, holding my ankles and we were flying and he was talking to me. Yet when we landed on a roof and chatted for a while, he was clean shaven and didn't wear a robe! But I KNEW it was Him. I could feel it.

OTOH, I once dreamed a different dream wherein I was snatched from the ground by unseen forces and began flying towards the mountains. I felt the evil presence, no doubt. I remembered the authority of the name of Jesus and said, you have no right or power over me in the name of Jesus Christ, you will not harm me, you will out me down...and I immediately began descending to be gently deposited upon a mountaintop. The evil presence left. I thought, dang, now how will I get home? Then I thought, huh, God just saved me, he wont leave me here to walk...and I immediately was lifted into the air, this time by a loving presence of God and flown home and gently put down again! EOD. Wow. Huh?

God has a way of making Himself known brother. His sheep know Him and His voice. I have never felt the need to question God or His Spirit. If there is ANY doubt, then test the spirit. Does that make sense?

Dreams and feelings. Is that the type of visitation you were referring to? If not, how would you know it was Jesus?

I personally have my doubts about the stories of Jesus visiting certain people. I believe in dreams and visions, but personal visitations....no.

But that's just me. :biggrin2
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No. I mean I want a full on visit, in person. Not in a dream or vision. I do not think that it is possible to be in the presence of Jesus Himself and not know it without question.

I think Jesus visits people everyday somewhere.
 
No. I mean I want a full on visit, in person. Not in a dream or vision. I do not think that it is possible to be in the presence of Jesus Himself and not know it without question.

I think Jesus visits people everyday somewhere.

That's not supported by scripture.

You should start a thread on the topic. :yes
 
That's not supported by scripture.

You should start a thread on the topic. :yes

With all due respect brother, to you and to the scriptures...do you think that the scriptures ensconce the entire fullness of the mysteries or knowledge of God? While I believe that the scriptures contain enough of a wealth of life and information that it could not be absorbed in full from a lifetime of diligent study...I also see it sort of...a guide for us, which while enough to point us to God by giving us what we need to do so...it only really scratches the surface of God and His fullness of truth.

Even when Jesus walked the earth, it is written that if all of things which He did and said were to be written down...that the world could not contain the books (or something like that.)

That said....while the scriptures are every bit as important and valuable as you say and imply (no argument there at all)...does that or would that discount any validity of a personal revelation to a believer from the Holy Spirit or from a personal visit that one may have from any of Gods Kingdom, merely because what is revealed may not be in the scriptures?

That is indeed a big question, and deserving of it's own thread. :eek2

be gentle brothers and sisters...
 
That said....while the scriptures are every bit as important and valuable as you say and imply (no argument there at all)...does that or would that discount any validity of a personal revelation to a believer from the Holy Spirit or from a personal visit that one may have from any of Gods Kingdom, merely because what is revealed may not be in the scriptures?

Concerning personal visits and dreams or visions of actual people from the bible, yes, I believe there's enough scripture to discount the validity of the claims.
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I've always understood "see" in the verse to mean "enter into' or 'approach' either way, I don't think any of us get to actually see it until God knows the truth of our faith and then it gets down to when the time is right FOR HIM to reveal it.
Works etc. will have no bearing on His will.

So simple a statement, and yet amazingly profound; for you just summed up 2 Thessalonians 2 perfectly.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means:for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

This isn't speaking of a rapture event, this is speaking of being born again. It is each of us who is a man of sin, the son that is going into perdition, and we exalt ourselves above the throne of God by thinking that our own righteousness and our own works and obedience to the Law might garner the Lords favor, or that by our righteousness we may add unto to the Lord's. It is that man of sin that is destroyed with the brightness of his coming; for through the death of Christ we are dead to the law of sin, and yet are made alive in the resurrection of Christ. Made alive to walk by faith in the image of Christ in the kingdom of our Lord.

Many do err when they read into these versus the Antichrist, or Satan as the one sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. But quite the contrary, it is Satan who wants YOU to exalt yourself above all that is called God. This has been declared to you from the beginning: Two ways were set before you, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge. The Tree of Life by way of Faith, and the tree of knowledge by the way of obedience; and the serpent who deceived Eve saying you shall not die, you shall be as God's knowing good and evil. The serpent has only sought for you to continue partaking of the tree of knowledge, so that you would sit in the temple of God, showing yourself that you are God, judging good and evil. The bible for many is become to them a tree of knowledge, a tree to make one wise, whose only end is death.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but if you seek a closer relationship with the Lord, then put away your bible. If your relationship with God is defined by or is dependent upon the bible, then you are not living by Faith. You already know the scripture, you've read the beatitudes a hundred times: set down your bibles and learn to trust in the Lord. And as Paul1965 said: when the time is right for HIM to reveal it, you shall become born again, and then you will find in your scriptures an innumerable cloud of witnesses sharing with you their testimony.
 
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Edward

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

From a biblical perspective, what does light and darkness represent?
I had an experience where the power went out and I groped around in the darkness trying to find a flashlight. I couldn't see a thing... it was a revelation on those who are in the darkness... Won't forget it.
 
I had an experience where the power went out and I groped around in the darkness trying to find a flashlight. I couldn't see a thing... it was a revelation on those who are in the darkness... Won't forget it.
Good object lesson!
 
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