John the Baptist

[smaller]

Hi Smaller, I'm back again, this time in response to your post 74.

You wrote: "I proposed that salvation by faith in God through His Grace and Mercy is an Old Testament Pre Cross fact." Such is not and never was questioned. Go back and read my posts. The gospel was in the OT in prophetic form but never preached in fullness and in fact until Acts 2. Prospect IS different from REALITY.

Quite beside the point of Old Testament prophets having LIFE upon departure from their flesh body based on their faith in God as Savior.

You wrote: ''In case you're not getting Mr. Webb's picture here it is again: 'In heaven, of course. Why? Because of Jesus' sacrifice." Something must be wrong with your camera for it continues to take a flawed "picture" of what Iunderstand the scripture to teach. But yes, its "because of Jesus' sacrifice." Do you, Smaller believe any, including those of the OT could go to heaven without Jesus' sacrifice? Please answer.

Again and ALL beside the point of Old Testament prophets having LIFE upon departure from their flesh bodies based on their faith in God as Savior.

If you'd like to address this point at some time let me know.

s

 

[mcgyver]

Was he saved?

Interesting question, interesting thread...

Setting aside all the periphery, I'd like to submit the following thoughts for consideration.

First, I believe that we will see John the Baptist in heaven...along with Abraham, Noah, Enoch, and all the others who died so long ago. Both those we see named in the Bible as well as the plethora of those unnamed who died believing in God before Christ's advent, and found mercy with God.

As I read it, it has always been by/through faith that righteousness has been imputed. A casual reading of Hebrews 11 for example reveals that it was by faith that all the OT saints found favor with God. Romans chapters 3 & 4 tells us the same thing...that the key element is faith.

So then, the question is I think: Where were these folks before Christ?

Jesus said in John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

If no one had ascended into heaven, if the New Covenant was "cut" and came into effect at the cross...if prior to the cross the gates of heaven were barred and the veil between men and the Holy of Holies was firmly in place and impenetrable; if it was through Jesus' sacrifice that the fullness of grace came, then what about all the OT saints (to include JTB) ?

I believe that the answer is found both in Jewish theology and Jesus' own words, to wit:

In Jewish theology of the time, as well as in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) we see the concept of the "Abode of the dead" which we know as Hades. Hades is not Hell, Hell is not Hades. In this usage Hades was simply the place where the dead went.

Hades was divided into two spheres: "The place of comfort" (known as "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise"), and the place of suffering. Those who had died in "faith" (for lack of a better term) were in that place of comfort until they also were redeemed by the blood of Christ upon the cross.

This is God's mercy made manifest.

When Christ died upon that cross, the ransom for us was made (Eph 1:7 et.al.) and the gates of heaven were opened so that: We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

This is God's Grace in its fullness, revealed in Christ Jesus.

God and man reconciled.

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

In my last post I suggested you would perhaps prosper by studying the hadean world. Following that post Mcgyver presented an excellent discourse on the subject. I belive as he so wrote. You may want to give it some serious consideration, as in the hadean world (state of the departed dead) that part of man which never dies exists. Thats where Jesus and the thief went that day. Jesus is no longer there, but as I understand it all having departed this life are there to await the resurrection and judgment.

May God bless you in your studies.

 

[mcgyver]

Thank you for your kind words brother Webb,

However as a point of clarification (and one upon which we might disagree), I believe that the "Paradise" side of Hades now stands empty.

I think that all who die in Christ are present with Him...absent from the body, present with the Lord, as Paul wrote.

Ephesians 4:7-9 would seem to address this very thing:

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

As far as the resurrection is concerned, the bodies of the OT saints were in the grave even as their spirits/souls were in Paradise; and are even now with Jesus.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Webb,

Your post to me (#65) is rather lengthy and covers lots of ground. I don't have the time to respond per se. However, should you like to discuss these matters on the one-on-one all you have to do is "ask, and you shall receive.

OK. No worries. I find it hard to find the time to reply to many things as well, so I understand. Never feel pressured to respond to anything I post. I post for everyone who is reading, even those 'non-posters' whom none of us ever see. And never take anything I say personally. If everyone was in agreement here, there would be no purpose for these forums. I may speak out against "doctrines" I believe contradict the Scriptures, but it's never directed at anyone personally.

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller

In my last post I suggested you would perhaps prosper by studying the hadean world. Following that post Mcgyver presented an excellent discourse on the subject. I belive as he so wrote. You may want to give it some serious consideration, as in the hadean world (state of the departed dead) that part of man which never dies exists. Thats where Jesus and the thief went that day. Jesus is no longer there, but as I understand it all having departed this life are there to await the resurrection and judgment.

I thought it was a well considered discourse as well.

And I see you finally squeaked out that Old Testament prophets were never dead, but had LIFE post flesh death AND pre-Cross.

Imagine that?

Jesus could actually be talking about LIVING MEN here, pre Cross?

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

And that is ALL I was getting at from the start Webb. It was never a question of 'when.'

s

 

[smaller]

Thank you for your kind words brother Webb,

However as a point of clarification (and one upon which we might disagree), I believe that the "Paradise" side of Hades now stands empty.

I think that all who die in Christ are present with Him...absent from the body, present with the Lord, as Paul wrote.

Ephesians 4:7-9 would seem to address this very thing:

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

As far as the resurrection is concerned, the bodies of the OT saints were in the grave even as their spirits/souls were in Paradise; and are even now with Jesus.

And to that I would also agree!

I would also point to the matter of The FINAL CONSTRUCT of the Body of Christ as to believers total:

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

There will come an end when all the parts are in place.

Construction is still under way unto which we also call and impel ALL mankind to come in as part of our present role in faith.

s

 

[Webb]

Smaller
You will find it impossible to find where I've ever said on this thread or any other that in effect when one dies he is like the dead dog rover, he is dead all over. To the contrary when you have mentioned Abraham I've ackkowledged God is the God of the living. You must feel you can only win by misrepresenting, and sir, you continually misrepresentme.

 

[smaller]

Smaller
You will find it impossible to find where I've ever said on this thread or any other that in effect when one dies he is like the dead dog rover, he is dead all over.
To the contrary when you have mentioned Abraham I've ackkowledged God is the God of the living. You must feel you can only win by misrepresenting, and sir, you continually misrepresentme.

Webb, you have acknowledged that O.T. Prophets, presumably even including JTB, had LIFE after they departed their flesh.

If you want to settle it at that, I accept that view.

But you also understand that you made the claim that JTB was not saved until the Cross.

I think we can both see that JTB and ALL O.T. saints did in fact have LIFE post flesh death and PRE cross.

s

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

I believe the scriptures teach that at death the body goes to the grave but there is that part of men which never dies and will be in eternity either with God in the heavenly or separated from God in hell.

I believe the righteous dead prior to the cross had the promise of heaven, "BUT AS IT IS, THEY DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, THAT IS A HEAVENLY ONE. THEREFORE GOD IS NOT ASHAMED TO BE CALLED THEIR GOD; FOR HE HAS PREPARED A CITY FOR THEM'', Heb.11:16. Yet, ''AND ALL THESE, HAVING GAINED APPROVAL THROUGH THEIR FAITH, DID NOT RECEIVE WHAT WAS PROMISED, BECAUSE GOD HAD PROVIDED SOMETHING BETTER FOR US, SO THAT APART FROM US THEY SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.'' Because there could be no remission with out the shedding of blood, Heb.9:22, when Jesus went to the cross His blood goes backard to them as well forward to us, thus we all now share in the same blood, the same promise..

 

[Webb]

Hi bro Mcgyver

Perhaps we do have a difference of understanding regarding some parts of the hadean residence. My Christian life has been a constant endeavor to know the truth and I have had to change my understanding at different times through the years. Perhaps this is one of those times. If I am wrong, I want to know.

Perhaps we could study the subject areas where we have misunderstandings via e-mail etc. I'm not always available for immediate response but at leisure we could study together.

God bless,
Webb

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by smaller,

But you also understand that you made the claim that JTB was not saved until the Cross.

I think we can both see that JTB and ALL O.T. saints did in fact have LIFE post flesh death and PRE cross.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming."


So much confusion stems from a lack of understanding the 'order of the ages', the 'two resurrections', the 'firstfruits' (i.e. - elect, chosen).

Will anyone who was still under the Law (i.e. - John the Baptist) take part in the "First Resurrection" as firstfruits? The answer is no. Will they be "saved" at their appointed time? YES......."each one in his own order" (see above).


Why did Jesus say was that the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John?

Matthew 11:11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."


"He that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than" John simply because John will not be in the first resurrection to be in the 'kingdom of God'. John the baptist was under the law of Moses, and no one who is under that law has the "faith of Jesus Christ":


Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Galatians 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith of Jesus Christ came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Ephesians 3:12 "In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him."


"The faith of Christ" did not exist until Christ came in the flesh, and so we are plainly told that the Old Testament prophets were NOT ministering to themselves, "but unto us".


1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT UNTO THEMSELVES, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."




"The prophets... prophesied of the grace that should come unto you", "NOT UNTO THEMSELVES". So the "better thing" of Hebrews 11 is "some better thing for us" and "not unto themselves, but unto us".


Hebrews 11:39 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."


This is all of God and not of ourselves, so we have no reason to become puffed up.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."


It is after the reign of the priests of God and of Christ that all the men and women of the Old Testament, including John the Baptist, will be resurrected to be shown the same mercy we have been shown, and it will be shown to them BY those who were chosen to be in that "blessed and holy first resurrection".


Now you can understand why Jesus said that, "the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John." (Matthew 11:11)

 

[smaller]

So much confusion stems from a lack of understanding the 'order of the ages', the 'two resurrections', the 'firstfruits' (i.e. - elect, chosen).

Will anyone who was still under the Law (i.e. - John the Baptist take part in the "First Resurrection" as firstfruits? The answer is no.

And I would suggest that is idle speculation on your part.

I have no use in stating that JTB was not a part of the Body of Christ via belief through faith or any other O.T. saint for that matter.

You have a dim view of O.T. statements as many do.

Jesus undoubtedly stated these matters were 'in Law' and likely seen and adhered to:

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Paul says no differently here in matters of Law/Prophets (and in other statements as well)

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

As did Peter:

1 Peter 1:10
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

They may not have had the same advantage in time or saw the same way we do, but they assuredly had the GOSPEL presented to them as well:

Hebrews 4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

As did Abraham:

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

They might not have seen the the whole enchilada, but then we all see only in part in any case.

To say none believed by faith in God is a severe misnomer, particularly applied to any of their detriments, and a slur on the 'good report' they made by 'faith.'

Hebrews 11:
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

The entirety of these matters is kept til completion, but that in no way indicates that they are currently 'sleeping in the grave' as I know that is where you want to have those same 'all.'

s

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by smaller,

The entirety of these matters is kept til completion, but that in no way indicates that they are currently 'sleeping in the grave' as I know that is where you want to have those same 'all.'

What saith the Scriptures?

No one, spiritual or otherwise, has ever ascended to heaven:

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."


Yes, we "are seated with Christ in the heavens" even now, but when we die we are dead until the resurrection. And without that resurrection then "they which are asleep in Christ are perished."


Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

We will not exist (i.e. - will not be conscious) after death, until we are resurrected.




When our spirit returns to God, is it conscious? Genesis 2:7 explains the process:

Genesis 2:7 "God formed the man out of soil from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man BECAME a living soul."


The word 'life' is translated from 'nephesh'. God breathed into Adam the breath [ruach] of life [There, that is where the life is!] and Adam became a living nephesh.

Adam was not called a 'living soul' until the breath (spirit) entered his body. A human doesn't have a soul, but he becomes a soul when the breath of life enters his body.

James confirms:

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."




Ecclesiastes confirms this decided lack of activity in the grave:

Ecclesiastes 9:9-10 "For this is your portion in life and in your toil that you are toiling under the sun. All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, for there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom in the unseen where you are going."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."



And more Scripture,

John 5:28-29 - "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice."

Matthew 27:52 - "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose."

Psalms 6:5 - "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks."

Daniel 12:13 - "As for you, go your way till the end. You will sleep, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance. "

John 11:11-14 - "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Mark 5:39 - "And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth."


And of course:

1 Kings 2:10 - So "David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."

2 Chronicles 9:31 - And Solomon slept with his fathers, and he was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 12:16 - And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David: and Abijah his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 24:6 - So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.

And so on, and so on........ ALL of the Kings "SLEPT" with their fathers.




Much confusion comes from 3 passages of Scripture:


{1}. Revelation 6:9-10

• Revelation 6:9-10 - " When he opened the fifth seal, I saw UNDER THE ALTAR the souls of those WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. THEY CRIED OUT in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?'"

Many use this text to demonstrate that when martyrs die for Jesus, they go to Heaven and live under the altar. They say, "John heard them speaking, so these martyrs must be conscious and not unconscious (asleep)." But this is explained here:


Genesis 4:10 - "The Lord said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood CRIES OUT TO ME from the ground."


Did Abel's blood audibly speak? No. The Lord used personification in Genesis 4 to describe the justice that Abel's innocent blood demanded and the same is true in Revelation 6.


The Altar of Burnt Offering is the altar where these souls are crying out in the Fifth Seal. Look at these verses:

Leviticus 8:15 - "Moses slaughtered the bull and took some of the blood, and with his finger he put it on all the horns of the altar to purify the altar. He poured out the rest of the blood AT THE BASE OF THE ALTAR. So he consecrated it to make atonement for it."

Exodus 29:12 "Take some of the bull's blood and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour out the rest of it AT THE BASE OF THE ALTAR."

Leviticus 4:18 "He is to put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting. The rest of the blood he shall pour out AT THE BASE OF THE ALTAR of burnt offering at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting."

Leviticus 9:9 "His sons brought the blood to him, and he dipped his finger into the blood and put it on the horns of the altar; the rest of the blood he poured out at THE BASE OF THE ALTAR."


In the wilderness temple, the blood of animal sacrifices was poured on the base of the Altar of Burnt Offering. The reason their souls are represented as being under the altar is because that is the place where the blood of sacrifices was stored. This has nothing to do with these martyrs "literally speaking" because they are conscious, this is symbolic and a parallel to the services that took place in the wilderness temple with regard to sacrifices.



{2}. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

• 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 - "We are confident, I say, and WILLING RATHER to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

There is a huge difference between Paul saying that he is "willing to be absent from the body and ... present with the Lord," as opposed to making a statement that flatly states that "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord."

Paul did not LIE when he taught us that He, like all saints, would be resurrected from the DEAD, not at his death, but AT THE LAST TRUMP (1 Corinthians 15:52).


Consider what Paul said in the following passages,

1 Corinthians 5:3 "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,"

Colossians 2:5 "For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ."


To be absent from the body in the proper context of what Paul is addressing is to deny the flesh and therefore present with the Lord as we walk in the Spirit. Romans 6:6-8 put it ever so plainly when it said, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him."



John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


This often misquoted passage has nothing to do with the dead passing on to paradise immediately. After all – "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." ALL! (Ecclesiastes 3:20)




{3}. Luke 23:43

• Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The KJV is an unfortunate translation of scripture lending credence to all sorts of unscriptural, contradictory nonsense.

No. Jesus didn't say 'TODAY' you go to paradise, nor did the thief! After Jesus DIED, He was DEAD (a Scriptural and scientific truth denied by most of Christendom). God the Father "raised Jesus 'FROM THE DEAD'" (Galatians 1:1), which is proof that Jesus WAS DEAD! And if He was DEAD in the tomb, he was not LIVING at some other location called "paradise."


Christ did NOT go to "paradise" on that day. Read John 20:17. When Mary saw the resurrected Jesus THREE DAYS after His death, He said to her, "I am not yet ascended to my father". If Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven, how could the thief "be there with Jesus" if Jesus wasn't there yet and hadn't gone.


As originally written, the Greek was WITHOUT PUNCTUATION. The adverb 'SEMERON,' "today," stands between two clauses which read, literally, "truly to you I say" and "with me you will be in paradise."

• The Greek says: "AMEN SOI LEGO SEMERON MET EMOU ESE EN TO PARADESO"
  
• Literally: "Truly to-you I-say today with-me you-will-be in the paradise."

Because we KNOW that Jesus did not ascend to heaven on the day he died on the cross, we know the translators put the "comma" in the wrong place. Why did this happen? It's simple: the translators were guided by the unscriptual concept that the dead enter into their rewards after death. That comma belongs AFTER the word "today":

Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee TODAY, shalt thou be with me in paradise."


Notice how the Greek scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:

"Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."

 

[smaller]

Hi Os

I know the presentation on soul sleep well enough. You know I love your final analysis and on that we agree totally without any questions, disputes or denigrations to each others. (There is enough of that already..)

It does get problematic for us trying to look past the grave. There will be a note of two of baseline understandings that cause our variation in sight on this matter.

Would I consider it critical? Uh, no. Not worth much hub bub other than to rub rub and that's kind of fun 'only' when it produces a beneficial shine.

We all desire to put on our eternal habitation. It's only a question of when as you have prior noted herein.

The best measure I can muster to any is life.

s

 

[dan b]

Was he saved?

Saved? Which resurrection are you referrring to?

 

[dan b]