John the Baptist

[Webb]

Hi Smaller
I've twice ask you "Was John under the law of Moses? You REFUSE to answer. Instead you write: ''What does that have to do with salvation by Grace though faith?" Why, sir, can't you answer a simple question? This thread is entitled "Was John the Baptist Saved." If one presumes to believe scripture, then of course we understand John must be saved. The question then is WHEN saved? Thats why the question (you until now refuse to answer) "was John under the law of Moses?" is appropriate. Thus I shall continue to ask the question. BTW, your above expression, "salvation by Grace through faith?" is from Eph.2:8 which is in the NT. Thats why the question "was John under the law of Moses?" is important. Its obvious WHY you refuse to answer, its that "corner getting smaller" thing, isn't it.

Then you write: "I could point to the fact that the Gospel was preached to the Old Testament people and you will totally ignore that fact. Why? BECAUSE YOUR SUBJECTIVELY IMPOSED COMPONENTS WERE NOT IN PLACE YET." No sir, I will not ignore that fact. I in fact will agree. It has been said that the theme of the OT is SOMEONE IS COMING, and the theme of the first four books of the NT is SOMEONE HAS COME, and the theme of the rest of the NT is SOMEONE IS COMING AGAIN, and that Someone is Christ. However, the gospel preached in the OT was done prophetically and NOT in FULLNESS and in FACT. It awaited the death, burial and resurrection of my Saviour for it to be preached in fuillness and in fact which preaching began in Acts 2 on the 1st Pentecost following Jesus' victory over death in the city of Jerusalem. What say you now?

Next you say "Abraham SPOKE post death in Luke 16." I believe that. So what? This is the 2nd time I've told you that. What has this to do with whether or not John was saved and more importantly when saved? If you will please address what it has to do with the subject of this thread I shall then address the same. You say "---they are still WAITING for the 'final construct' as well,--." Will you please explain what you mean by ' "final construct' as well".

Then you quote Jn.11:26. That was spoken by Jesus to Mary and Martha and the context shows Jesus is referring to His resurrection. Querstion Smaller: Had Jesus resurrection occured at this time? Had it occurred in the day of John? Remember what I said regarding your inability to "rightly divide the word of truth? Do you know Paul said Jesus was "DECLARED TO BE THE SON OF GOD WITH POWER, ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS, BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD"? Rom.1:4. When?

Finally you conclude: ''In 'Webb's world' WE'D HAVE TO HEAVILY EDIT AND REDACT THOSE WORDS OF HIM WOULDN'T WE? We't have to add:
A. Wait till I die on the Cross
B. Wait til I am resurrected
C. Get baptized in water
D. Belong to webbs sect

I shall answer the above with scripture:
A. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us". Rom.5:8. If we could be saved without the death of Jesus
WHY did He have to suffer and die as He DID???
B. Romans 1:4 which I quoted above. Could any be saved without the realityof
His resurrection?
C. Jesus, the One who will be your judge (John 12:48) said: "He that believeth and
is baptized shall be saved---." Your argument, sir, is not with me but the
Christ.
D. I do here confess I belong to the same "SECT" the apostle Paul was accused of
belonging to in Acts 8:22, which SAME sect you attempt to persecute.

Now, I shall ask again of you these questions: (Was John under the law of Moses? (2) Could the blood of animals save? and now (3) How do you explain Heb.11:39,40?

Have a good night

 

[wayseer]

Again, the blood of bulls and goats could not, could not, take away sin.

This is bad theology.

It was not that the system of sacrifice that was the problem - it was fact that the 'system' became manipulated to serve the interest of the elite. If the 'system' of sacrifice was the 'problem' then Jesus' death means little if anything.

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller
I've twice ask you "Was John under the law of Moses? You REFUSE to answer.

We've already ran this drill out Webb, and you merely funnel the law of Moses down, as many do, to what you believe it to be.

I believe the Law of Moses is The Word of God, The Word of Christ HIMSELF, and as such I also believe Jesus Christ who said that MAN will live by EVERY WORD of God, Luke 4:4.

Your filter doesn't cut the mustard on this matter.

Now, we did this deal before and you rejected the sight of fact, preferring again your imposed RED HERRING of Gods Words.

There are several posters here who have a similar approach. The Words of God in your world eliminate the Words of God.

It is quite a laughable set of polemics.

Instead you write: ''What does that have to do with salvation by Grace though faith?" Why, sir, can't you answer a simple question?

Because your red herrings have no bearing on the matters.

In your own mind whenever you read 'The Law of Moses' only one thing gets through your ears. That ALL there is therein is ONLY what you see and hear.

I will tell you flat out that such hearing DOESN'T HEAR!

And even though I can point to vast amounts of N.T. scriptures that show openly that GRACE and FAITH and MERCY and LOVE and the righteousness of God apart from LAW are for no uncertain FACT, testified to IN THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS, that the entirety of N.T. teachings came exactly FROM THOSE O.T. SCRIPTURES....
you still can't hear it.

It's like discussing with a broken record.

This thread is entitled "Was John the Baptist Saved." If one presumes to believe scripture, then of course we understand John must be saved. The question then is WHEN saved?

And that question isn't even required. In fact it's just plain old ridiculous.

John the Baptist NEVER TASTED DEATH just as Jesus shows us...

he passed immediately from LIFE TO LIFE just as ALL those in faith before or after the CROSS so passed and ESPECIALLY SO for His Prophets.

Your impositions are meaningless.

s

 

[wayseer]

Just to clarify - John The Baptist was living under the 'Law of Moses' in that the Temple sacrificial system was in full operation. It should also be recognized that Jesus was living under that same system. Both John and Jesus belonged to the same family group of which Zechariah was also a member and he was a Levite - a practicing priest at the Temple. Both John and Jesus would have been imbibed with the sacrificial system.

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

You have got to take the prize of how one reacts when forced into a corner.

God bless anyway

 

[wayseer]

Hi Webb

I notice that are less than forthcoming in supporting your own claims.

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller

You have got to take the prize of how one reacts when forced into a corner.

God bless anyway

Webb says the Word of God as it pertains to the Law of Moses is GONE.

Webb has no idea that the LAW is SPIRITUAL.

But, hey, someday Webb might see he got caught in his own limited WEBB.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual

No, no, no, it is only about butchering animals for sacrifices he cries.

You only see things on the surface Webb, and not much further. And you do so for the sole intentions of bringing believers into CONDEMNATION post belief by faith in Jesus Christ and the complete sufficiency of GRACE.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You should work on your serve. It would do your heart some good. The instant someone believes you factually seek to bring them into condemnations.

I'd say such efforts are quite illegal.

It's not unusual in the world of religious people.

s

 

[BornAgain]

John the Baptist was under the Law of Moses which was in effect until Jesus was crucified then and now we are under the Christian Law, the Law of Christ, the Law of Liberty.

Colossians 2:14 (KJV)
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Not a soul was ever saved by the law of Moses, because none ever kept it, save Jesus Christ who fulfilled it completely. And he was not lost, to need salvation. People under the law of Moses were saved, but it was by and through Christ. No man could be justified by the law, because all sinned and violated the law, and law condemns, and does not justify, or purge from sin. All Jews and Gentiles have sinned, or broken the law, so cannot be saved by law. The law was given to train and prepare men for the reception of Jesus Christ, the promised seed, in whom all nations of the earth should be blessed.

which was contrary to us:-The Mosaic law condemned, but could not save, so it "was contrary to us."

and he hath taken it out of the way,—The whole of the Mosaic law, including the commandments written on stones 2 Cor 3:7, was taken out of the way, nailed to the cross, and is no longer in force as a law in any of its parts. In the new covenant many laws that were in the old covenant were re-enacted and are to be obeyed not because they were in the old, but because they are a part of the new.

nailing it to the cross;—It (the Law of Moses) was taken out of the way when Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross. [This is a very graphic way of saying that the obstacle to forgiveness which lay in the law—in the justice of God of which the law is an embodiment—was removed by the death of Christ. Practically the nails which fastened to the cross the hands and the feet of Jesus, and thus slew him, pierced and invalidated the law which pronounced the just condemnation of sinners. Paul could say: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." Rom 8:1. By the cross of Christ Paul could truthfully affirm that "the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Gal 6:14.

 

[BornAgain]

Romans 7:14/New Testament-the Law of Christ

Romans 7:14 (KJV)
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Man was carnal and could not receive and cherish in his carnal heart the abiding Spirit. The mind perceived the truth, but his heart, unchanged and dominated by the flesh, did not cherish or obey it, and while in that condition could not be freed from sin.

New Testament

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those who listen to the voice of Christ and are obedient to his will escape death and come into possession of spiritual life because he is both the source and giver of life. This life which he gives is inherent in him because it exists in his Father who is of the same nature as he. And, God also gave him "authority" to judge as a man in the flesh though as deity he possessed it by nature. We must remember that Jesus was the Son of God, on the divine side, the son of man, on the human side. This eminently qualifies him to do the work assigned by the Father—to judge. He knows fully the trials of man and can sympathize with all who are sorrowful of heart; and at the same time he can execute pure justice being himself deity.

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

I have not said the things you accuse me of nor do I believe such.

1. I have not said the law was not spiritual.

2. I have not said the law of Moses is "GONE." Try I Cor. 10:11 instead.

3. I do not seek to bring "believers into condemnation."

It could be that "Such efforts are quite illegal" if I did or said any of the above. The old saying applies here: "Your wish is the father of the thought."

Now, will you please answer my questions?

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller
I do not seek to bring "believers into condemnation."

That's pretty much a foregone conclusion. If anyone believes by faith that Jesus is their Savior, you will actually claim they are not saved until they do your ritualistic performances, like WATER BAPTISM... THEY REMAIN CONDEMNED until they do so. That's the first place you take them, directly into condemnation.

Jesus, pre Cross:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus, pre Cross:

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Now, will you please answer my questions?

Your sifter never got out of the gate the instant you delayed John the Baptist eternal life on any basis.

You eliminate Jesus' Words above first, and then we'll talk about your view about it.

But that ain't gonna happen is it Webb?

s

 

[wayseer]

Now, will you please answer my questions?

There are any number of questions which you have not answered. Before demanding that others answer you you might like to answer a few of your own.

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

Your "Pre-Cross" passages ( Jn.5:24 and Jn.11:26 ) were spoken before the same Christ spoke Mk.16:15,16. I take and believe EVERYTHING Jesus said. BTW, I believe the belief Jesus uses in the above passages includes repentance as well as confessing that Jesus is the Christ. How about you? Will you answer this?

Hi Wayseer--Feel free to ask.

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller

Your "Pre-Cross" passages ( Jn.5:24 and Jn.11:26 ) were spoken before the same Christ spoke Mk.16:15,16.

Oh, I am certain that in your mind many Words of God eliminate Words of God.

I might even observe that if Jesus said man will live by every Word of God that those who instantly see and seek DEATH from same probably has ill intentions in mind across the board.

I take and believe EVERYTHING Jesus said. BTW, I believe the belief Jesus uses in the above passages includes repentance as well as confessing that Jesus is the Christ. How about you? Will you answer this?

I know scores of believers who will bring other believers in faith into condemnation from just about every angle there is available in their own dark eyes.

For the record I do not blame them as there are other workings in mind that they themselves need to pass away from.

s

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

I see you're up to your same old trick (which doesn't work) of not answering a question. Lets try again: Do you believe the word "believe" in very passages you offered as proof-texts for your position ( Jn.5:25 and Jn.11:26 ) includes repentance? Confession of the Christ? In the course of honorable discussion these are fair questions, and if not, why not?

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller

I see you're up to your same old trick (which doesn't work) of not answering a question. Lets try again: Do you believe the word "believe" in very passages you offered as proof-texts for your position ( Jn.5:25 and Jn.11:26 ) includes repentance? Confession of the Christ? In the course of honorable discussion these are fair questions, and if not, why not?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized

Do you think it is remotely possible to teach water baptism apart from the intentions to possibly burn a believer alive in fire forever if they didn't?

Probably not.

You should face the facts of what you do.

s

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

You will not answer my questions, however, I will answer yours. You ask:"Do you think it is remotely possible to teach water baptism apart from the intention to possibly burn a believer alive in fire forever if they don't? Well, Smaller, I'll give you not what I "THINK" but what your Lord Who will someday be your judge says about it: "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned" Mark 16:15,16. What Jesus said about the matter is vastly more important than what I, you or anyone else THINKS about it. And if you say the above passage means Holy Spirit baptism I remind you that Holy Spirit baptism was a promise and water baptism is a command and the baptism of Mk.16:15,16 is a command, not promise.

Now, answer my questions: Was John under the law of Moses? Did the blood of animal sacrifices remove sin? What does Heb.11:39,40 mean?
God bless

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller

You will not answer my questions, however, I will answer yours. You ask:"Do you think it is remotely possible to teach water baptism apart from the intention to possibly burn a believer alive in fire forever if they don't? Well, Smaller, I'll give you not what I "THINK" but what your Lord Who will someday be your judge says about it: "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned" Mark 16:15,16.

I know full well you seek to burn alive forever those who believe by faith they are saved. No question about that whatsoever from your own lips. That is merely Webb, dragging such into condemnation.

Do you think God would have burned Jesus alive forever in fire if He would not have been baptized by John The Baptist?

lol

s

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

Still you have not answered my questions, so must I go on answering yours? But to your last question, baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and Jesus had NO sin to remit, did He (I think thats a quesion so I'll not expect an answer). But let me ask you another question. Jesus said it was to "fulfill all righteousness", so now I'll ask you what if Jesus had REFUSED to fulfill all righteousness? You probably won't answer that either.

God bless, anyway.

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller

Still you have not answered my questions, so must I go on answering yours? But to your last question, baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and Jesus had NO sin to remit, did He

No He didn't. And even baptized by someone who did NOT have eternal life in your eyes no less.

But let me ask you another question. Jesus said it was to "fulfill all righteousness", so now I'll ask you what if Jesus had REFUSED to fulfill all righteousness? You probably won't answer that either.

Your understanding of baptism remains an external view taught by condemnation. Like many other matters there really is more than one way to understand same and quite well APART from threatening Gods children in faith. But you won't understand that either because you remain locked and loaded to take away their life and that is the only sifter your mind runs through.

s