Justification by Faith

[Cygnus]

My faith does not say you already lost your salvation if one is capable of loosing it.

Sure it does..
Besides your sin taking you out....your faith ebs and flows through out your life.
One lapse of faith...and your salvation is lost.....That religion is not for me. You can have it if you desire.

 

[Nathan]

Sure it does..
Besides your sin taking you out....your faith ebs and flows through out your life.
One lapse of faith...and your salvation is lost.....That religion is not for me. You can have it if you desire.

Your falsely accusing me. I'm not sure if it's your desire to try and make the faith sound different than it is, but you are falsely stating what I believe.

Please show where I state one lapse of faith and your salvation is lost. In fact, show where any of your statements are what I said.

Is it your desire to put yourself into the camp of a false accuser?

 

[Cygnus]

Your falsely accusing me. I'm not sure if it's your desire to try and make the faith sound different than it is, but you are falsely stating what I believe.

Please show where I state one lapse of faith and your salvation is lost. In fact, show where any of your statements are what I said.

Is it your desire to put yourself into the camp of a false accuser?

You WILL STOP saying Im falsely accusing you. Your religion tells us if you're saved...you've already lost it.
I said one loss of faith...and according to you, I TRULY BELIEVE you posted as if your salvation is lost.....then you relied back with as statement that seemed to tell us it takes several loss of faith episodes. Now which is it?

 

[Nathan]

You WILL STOP saying Im falsely accusing you. Your religion tells us if you're saved...you've already lost it.
I said one loss of faith...and according to you, I TRULY BELIEVE you posted as if your salvation is lost.....then you relied back with as statement that seemed to tell us it takes several loss of faith episodes. Now which is it?

I will not stop saying it because its the truth. When you stop doing it, then I will stop saying it.

You still will not show where I have stated any of the above false statements. You accuse me without even showing me what you are accusing me of. How can you falsely accuse someone without at least showing a quote that states what you think they are saying? I am simply asking you to quote my sentences that you think states what you are falsely accusing me of.

Salvation is in Christ alone, through faith alone. If you turn from the faith, leaving Christ for another way of salvation, then you do not have salvation.

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

The eternal life that God has given us is IN Christ - not in us apart from Him. If we have the Son of God in us, we have the eternal life God gives. If we do not have the Son of God in us, we do not have the eternal life God gives.

 

[Cygnus]

Salvation is in Christ alone, through faith alone. If you turn from the faith, leaving Christ for another way of salvation, then you do not have salvation.

You've already done that.

Almost every christian has had their faith somewhat shattered. Perhaps for a moment, perhaps for a season...only to have it restored.
Some of the saved have had their faith lost and died in that season....YOU....claim they lost their salvation which means they are currently in hell.

 

[Nathan]

You've already done that.

Almost every christian has had their faith somewhat shattered. Perhaps for a moment, perhaps for a season...only to have it restored.
Some of the saved have had their faith lost and died in that season....YOU....claim they lost their salvation which means they are currently in hell.

You again falsely accuse me. False statements by you, toward me.

I did NOT state that they lost their salvation. Are you intentionally misquoting me?

There is a difference between doubting in your faith and turning from it. We WILL go through times of testing in our faith.

1Pe 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

If a person leaves the faith, turns from Christ, denies the only way of salvation - then they will not be saved. There is no other salvation available to us other than Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

I did NOT state that they lost their salvation. Are you intentionally misquoting me?

Nathan, stop backpedaling.
You claimed multiple times on this forum people can lose their salvation. I said if that possible YOU have already lost your salvation. You didn't like that. Sorry.

I showed you a person can leave their faith....and NOT lose salvation. Fellowship yes. Salvation NO.

People through out their walk with the Lord have lost faith. At that moment your theology, religion, says they just forfeited their salvation. Many of those people have been restored to faith.....were they saved again?

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, stop backpedaling.
You claimed multiple times on this forum people can lose their salvation. I said if that possible YOU have already lost your salvation. You didn't like that. Sorry.

I showed you a person can leave their faith....and NOT lose salvation. Fellowship yes. Salvation NO.

People through out their walk with the Lord have lost faith. At that moment your theology, religion, says they just forfeited their salvation. Many of those people have been restored to faith.....were they saved again?

You cannot pull out one sentence in a post of mine and then falsely accuse me of stating something.

Are you stating that "I"(Nathan) have lost my salvation if it is possible?

You have not shown a person can leave the faith and still have salvation - you have just been accusing me of things.

There is a difference between doubting in your faith, and turning away from it.

A person who turns away from the faith does so because they do not want the faith. A person who doubts in their faith can be encouraged to come back to fellowship with God through Christ. The one who turns from the faith because they do not want it, because they want what they desire, cannot have what faith gives.

If you really wanted to talk about this, instead of throwing insults and false accusations toward me, we could have a discussion. But it does no good for you to say I believe in something that I have never stated, or tell me I am doing something that I have never done. Insults are not the way to properly talk about a subject.

 

[Cygnus]

You have not shown a person can leave the faith and still have salvation - you have just been accusing me of things.

You can't be snatched from Jesus' hand.
If you turn from the faith....YOU'VE BEEN SNATCHED....according to your religion.

 

[Nathan]

You can't be snatched from Jesus' hand.
If you turn from the faith....YOU'VE BEEN SNATCHED....according to your religion.

Seriously, you almost had a complete post without one insult. Why throw that one in there? Does it add to the conversation?

If you walk out of your house to go to another, did someone snatch you from it? Did you snatch yourself from it?

 

[Cygnus]

If you really wanted to talk about this, instead of throwing insults and false accusations toward me, we could have a discussion. But it does no good for you to say I believe in something that I have never stated, or tell me I am doing something that I have never done. Insults are not the way to properly talk about a subject.

number 1, I have not insulted you.
number 2, it is you who says an individual can lose their salvation.

NUMBER 3, if you can lose your salvation.....you already have lost it. This is why your religion is wrong. Continuation of salvation becomes dependent on WHAT YOU DO.

 

[Cygnus]

Seriously, you almost had a complete post without one insult. Why throw that one in there? Does it add to the conversation?

Where have I insulted you?

If you walk out of your house to go to another, did someone snatch you from it? Did you snatch yourself from it?

Yes, you were snatched. Something in the other house enticed you, fooled you, deceived you......You believed a lie and took action.
Do you honestly think Jesus who shed his blood for you....will give you up because you were deceived and turned towards a lie?

You can't be snatched.

 

[Nathan]

number 1, I have not insulted you.
number 2, it is you who says an individual can lose their salvation.

NUMBER 3, if you can lose your salvation.....you already have lost it. This is why your religion is wrong. Continuation of salvation becomes dependent on WHAT YOU DO.

Yes, it is insulting to make the comments you do. They add nothing to the conversation, therefore they are only there for insulting.

I specifically am stating that an individual can turn from and deny their salvation. Some call it loss, I call it an intentional act.

You keep saying that if you can lose your salvation.....you already have lost it - how?

I do not believe salvation is dependent on ANYTHING a person does.

 

[Nathan]

Where have I insulted you?

This quote of yours, "If you turn from the faith....YOU'VE BEEN SNATCHED....according to your religion."
I have never stated that if you turn from the faith that you have been snatched, and then you say its 'according to my religion'. You are insulting me by stating something I have never said, and then saying it is "my religion".

Yes, you were snatched. Something in the other house enticed you, fooled you, deceived you......You believed a lie and took action.
Do you honestly think Jesus who shed his blood for you....will give you up because you were deceived and turned towards a lie?

You can't be snatched.

"Snatched" is being taken by force. If you walk out of your house and go to another - other than by force - you by definition cannot have been snatched.

The people who turn toward a lie, who are deceived, do so because they choose to - not because they are forced to. God never is said to let someone believe something, without giving them the choice to believe what is right. He gives us His love, and if we choose to reject it we have no reason to blame Him.

A person cannot blame God for their choices. So a person cannot say that God gave them up, without their choice, if they chose to leave God's house.

We have all the reasons in the world to stay in Christ. No one can take us from Him. We are secure in Him. We are nourished in Him. He supplies all our needs. So if we choose to leave Him it is our choice.

 

[Cygnus]

I specifically am stating that an individual can turn from and deny their salvation. Some call it loss, I call it an intentional act.

Then I would have to say they were never saved.....considering nothing can snatch you from Jesus' hand.

Then again if it's possible to lose ones salvation...they already have.

 

[Cygnus]

"Snatched" is being taken by force. If you walk out of your house and go to another - other than by force - you by definition cannot have been snatched.

That what enticed you....snatched you.

Just before the were too.....I give them eternal life.....you can't lose eternal life. That's what eternal means....forever. If you can be snatched then your eternal life can be taken. Your religion continues to fail all over the place.

It's getting to the point I really don't care if you believe the misrepresentation you presented.

I wish you the best with your salvation. I know men is secure and can never be lost.

 

[Nathan]

That what enticed you....snatched you.

Just before the were too.....I give them eternal life.....you can't lose eternal life. That's what eternal means....forever. If you can be snatched then your eternal life can be taken. Your religion continues to fail all over the place.

It's getting to the point I really don't care if you believe the misrepresentation you presented.

I wish you the best with your salvation. I know men is secure and can never be lost.

I don't think you can be snatched. It is impossible.

Every time you leave your house do you consider yourself being snatched?

Leaving and being forcefully taken are different. Did Jesus say people could never leave?

I do find it interesting you always have to throw a jab in with your post to me. Why?

 

[JLB]

You can't be snatched from Jesus' hand.
If you turn from the faith....YOU'VE BEEN SNATCHED....according to your religion.

If you willing choose to depart from Christ and serve Allah, no one snatched you out of His hand, you simply departed from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

and again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JLB

 

[Nathan]

If you willing choose to depart from Christ and serve Allah, no one snatched you out of His hand, you simply departed from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

and again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JLB

I know we are on the same page here, but something you said caught my eye. I often say the same thing, but I can now see how it could be misunderstood.

I do not think we can "simply" leave Christ. I've said it a lot myself, but reading it could lead a person to think that it's 'easy' to walk away. I know I never mean it like that when I use the word, but I see now that it could be read that way.

For a person to leave Christ after being united with the Spirit of God is going to be like going through a divorce. Both parties are well aware of what's going on, and God does not want it to happen.

It is well known that the person who leaves Christ is doing so because they want to, not because they accidentally 'fell' off the curb.

Grace is greater than sin.

 

[JLB]

I know we are on the same page here, but something you said caught my eye. I often say the same thing, but I can now see how it could be misunderstood.

I do not think we can "simply" leave Christ. I've said it a lot myself, but reading it could lead a person to think that it's 'easy' to walk away. I know I never mean it like that when I use the word, but I see now that it could be read that way.

For a person to leave Christ after being united with the Spirit of God is going to be like going through a divorce. Both parties are well aware of what's going on, and God does not want it to happen.

It is well known that the person who leaves Christ is doing so because they want to, not because they accidentally 'fell' off the curb.

Grace is greater than sin.

Amen.


One of the more important teachings from the Lord about this subject, that is so pertinent today, as we see that Day approaching comes from the parable of the Sower, and is reiterated to His disciples in the Olivet Discourse.

His words, and there meaning, get somewhat confused in today's modern society as we try to interpret words like "fall away", and "stumble", with modern day interpretations, where we end up with a meaning very much associated with "fall off the curb", as you say.

These words carry a very specific meaning, and were a very specific warning, to His disciples concerning persecution and death from those of their countrymen, who practiced a religion that rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah; Judaism

Today, we have the same issue but with many more religions, one which is in the forefront of the news, and is Islam.

Both Islam and Judaism reject Jesus as Messiah, and Lord.

Radical Islam is responsible for murdering and persecuting many Christians today.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13


18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:18-21


Fall away and stumble have very distinct meanings, though they are different Greek words, they have a common meaning, in accordance with the context.

• Fall away - Depart from - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from
      

• Stumble - Offend - Strong's G4624 - skandalizō

to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend

1. to entice to sin
2. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
   1. to cause to fall away
   2. to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
   3. to cause one to judge unfavorably or unjustly of another
3. since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
   1. to cause one displeasure at a thing
   2. to make indignant
   3. to be displeased, indignant
      

Jesus is warning His disciples, teaching them about how the enemy will bring to bear upon them persecution, for the purpose of having them depart from and desert Him; to cease believing in Him, which is the very condition by which they are saved.


Jesus reiterates this vital truth to them, concerning the time of the end, as He returns.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-13

• then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
• But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
• yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Many will fall away during this time of great persecution, during the great tribulation, deserting Him and embracing the false messiah.

It's no wonder, since many embrace the teachings of Calvinism, of OSAS, believing that they can never lose their salvation even if they renounce Jesus Christ under persecution, or take the mark of the beast.

Between the pre-trib rapture doctrine and OSAS, many will fall away, abandoning their Lord and Savior, choosing to depart from the faith, during this time.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB