Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[smaller]

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” This is what Jesus said speaking of Judas.

When readers see only Judas it's easy to miss the real (unseen) culprit.

I see Jesus commanding it to happen:

John 13:
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Do you think Jesus demanded this betrayal by that dictate? I do. It was Gods Will:

Matt. 16:
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Satan, speaking through Peter even tried to dissuade Jesus from performing the Will of God, and was rebuked for it, oddly enough. Why would Satan do this? Because it was the opposite of Gods Will, and THAT is one the role that Satan fulfills, beside betrayal. But Jesus, with and by COMMAND over Satan, IN Judas, compelled him to PERFORM.

Sometimes these things are not as easy as they appear on the surface analysis of only a man, devoid of the working of God and the will of Satan. It's a much more interesting arrangement than just looking at Judas.

 

[smaller]

Just one question, when Peter said WE believe, what was the point of saying ONE OF YOU is a devil?

We should be led to understand a few things about the disciples/Apostles.

One, they all had sin and were sinners, just like everyone else. 1 John 1:8. Their sins, including the sins of JUDAS are no different than our own, as Paul teaches in Romans 3:9 and Gal. 3:22.

The second thing we should realize is that sin is "of the DEVIL." 1 John 3:8. Was Judas' sin of betrayal "of the DEVIL?" Assuredly so. Satan entered Judas at 2 points, one after Mary's breaking the expensive oil and pouring on Jesus' Feet, and a second time at the last supper, where Jesus COMMANDED the betrayal to take place.

The standout scriptural principle for all of these matters is found in Jesus' fact of Mark 4:15, and this happened to ALL of the disciples. Long before they ever met Jesus.

From everything you posted, shouldn't Jesus have said 'all of you are Devils' since all still struggle post-salvation.

People are not devils. Why is it this is so difficult for you to get a hold of? Satan/devils is/are wicked unseen resisting disobedient SPIRITs. Not human beings. Eph. 2:2. Eph. 6:11-12.

Please do not repeat again that people are not literal Devils, I get it,

No, you don't get it. You keep repeating that canard, expecting it to stick.

but your explanation renders Jesus words meaningless within the context. Help me understand what you think Jesus did mean rather than what he did not mean.

That's what you think you hear because you are certainly not used to engaging the scriptures how THE WORD sees mankind. The Word does not see only mankind. The Word sees mankind SOLD under the 'god of this world,' the 'prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience.' Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 12:7, Romans 9:18-24, etc etc.

There is a very REAL blinding power that is in force, IN THE FLESH, that "resists" the sights above. When scripture engages us it engages TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES. Man and DEVIL. The Word doesn't see "just a person."

You're also not used to anyone trying to DEFEND Judas, in the LIGHT of 2 Cor. 5:19, Romans 11:25-31 for examples, or in compliance with Luke 6:37.

 

[smaller]

I see. So are you a follower of Judas?

No, I am a believer in this DICTATE from God in Christ.

2 Cor. 5:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

When discussing adverse judgment, I'm going to go directly to where it belongs. Satan and his messengers are meant to be JUDGED, by US.

 

[MarkT]

When readers see only Judas it's easy to miss the real (unseen) culprit.

I see Jesus commanding it to happen:

John 13:
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Do you think Jesus demanded this betrayal by that dictate? I do. It was Gods Will:

Matt. 16:
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Satan, speaking through Peter even tried to dissuade Jesus from performing the Will of God, and was rebuked for it, oddly enough. Why would Satan do this? Because it was the opposite of Gods Will, and THAT is one the role that Satan fulfills, beside betrayal. But Jesus, with and by COMMAND over Satan, IN Judas, compelled him to PERFORM.

Sometimes these things are not as easy as they appear on the surface analysis of only a man, devoid of the working of God and the will of Satan. It's a much more interesting arrangement than just looking at Judas.

Jesus did not command Judas to betray him. Rather Jesus knew what Judas was going to do, and he said, What you are going to do, do quickly.

I can agree with you on one thing. Jesus did our Father's will, and it was our Father's will that Jesus should be crucified for us.

Also regarding Peter, I can agree that Satan tried to tempt Jesus. But the way I see it, our Father declared all these things and he did them and so it came to pass.
Isaiah 48:3
“The former things I declared of old, they went forth from my mouth and I made them known; then suddenly I did them and they came to pass.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jesus did not command Judas to betray him. Rather Jesus knew what Judas was going to do, and he said, What you are going to do, do quickly.

Right.
Judas chose to betray Jesus.
The fact that God knew what Judas would do from before the beginning does not change the fact that it was Judas' decision and the Judas bears the full responsibility of his choice and action.
And I doubt that Satan possessed Peter when Peter tried to dissuade Jesus from allowing himself to be killed and that Jesus cast Satan out of Peter by saying "Get thee behind me Satan!"
All that stuff makes the Gospel sound like a B movie starring Nicholas Cage and Vin Diesel.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I'll be straight with you, no games. Yes, it does seem possible. It seems highly Improbable in light of other scriptures that Jesus would lose none of those that the Father gave to him, or the so called Golden chain that suggests that these decisions predate the founding of the world, but I do not view it as impossible. The camel that everyone seems willing to swallow while straining at the gnat of was Judas a literal devil or not, is that at the moment that Peter said "WE" believe ... the apparent cornerstone of this claim about Judas 'belief', Jesus indicates he was already following, as an apostle, and not believing. Jesus was not correcting some flaw in Judas view of events, Jesus appears to have been marking Judas ... AT THAT MOMENT ... as not one of Jesus' own, but as a child of the devil.

I am also slightly confused about your use of the phrase "Judas believed". Believed what? Clearly he could not have believed the full gospel of a risen Christ who died to forgive our sins, those events had not yet come to pass. You also make a distinction between "believed" and "saved" that I admit to having trouble following. It seems like a distinction without a difference.

We could go on to address subtleties and nuances, but to what end when we can't even communicate fully on such essential terms as believe and saved and chosen.



No, not really. Which is OK, because there are so many nits to pick with this statement:
1. "follow Him for 3 1/2 years" ... Follow in what sense? For 3.5 years Judas traveled with Christ and stole from the community purse - Yeah, I can easily believe that. Believe and trust in Jesus for 3.5 years - no, by the time some of the good time followers were starting to turn away and Jesus put the question to Peter "Will you go, too?", Judas had stopped being a child of God and a believer and was of his father the devil. I personally suspect that except for his vested financial interest, Judas might have left with the others.
2. What Gospel did Judas preach? I ask because most of the good news was not revealed until after he was dead. It seems to me that Judas message was similar to that of John the Baptist. Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is here and the Messiah has arrived. However, I have no idea if Judas understood the message of a spiritual Christ or was simply following the heir of David.
3. The healing of the sick and casting out of devils were acts counterfeited by false holy men, warned against as good works of 'workers of iniquity' whom Jesus 'never knew' (according to the parables), and which the antichrist will do to deceive many. They all suggest that Judas may have believed, but do not irrefutably prove that he did.
4. Did Judas raise the dead? If he did not, then does that indicate that he was not an Apostle? You claim that Judas raising the dead is proof of his belief, could you point me to the verse. I missed it.

So what does 'believe in Jesus' mean as you use the phrase. A cliche, but Satan believes that Jesus exists and is the son of God, does that make Satan a 'believer'?

You seem to dance around the claim that Judas was saved, but lost his salvation, yet you are careful in your wording to say 'believe' and not 'saved'. The careful distinction confuses me.


Did he? Did Judas cast out demons? I know the Apostles collectively went out in pairs and collectively they performed many miracles in Jesus' name, but is there any real evidence that Judas, personally, performed any of those miracles? Did any of the Apostles speak in new tongues prior to Judas death? If not then how is this not then a sign that they did not yet believe, since the promised signs had not manifested.


As I have noted, Judas did not demonstrate all of these things. Other than being chosen and "sent" by Jesus himself (the definition of Apostle) Judas may have done NONE of the things indicating belief.

This is not to say that I claim the bible teaches that Judas never believed any of what Jesus said, or that he always followed out of evil motives, or even that Judas did not perform miracles in Jesus name. What I claim is that I have no irrefutable evidence one way or the other, so the question remains open. I cannot prove Judas did believe once, and I cannot prove that Judas never believed.

I can prove that Judas was not drawn to the Son by the Father as one of those chosen before the foundation of the world, to be sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing his inheritance and whom Jesus will surely keep and raise up at the last day. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. ( 1 John 2:19 )


I will gladly try to share my opinion of what qualifies as someone who "believes" as soon as I can understand what it is that you mean by believe (assuming that it is not a regenerated heart and a deposit of the Holy Spirit).

I apologize for the lack of specific verses in this post, but the same verses have been quoted a dozen times already.
If anything I wrote is unclear as to which previously posted verse it refers to, just ask and I will gladly clarify.

hello atpollard, dirtfarmer here

Truthful and good post

 

[MarkT]

Right.
Judas chose to betray Jesus.
The fact that God knew what Judas would do from before the beginning does not change the fact that it was Judas' decision and the Judas bears the full responsibility of his choice and action.
And I doubt that Satan possessed Peter when Peter tried to dissuade Jesus from allowing himself to be killed and that Jesus cast Satan out of Peter by saying "Get thee behind me Satan!"
All that stuff makes the Gospel sound like a B movie starring Nicholas Cage and Vin Diesel.

I don't know what you mean by Judas chose to betray Jesus. Judas was a devil and Jesus chose him. If it is God's will, who can resist?
Proverbs 16:9
A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

I think we can say Satan caused Peter to disbelieve Jesus. So, was it so Peter would fail? Luke tells us Satan demanded to have Peter, that he might sift him like wheat. Luke 22:31 Anyways, according to Mt. 16:23 Jesus rebuked Satan.

 

[JLB]

Yes. Peter was rebuked at the same time. But Jesus said 'Get behind me Satan' which reveals Satan. So it was Satan who tempted Peter.

That's an unbiblical conclusion based on your opinion.

Satan was the one who wanted Jesus to be killed, as demonstrated by him entering Judas to betray Jesus, for the purpose of becoming a guide to those who were to arrest Him, and crucify Him.

It was Peter who had selfish motives for not wanting Jesus to be crucified.

Read the words of Jesus.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


...for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


Peter didn't want to lose his place of prestige, in the leadership of the King of Israel.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I still say we can't be sure, but it seems to me that if he were saved in the end,
he would have had faith and reassurance in Jesus and he would not have
killed himself.

He wasn't saved in the end, that's just it.

He believed for a while, then fell away, and ended up betraying the Lord Jesus.


Just like the example Jesus gave us.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Judas Iscariot believed for a while, and followed Jesus just like the other disciples, and was promoted to Apostle, just like the others, and was empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, just like the others.


What he didn't do like the others, is to continue to believe, and follow Jesus, steadfast to the end.

Enduring to the end.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14


If we betray another Christian, the way Judas did, are we betraying the Lord Himself?

Based on the following scriptures, the answer is yes.

And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:40

and again

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
Acts 9:3-5



JLB

 

[JLB]

I am also slightly confused about your use of the phrase "Judas believed". Believed what?

Believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
John 6:67-69


JLB

 

[smaller]

Jesus did not command Judas to betray him.

Of course Jesus commanded it to happen. No different than Jesus commanding that Peter would deny Him 3 times. Whenever God speaks a prophetic Word of any sort, IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. There is no "choice" available. What happened with Judas was already predetermined to transpire from Psalm 41 and verified by Acts 4:26-28. Just as much predetermined as the coming of God in flesh.

Rather Jesus knew what Judas was going to do, and he said, What you are going to do, do quickly.

Jesus didn't just know. God Himself smote the Shepherd by Divine Pre Planned Intentions. None of the events of Christ were random accidental events caused by a bunch of "free willers" who's random decisions just happened to coincide bringing about the Exact and Perfect Plan of God in Christ.

I can agree with you on one thing. Jesus did our Father's will, and it was our Father's will that Jesus should be crucified for us.

It was not just Jesus who was in Gods Perfect Will and Plan. All of the others were moved by God as well, even in their resistance to God. No different than God hardening Pharaoh or arousing a host of enemies toward Israel.

The notions that anything written of in the Bible is a recording or random events caused by freewillers does not and can not hold scriptural water. It is every jot and title a recording of the cause and continual interactions of God Himself within His Own creation. John 5:39. History in Biblical terms is HIStory. He being The Author of same. And He's still writing. 2 Cor. 3:3, Heb. 4:12.

Also regarding Peter, I can agree that Satan tried to tempt Jesus.

All of Satan's actions are compelled to be made. Where the Word is sown Satan has "no choice" but to "resist." That's how God made that character to perform. Satan dances in opposition to Gods Word, Work and Ways like a puppet on a string. Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13, 1 Cor. 15:56. If anyone studies how this works they'd see it in real time, themselves, personally. Romans 7:7-25, 1 Cor. 15:56. Satan is entirely "predictable" according to the ways he is compelled to make in adverse reactions to Gods Words.

But the way I see it, our Father declared all these things and he did them and so it came to pass.

Isaiah 48:3
“The former things I declared of old, they went forth from my mouth and I made them known; then suddenly I did them and they came to pass.

Of course that's the way it was, and STILL is. God Himself is with us in all things, even planning our own steps.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Would I afford the same sight to Judas? Absolutely. God PLANNED that Judas should betray Him. Judas was "ordained" for every step of his resisting ways as well. And Judas was not "alone" in that event. To see only Judas is to miss the obvious bad actor in the event who was IN Judas, Satan. There is no way to reasonably "exclude" Satan's activities IN Judas in any dissection of Judas' actions, or any of the other players in the Passion for that matter.

We ought to recognize the much larger Divine Principle that God Himself put into play in Israel. This Divine Principle is STILL at work in the world today.

Mark 4:15.

When we look at ANYONE in the Bible, other than Jesus, we should not be dissecting any of those matters apart from the fact of Mark 4:15. And to SEE this is to see "an unseen world," also.

For example, it was not just the masses of people calling out for the death of Jesus. They were all sinners Romans 3:9, they all had sin as a present tense occupancy of their flesh, and evil present with them, Romans 7:17-21, 1 John 1:8, and sin, is, of course, of the DEVIL. 1 John 3:8.

The luxury we have in Christ is to have our EYES OPENED to the reality of being pawned by the power of DARKNESS, which is of SATAN. So we are no longer his PAWNS in the flesh. That is HOW our own eyes are opened and turned to GOD in Christ as our LEAD, instead. Acts 26:18.

We can take a surface view of things, but looking past the flesh, we'll see how The Word sees. The Word never sees only people. When the Word looks upon an unsaved person, THIS is how the Word sees them: 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

The Word sees accurately.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course Jesus commanded it to happen. No different than Jesus commanding that Peter would deny Him 3 times. Whenever God speaks a prophetic Word of any sort, IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. There is no "choice" available. What happened with Judas was already predetermined to transpire from Pslam 41 and verified by Acts 4:26-28. Just as much predetermined as the coming of God in flesh.


Jesus didn't just know. God Himself smote the Shepherd by Divine Pre Planned Intentions. None of the events of Christ were random accidental events caused by a bunch of "free willers" who's random decisions just happened to coincide bringing about the Exact and Perfect Plan of God in Christ.


It was not just Jesus who was in Gods Perfect Will and Plan. All of the others were moved by God as well, even in their resistance to God. No different than God hardening Pharaoh or arousing a host of enemies toward Israel.

The notions that anything written of in the Bible is a recording or random events caused by freewillers does not and can not hold scriptural water. It is every jot and title a recording of the cause and continual interactions of God Himself within His Own creation. John 5:39. History in Biblical terms is HIStory. He being The Author of same. And He's still writing. 2 Cor. 3:3, Heb. 4:12.


All of Satan's actions are compelled to be made. Where the Word is sown Satan has "no choice" but to "resist." That's how God made that character to perform. Satan dances in opposition to Gods Word, Work and Ways like a puppet on a string. Mark 4:15. If anyone studies how this works they'd see it in real time, themselves, personally. Romans 7:7-25, 1 Cor. 15:56. Satan is entirely "predictable" according to the ways he is compelled to make in adverse reactions to Gods Words.


Of course that's the way it was, and STILL is. God Himself is with us in all things, even planning our own steps.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Would I afford the same sight to Judas? Absolutely. God PLANNED that Judas should betray Him. Judas was "ordained" for every step of his resisting ways as well. And Judas was not "alone" in that event. To see only Judas is to miss the obvious bad actor in the event who was IN Judas, Satan.

We ought to recognize the much larger Divine Principle that God Himself put into play in Israel. This Divine Principle is STILL at work in the world today.

Mark 4:15. When we look at ANYONE in the Bible, other than Jesus, we should not be dissecting any of those matters apart from the fact of Mark 4:15.

For example, it was not just the masses of people calling out for the death of Jesus. They were all sinners, they all had sin, and sin, is, of course, of the DEVIL.

We can take a surface view of things, but looking past the flesh, we'll see how The Word sees.

I agree with the first part of your post Smaller.
But then I have to disagree. God does not plan ALL.
That would mean we have no free will

It was NECESSARY that Judas betray Jesus.
Every step we take is not necessary to God's final plan.

 

[smaller]

I agree with the first part of your post Smaller.
But then I have to disagree. God does not plan ALL.

And I would respectfully avoid that sight and claim. God is not isolated and extracted from any event that transpires in His Own Creation. It is all under His Own Plan and Direct Guidance and Hands. The notion of freewill can not hold water. What we have is a will that is Divinely Purposefully BLINDED to the reality of Gods Operations. We, in our own body of flesh, are 'bound' in oppositions to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. I'd call the notions of freewill "anti-God." It's a claim of the flesh in opposition to God, and that, by Divine Design.

That would mean we have no free will

We undoubtedly have a will that is in conflict with God beyond any uncertainty. I wouldn't term being in conflict with God as "free" anything.

It was NECESSARY that Judas betray Jesus.
Every step we take is not necessary to God's final plan.

God can not be reasonably extracted from being entirely ACTIVE, Himself, in His Own Creation. But He Himself has chosen to blockade our sights of these matters by placing us in a conflicted state called "flesh" which IS in opposition to and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

The sin indwelling the flesh of anyone is NOT in the control of the person. It functions in oppositions to GOD, automatically. Evil present with us is NOT cooperating with God. It works purposefully AGAINST God. And NO ONE has any choice to make it otherwise.

Will the conflicting will of the flesh, the indwelling sin that Paul termed "no more I", the evil present with us submit to this fact? No. It can't. Even in such claims they are merely LIES.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural mind calls that 'freewill.' Scriptural reality says such a mind is SPIRITUALLY BLINDED and DEAD IN SIN. 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:1-2. And people in this state are not "just them." They are under the direct control and influence of Satan, their mental slave master. Acts 26:18, the power of darkness.

The question then turns to this: Does God CONTROL evil? And the answer to that is YES. He directs evil and sin to OPPOSE Himself by exposing evil present to HIS WORD and the evil present RESISTS. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56. Just as we are shown in JUDAS. Mark 4:15 is HOW this operation takes place.

Does this make Gods Commands anything less than Holy, Righteous and Good? No. They are entirely that. But the "reactions" of indwelling sin and evil present are COMPELLED in man, to resist.

And yes, this is HOW God Himself has set up this present time in creation.

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

Believing implies doing - it's the doing that tells us who they are.

Judas was chosen to betray Jesus. That's the way it works. Nothing happens in heaven or on earth unless it is God's will. ie. letting people fall away, letting people sin - then he destroys them. The shepherd knows his own sheep - those he kept. Jesus said none were lost except the son of perdition. Yes Judas was a devil.
John 17:6
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Re. Peter - denying is not betraying. It's normal, the weakness of the flesh, to deny something if your life is at stake.

Exactly!

 

[GodsGrace]

He wasn't saved in the end, that's just it.

He believed for a while, then fell away, and ended up betraying the Lord Jesus.


Just like the example Jesus gave us.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Judas Iscariot believed for a while, and followed Jesus just like the other disciples, and was promoted to Apostle, just like the others, and was empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, just like the others.


What he didn't do like the others, is to continue to believe, and follow Jesus, steadfast to the end.

Enduring to the end.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14


If we betray another Christian, the way Judas did, are we betraying the Lord Himself?

Based on the following scriptures, the answer is yes.

And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:40

and again

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
Acts 9:3-5



JLB

Hi JLB,
When the bible says not to judge, I believe it means that we can judge a person's actions, but not their eternal fate. But in this case, Jesus Himself makes the proclamation.
I'd have to agree that Judas was not saved in the end. The scripture that makes me believe this is
John 17:12.
Jesus protected all the Apostles, except for the son of perdition.

Also, I believe
Mathew 26:24 must surely have been mentioned. Woe to the man who betrays Jesus - it would have been better had he never
been born. This does not sound like Judas was saved in the end. As I've said, he did repent, but it was not a salvific repentance.

My problem is that I have difficulty in understanding whether or not he was ever saved.
John 6:68 is one of my favorite scriptures.
John 6:70 tells us that Jesus Himself chose the 12 but one of them is a devil. A devil could follow Jesus and believe in Jesus, but not in the Greek meaning of follow or believe. How could a "devil" be saved?

I do agree with you that one could be saved for a while and then become lost.
I understand that you're using Judas as an example. (Luke 8:13 and Mathew 24:13)



Wondering

 

[JLB]

My problem is that I have difficulty in understanding whether or not he was ever saved.

Do you believe he ever believed?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you believe he ever believed?



JLB

If he ever believed Jesus was God Almighty,
how could he have betrayed Him so?

I tend to think Judas was not ever saved.
He called Jesus, Rabbi.
Teacher -

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you believe he ever believed?

JLB

Judas was disappointed in Jesus. I believe he betrayed him to the Sanhedrin to try and get Jesus to join them and overthrow the Romans somehow.

I don't believe he ever trusted the Lord. He seemed to be more concerned with the finances (and possibly stealing money) than with the spiritual matters that Jesus was concerned with. You read a lot about Peter and John and James. I can't remember anything nice being written about Judas. He complained when money was spent on buying perfumed oil instead of putting it into the till.

When Peter said "we" in John 6:69, how could we be sure Judas was included in his statement?
Also, how would Peter even know Judas' spiritual condition. They were all together and travelled together - he most
likely believed that Judas trusted Jesus as the other 11 did.

If Judas trusted Jesus, he never would have betrayed Him.
If he didn't trust Him, how could he have been saved?
At what point in the three or so years would you say Judas became an unbeliever?

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John 10:3
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Was Judas a sheep? Of course. Was Judas "called out" specifically, to be a disciple? Yes! Matt. 10:1. Was Judas called out to be not only a disciple, but an Apostle? Again, YES. Matt. 10:2.

So then, was Judas a SHEEP? Again, yes, Jesus called Judas A SHEEP.

Matt. 10:
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Jesus also called Judas, a friend:

Psalm 41:
9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
10 But thou, O Lord, be merciful unto me, and raise me up, that I may requite them.
11 By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me.

Was Jesus speaking in the above about requiting His familiar friend? ABSOLUTELY! "requite" is a now obsolete English verb meaning "to set free, discharge."

Would Isaiah 53:6 apply to the sin of Judas? No differently than it applies to ANY SHEEP.

We should recognize that the "enemy" was involved, internally, not only with Judas, whom SATAN entered. Peter also DENIED Jesus, and the other sheep ALL abandoned Jesus as well. This was the Direct Plan of God Himself:

Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

There wasn't a man of them who could have made a choice otherwise.

Was Judas the "friend" of Jesus?

Matthew 26:50
And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Judas: Called out by name. Disciple. Apostle. Friend. SHEEP.

And Jesus, KNOWING in advance, what would happen with Judas, did NOT have to call him out to perform what Judas performed. Jesus not only knew it, but PLANNED IT Himself, long before the world was ever created.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:15
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Was Judas a SHEEP?

Yep!

 

[JLB]

If he ever believed Jesus was God Almighty,
how could he have betrayed Him so?

I tend to think Judas was not ever saved.
He called Jesus, Rabbi.
Teacher -

Wondering

Do you believe Judas Iscariot, ever believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God?

Here are some verse's, that lead me to believe that Judas did believe at one time.

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69

Judas Iscariot followed Jesus as a disciple for 3 1/2 years, and was promoted to Apostle and empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.


And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Matthew 10:1-10


Judas Iscariot was ordained to sit on one of the twelve thrones, along with the others, at the resurrection, which is when we will inherit eternal life.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:28-29


These are just a few of the scriptures that lead me to believe, that Judas Iscariot, was a believer... for a while.



JLB