Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[chessman]

It's pretty hard to make a claim that an Apostle wasn't a believer.

Not really, given four Biblical facts:

1) Jesus hadn't risen yet when Peter spoke for Judas' 'belief'.
2) None of the 12 had been indwelt by the Holy Spirit yet. It is the Holy Spirit that leads people (including Apostles) to truly believe.
3) Judas was said by Jesus to be a devil well before Satan entered Judas
4) And the kicker:

Luke 18:31-34 (LEB) And taking aside the twelve, he said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all the things that are written by the prophets with reference to the Son of Man will be accomplished. For he will be handed over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and mistreated and spit on, and after flogging him they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise.” And they understood none of these things, and this saying was concealed from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.

​

 

[smaller]

Not really, given four Biblical facts:

1) Jesus had risen yet when Peter spoke for Judas' 'belief'.
2) None of the 12 had been indwelt by the Holy Spirit yet. It is the Holy Spirit that leads people (including Apostles) to truly believe.
3) Judas was said by Jesus to be a devil well before Satan entered Judas
4) And the kicker:

Luke 18:31-34 (LEB) And taking aside the twelve, he said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all the things that are written by the prophets with reference to the Son of Man will be accomplished. For he will be handed over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and mistreated and spit on, and after flogging him they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise.” And they understood none of these things, and this saying was concealed from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.
​

The points you raise an not necessarily true. What Peter said about Judas in Acts is TRUE. Judas was an apostle, called by specific intents and purposes by God Himself. It can just as easily be said of Judas that Judas (and Satan) performed EXACTLY the Divine Role for which he, Judas, was intended to perform and that this was in fact GODS OWN WILL being carried out, as Acts 4:26-28 shows us. Was it then the will of Judas, the will of Satan or GODS WILL that this betrayal transpired? I'd have to weigh in with Peter on this one. It was GODS WILL for Jesus Christ to be killed and therefore ALSO Gods Will that the players in the drama were specifically turned against Jesus BY THE WILL OF GOD. Exactly as proposed and purposed by Acts 4:26-28 statement of FACT.

We also know that Jesus 'gave' them, including Judas, power and authority over the adversaries, the devils, and healing power, when the 12 were sent out. Matt. 10:1, Mark 6:7, Luke 9:1.

Notions that the Holy Ghost was NOT operational prior to Jesus Ressurection are NOT true. The Holy Ghost functioned in the birth of Christ. Matt. 1:18-20 for example. The Holy Ghost also functioned in the O.T. Mark 12:36 for specific example, speaking through David, and also speaking from Esias noted in Acts 25:28. And was also functioning in John the Baptist from his mothers womb. Luke 1:15. Zacharias also prophesied via the Holy Ghost, as did others (Luke 2:25).

We also know the Holy Ghost was functioning in Israel LONG prior to Jesus Resurrection from Stephen's Holy Ghost testimony in Acts 7:51.

So to say that the power given them, the 12 inclusive of Judas was NOT from the Holy Ghost is not necessarily true at all.

We also know that Judas, yes JUDAS, was sent out as A SHEEP by Jesus:

Matt. 10:
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Your statement number 3 is the most disconcerting, that you would think any human is A DEVIL. That is simply not a true statement.

We know this about Satan. That where The Word is sown, SATAN enters the heart to steal. Mark 4:15. There is no reason whatsoever to believe this did NOT happen to ALL the disciples. And we are given very specific examples with Judas and with Peter that it DID happen.

Knowing, openly, that the events of Judas were not just about Judas, but also about Satan IN Judas, it is quite entirely LAME to look only at Judas. Just as it is equally lame not to factor that the death of Jesus was GODS OWN PLAN and that Judas and Satan fulfilled their roles to do exactly that.

There is also ample cause NOT to cast only adverse judgment on Judas. Jesus didn't LOSE any sheep, donchaknow?

 

[chessman]

Your statement number 3 is the most disconcerting, that you would think any human is A DEVIL. That is simply not a true statement.

John 6:70 (NASB) Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”​

[edited personal comment]

 

[MarkT]

John didn't use the past tense. There is no such Greek tense. He used the aorist, which indicates believing in a point in time.


I agree that there was no point in your saying it.


So your view is that Jesus and John described the same Jews quite differently. ok

[QUOT3E] The Jews took up stones to throw at him.
The unbelieving ones.

If the Jews of v.30 later on in the discussion ceased to believe in Him, why didn't John make that point? would have been easy enough.

The point of the passage is that while Jesus was addressing a crowd of unbelieving Jews, some (many) in fact did believe in Him. But it was the unbelieving Jews who reacted (v.33) to what Jesus told the believing Jews in v.32.

That's the only way to make any sense of the passage.

Your view has believing Jews being described as the devil's children and as unbelievers. How does that make sense?

The Jews who had believed in him did not understand what he said. That's the point. Jesus said, "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil." John 8:43-44

So when you read they 'had believed in him', it doesn't necessarily mean they were true believers in his word. You have to remember they didn't understand. And it doesn't mean they were saved either. They didn't understand. The word fell on the hard path.

Case in point. Jesus said, "one of you is a devil" and "You are not all clean." Do you understand Judas was a devil? One of the twelve was a devil and Jesus knew it and Jesus said it was so that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Now you're arguing a person cannot be a devil. John doesn't say Satan entered into the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus, yet Jesus said, You are of your father the devil. So it is entirely irrelevant that Satan entered Judas. It's not why Jesus said Judas was a devil. Judas was the devil's seed, a son of the evil one. The Jews who wanted to kill Jesus were devils. The scribes and the Pharisees were devils. They were not of God.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

 

[atpollard]

I don't know, maybe I am slow or something.

I keep reading this verse ping pong about Judas being a literal devil or the verse being metaphorical and everyone seems to ignore the point that literal or metaphorical, the accusation was made right in the middle of the period of time when Judas was walking with Jesus as an Apostle.

How can someone simultaneously be "saved" (as the Title of this thread asks) or a "believer" as the OP states and a Spirit filled Apostle, while simultaneously being described by Jesus as a devil (literal or metaphorical)?

There seems to be a very fundamental difference between Jesus rebuking Peter as 'Satan' for opposing the will of God that the Christ should die, ( Matthew 16:23 ) and Judas being singled out as an exception to those that "believe" and called a devil (even metaphorically) by Jesus. What was Judas doing when Jesus called him a devil? ( John 6:70 ) Just following.

I may be ignorant, but I can see the forest for the trees.
(Some others may be standing too close).

 

[FreeGrace]

The Jews who had believed in him did not understand what he said.

Since John said that "many Jews beileved in Him", I'm sure they believed that He was the Messiah, since that was John's whole point in writing his gospel, per 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. NIV

For John to say that someone "put their faith in Him" or "believed in Him" was to say that someone got saved.

That's the point. Jesus said, "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil." John 8:43-44

Once again I will point out that it was the unbelieving Jews who responded to what Jesus said to the new believers, beginning in v.33. And Jesus asked the unbelieving Jews why they didn't understand what He said.

In fact, John recorded NOTHING of what any new believer said in the passage. Jesus spoke to them, but they didn't respond. It was the "they", being the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees who responded to what Jesus said to the new believers.

So when you read they 'had believed in him', it doesn't necessarily mean they were true believers in his word.

That is exactly what it means. They believed in Him for eternal life. And they were saved as a result.

You have to remember they didn't understand.

You have to remember that it was the unbelieving Jews who reacted to what Jesus said to the new believers.

And it doesn't mean they were saved either.

Yes it does. Acts 16:31 says so.

They didn't understand.

Yes, the new believers did understand. And believed in Him. What does "put their faith in Him" mean to you?

The word fell on the hard path.

Let's not force a parable into an actual event.

Case in point. Jesus said, "one of you is a devil" and "You are not all clean." Do you understand Judas was a devil? One of the twelve was a devil and Jesus knew it and Jesus said it was so that the scripture might be fulfilled.

What does this have to do with John 8:12ff?

Now you're arguing a person cannot be a devil.

I've said nothing about devils. Please focus on the issue of John 8.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

These were the unbelieving Jews. Not the new believers.

 

[MarkT]

Since John said that "many Jews beileved in Him", I'm sure they believed that He was the Messiah, since that was John's whole point in writing his gospel, per 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. NIV

For John to say that someone "put their faith in Him" or "believed in Him" was to say that someone got saved.

No. You're adding things to John's testimony. John didn't say the Jews who had believed in Jesus were saved.

Once again I will point out that it was the unbelieving Jews who responded to what Jesus said to the new believers, beginning in v.33. And Jesus asked the unbelieving Jews why they didn't understand what He said.

The truth is the Jews who had believed in him said, 'We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How is it that you say, "You will be made free?"

In fact, John recorded NOTHING of what any new believer said in the passage. Jesus spoke to them, but they didn't respond. It was the "they", being the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees who responded to what Jesus said to the new believers.

The Jews who had believed in him answered, but you can't believe it.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

 

[JLB]

I don't know, maybe I am slow or something.

I keep reading this verse ping pong about Judas being a literal devil or the verse being metaphorical and everyone seems to ignore the point that literal or metaphorical, the accusation was made right in the middle of the period of time when Judas was walking with Jesus as an Apostle.

How can someone simultaneously be "saved" (as the Title of this thread asks) or a "believer" as the OP states and a Spirit filled Apostle, while simultaneously being described by Jesus as a devil (literal or metaphorical)?

There seems to be a very fundamental difference between Jesus rebuking Peter as 'Satan' for opposing the will of God that the Christ should die, ( Matthew 16:23 ) and Judas being singled out as an exception to those that "believe" and called a devil (even metaphorically) by Jesus. What was Judas doing when Jesus called him a devil? ( John 6:70 ) Just following.

I may be ignorant, but I can see the forest for the trees.
(Some others may be standing too close).

Jesus taught us that there would be those who believe for a while, then fall away.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Does it seem impossible to you, that Judas Iscariot, "believed for a while", then in a time of temptation, fell away?


Does it seem possible to you, that a person could hear the call of Jesus, and follow Him for 3 1/2 years, then be promoted to Apostle, and then empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cast devils, while all the while, never believing in Jesus Christ?


The bible says, these signs follow those who believe... In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;...


If a person who walked with Jesus for 3 1/2 years and demonstrated all these these things, doesn't qualify as believing, then please share with us what in your opinion does qualify as a person who "believes"?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

No. You're adding things to John's testimony. John didn't say the Jews who had believed in Jesus were saved.

Why would he need to, or have to? Consider some verses on how one is saved:
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

The truth is the Jews who had believed in him said, 'We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How is it that you say, "You will be made free?"

No, that erroneous comment came from the "they", which indicates unbelieving Jews. I've already noted all the verses where the word "they" and "them" was used to indicate unbelieving Jews.

There is no evidence that what was said in v.33 came from the new believers.

In fact, we KNOW that cannot be, because the conversation leads to Jesus telling them that they did NOT believe (v.45), just the opposite of how John described those in v.30 and 31.

The Jews who had believed in him answered, but you can't believe it.

I don't believe that because it makes no sense.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Right. The unbelieving Jews.

 

[GodsGrace]

Judas chose of his own freewill to betray Jesus, which was foreseen by God from the beginning, and foretold in the scriptures.

I don't see where God chose Judas to betray Jesus, but rather Judas chose to betray Jesus.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12


Like the parable of the lost sheep, and the prodigal son, the scripture teaches us that if something is lost, it first belonged to you, then became lost.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Peter repented, meaning he turned back to the Lord.
• Judas did not.

Both were His sheep, then became lost, one returned, the other did not.


Likewise the prodigal son, was not "chosen" to forsake his father, but chose of his own freewill to leave his father's house for the world.


He became "lost", and dead.

Thankfully he returned, of his own freewill, and like Peter was received again, and restored.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32



JLB

Hi JLB,

I haven't been following along but this just came up now.
This question of Judas having been chosen to betray Jesus is a very interesting one.
I DO believe that in some cases God can take away our free will because of plans He has for us.

I liken Judas to Mary.
Luke 1:28-31
Luke 1:31

That doesn't sound like a request to me. I can't remember if it was the Angel Gabriel, but no doubt it was since he had an important message to announce to Mary.

God chose Mary from the beginning of time and prepared her for her mission.
This would be a different thread.
I'm just saying that I see both Judas and Mary (and even Pharaoh's hard heart) as being in this "catagory" of being chosen.

I believe Judas was meant and born to betray Jesus.
In the scripture you post in the O.P.,
Acts 1:16 states that the scriptures HAD to be fulfilled. It doesn't say Judas fulfilled the scriptures, which I understand to be different.

It is also not certain if he was saved at the end.
We know for sure that Peter was sorry for lying about knowing Jesus and that in the end he did repent and return to Him.
We don't really know what was in Judas' heart as he walked to that tree to hang himself or to that wall to throw himself down in that field.
He apparently was so sorry about what he did that he desired to die because he could not accept what he had done.
We like to say that he did not trust in the Lord and killed himself instead. Can we be sure of this? Who can know what is in a man's heart?

Was he ever saved? Maybe not. He was too concerned with the finances of the ministry, to concerned with worldly things and did not
understand Jesus spiritually. He saw Him as a man. If Jesus is just a man to us, we cannot be saved.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

I don't know, maybe I am slow or something.

I keep reading this verse ping pong about Judas being a literal devil or the verse being metaphorical and everyone seems to ignore the point that literal or metaphorical, the accusation was made right in the middle of the period of time when Judas was walking with Jesus as an Apostle.

Scripture explains it thusly: Mark 4:15, which happened to Judas. And the other disciples as well, Peter in particular.

When scripture looks at any person this is how scripture sees them:

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Do you see that there are TWO parties in the above? The person and the "god of this world" blinding them? It's the same sight that Jesus gives us in Mark 4:15.

Here it is again:

Eph. 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Again, TWO parties present in the above. NOT, ever, just one person.

IF we walk with in the Light, in the factual disclosures of Jesus, we will see everyone in the same way.

And in Mark 4:15 there are many vital lessons. Primarily, that where the Word is sown, which Word Jesus was, Satan is "moved" into action, in the hearts of mankind, to RESIST, to STEAL, to BLIND, to DESTROY and to KILL. John 10:10.

It is not just MAN that is moved by the Word of God.

There is no way possible that people are devils. Devils are not seen. They are in the unseen realm. They are "disobedient spirits." And they are not humans. Anyone who thinks humans are devils are being deceived/blinded by devils themselves.

Understanding scripture, hearing the Word, requires us to factor TWO parties in man. Man and the "god of this world," the "prince of the power of the air." Not just the person.

Paul from Jesus' Own Mouth, post resurrection was given the same quest, to "divide" man from devils by OPENING THEIR EYES to the fact that they are slaves to the darkness of Satan. Acts 26:18.

Paul tells US as believers that we also have 'works of darkness' to cast off. Romans 13:12. Our own sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

To "judge" Judas accurately requires and demands us to see the working of the ADVERSARY in his heart, not Judas as his own adversary. Satan "entered" Judas. This demands us to see Judas and SATAN in his heart as two different parties.

John 13:2
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

Yet even in this action, we also need to also understand that it was the Divine and Pre Planned Will and Purpose of God Himself for that action to transpire. Acts 4:26-28.

Believers who think people are devils need to take a serious look at what is transpiring in themselves. They are being blinded by that same bad actor in their heart. Anyone who thinks believers can't be internally influenced by Satan, the devil(s) need only to look to Paul to see that it's a reality, even for an Apostle: 2 Cor. 12:7. We are to reign OVER that working, but we are not "released" from the battle that transpires. Sin indwelling our flesh, evil present with us, IS a foreign occupation of our flesh and is the adverse working of spiritual disobedience therein. Romans 7:17-21. Gal. 5:17.

How can someone simultaneously be "saved" (as the Title of this thread asks) or a "believer" as the OP states and a Spirit filled Apostle, while simultaneously being described by Jesus as a devil (literal or metaphorical)?

See the above. Yes, we still engage battles with our spiritual adversary, INTERNALLY, post salvation. That battle is "internal." No one becomes "sinless" after salvation and sin is of the devil. Romans 7:7-13, Eph. 6:11-12, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8.

There seems to be a very fundamental difference between Jesus rebuking Peter as 'Satan' for opposing the will of God that the Christ should die, ( Matthew 16:23 ) and Judas being singled out as an exception to those that "believe" and called a devil (even metaphorically) by Jesus.

There is no difference. It was SATAN in both men. NOT those men as Satan.

What was Judas doing when Jesus called him a devil? ( John 6:70 ) Just following.

I may be ignorant, but I can see the forest for the trees.
(Some others may be standing too close).

I'd call your sight a fundamental flaw in understanding, but sadly, a very common one. Jesus didn't come to "convert" devil humans. He came to save people FROM the spiritual captivity of Satan/devils.

If you want further insight into the construct of mankind and the spirit of disobedience, Paul gives us a great primer in Romans 9:18-24, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32 and repeats the lesson in 2 Tim. 2:20-21.

What do we know about Judas?

We know for no uncertain fact that Judas was called by God in Christ to be not only a disciple, but an Apostle. Being an Apostle comes with "signs" of the power that God has given them. Matt. 10 digs into this matter, showing that Judas was first called as a disciple, vs. 1, and then specifically called and sent out with directions by Jesus as an Apostle, vs. 2 and vs. 5-14. Given power from Jesus to do the works of an Apostle, which are shown in vs. 5-14.

And how did Jesus send Judas:

Matt. 10:
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

That's right. Jesus saw and claimed Judas as A SHEEP. But if we read on in that, we won't see just a sheep.

Sheep do not turn into DEVILS.

If you recognize the Divine Principle of Mark 4:15, you'll see "how" Satan got into the heart of both Judas and Peter, and the balance of the Apostles were not an exception either. Their own spiritual blindness is delineated and shown many times in many ways throughout the Gospels. And that blindness was courtesy of the adversary working on them, blinding their minds, just as it is for ALL. This is also why we see only in part and as through glass, DARKLY. It's also why the churches are pathetically divided and in constant bickering.

 

[smaller]

John 6:70 (NASB) Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”​

[edited personal comment]

People are not devils. It's a very sad sight to see a few of you here that don't know the basic difference between Satan and humans. And that speaks to the spiritual blindness imposed by Satan. Mark 4:15, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

Satan is an adverse spirit of disobedience. Not a human.

 

[WIP]

My apologies to those who are inconvenienced but I have to close this thread for a bit to do some cleaning up before things go too far south.

 

[WIP]

Reopening this thread. This is not an OSAS vs nonOSAS discussion. That topic has been beaten over and over and every time it has been discussed, the threads end up getting shut down because we can't seem to behave in a Christ-like manner. We don't need another one of those. Stick to the topic!

 

[MarkT]

Jesus was speaking to Peter.

Peter didn't want Jesus to be taken and murdered.

Satan, on the other hand, working in concert with the Chief Priest's and Pharisee's, did want Jesus to be Murdered.


Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. Luke 22:1-4


Why would Satan, whom you allege was speaking through Peter, want to stop Jesus from being killed, when all along, he wanted Jesus killed?


Jesus was addressing Peter, who didn't want Jesus to be killed... But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”



Peter was opposing the will of God for Jesus.




JLB

Good question.

Satan tempted Peter to say what he said to rebuke Jesus. Satan being the father of all lies suggested Jesus would not be killed. Peter said, 'This will not happen to you'. We know this was a lie and this lie came out of Peter's mouth.
Matthew 16:22
And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”

The lie came out of Peter's (Rock) mouth. It can be seen as an attack on the church Peter being the Rock. It can be seen as Peter calling Jesus a liar. Or falling away from the truth. Or Peter being sifted by Satan. Either way Satan tempted Peter, so that's why Jesus rebuked Satan.

 

[MarkT]

Re. Judas the betrayer

It's out of necessity that the betrayer, Judas, would need to be someone close to the one he betrayed, Jesus. So out of necessity, to fulfill the scripture, Jesus chose Judas and made him an apostle; he loved him, he treated him like an apostle, he put him in charge of the money box. Still Judas was a devil and a thief according to John 12:4-6 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was to betray him), said, 5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it.

 

[JLB]

Good question.

Satan tempted Peter to say what he said to rebuke Jesus. Satan being the father of all lies suggested Jesus would not be killed. Peter said, 'This will not happen to you'. We know this was a lie and this lie came out of Peter's mouth.
Matthew 16:22
And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”

The lie came out of Peter's (Rock) mouth. It can be seen as an attack on the church Peter being the Rock. It can be seen as Peter calling Jesus a liar. Or falling away from the truth. Or Peter being sifted by Satan. Either way Satan tempted Peter, so that's why Jesus rebuked Satan.

Makes no sense.

Jesus said to Peter. That's what the scripture says, plainly.
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan!

• Peter, himself, was praised, when he spoke forth what God the Father, revealed to him about Jesus.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

• Peter was rebuked, when he spoke from his human reasoning and emotional perspective, about Jesus's death.

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

• In each case, Peter was held accountable for the words he spoke, not God the Father, and not Satan. Peter himself was addressed.

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ. 21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day. 22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:17-23




JLB

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,

I haven't been following along but this just came up now.
This question of Judas having been chosen to betray Jesus is a very interesting one.
I DO believe that in some cases God can take away our free will because of plans He has for us.

I liken Judas to Mary.
Luke 1:28-31
Luke 1:31

38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
Luke 1:38

The key: Let it be to me according to your word.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
Luke 1:38

The key: Let it be to me according to your word.

JLB

Hi JLB
We teach religion kids about how Mary said "yes!" and did the will of God.
Could she have said No?
I don't think so.
Genesis 3:15
Isaiah 7:14

But this is derailing this thread.

I was thinking about Judas all afternoon.
I still say we can't be sure, but it seems to me that if he were saved in the end,
he would have had faith and reassurance in Jesus and he would not have
killed himself.

He most probably would have felt the forgiveness and love of God and would
have forgiven himself as God would also have if Judas had turned to Him.


Wondering

 

[MarkT]

People are not devils. It's a very sad sight to see a few of you here that don't know the basic difference between Satan and humans. And that speaks to the spiritual blindness imposed by Satan. Mark 4:15, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

Satan is an adverse spirit of disobedience. Not a human.

A son of Satan is by definition a devil. ie. the Devil's seed. Without exception Jesus was talking to or about people when he said, 'You are of your father the devil." John 8:44, and "one of you is a devil." He certainly wasn't talking to Satan. Guess what Satan, you're the Devil. No kidding.