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Justification by Faith

OzSpen said:
Looking at the whole of the Bible, I can find no other way to conclude than that those who persevere to the end will be saved.
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That is true. I fully agree with that. And a sign of a true believer in Jesus is that they will persevere to the end.
 
Papa Zoom said:
So what did you do today newly retired guy Papa Zoom ?

"Well I took a very nice nap"

What else did you do today?

"Well I went online to a Christian discussion forum where my brothers and sisters in Christ argue incessantly about matters dealing with salvation."

Wow. Sounds fun! Think I'll go smack my head against that concrete slab instead.

:wall
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I think Jude felt the same way, don't feel alone.

Seriously, eternity is so much longer than this temporal life. It's easy to get caught into the idea of wanting things to be relaxing.
 
OzSpen said:
Do you live in a brick house? I do.
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Only the chimney is brick. But I do have two fireplaces. And lots of rock outside. Glacial till I think.

BTW, in order to be on topic, I in no way believer a person can be "saved" and then later reject Christ. That is not how a saved person acts. I do have a little trouble understanding people who have left the faith. I know of some and they sure seemed sincere for many, many years.
 
Nathan said:
I think Jude felt the same way, don't feel alone.

Seriously, eternity is so much longer than this temporal life. It's easy to get caught into the idea of wanting things to be relaxing.
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True that. I was listening to the "Unbelievable" podcast yesterday and they had on N.T. Wright and another theologian. They agreed on many things but not everything. They were very polite. They were discussing ideas from Wright's book "The Day The Revolution Began." But what struck me, and this always makes me wonder, is how two well learned men, well versed in Greek and experts in the Bible, read the same Bible and come away with different thoughts and ideas about the same texts.

No one will ever have a perfect theology and even if they did, there's no way of knowing with certainty that one's view is absolutely true. Which is why I don't believe anyone has 100% clarity when it comes to matters relating to salvation. One just can't know with 100% certainty that his/her view is 100% correct. At best we can believe we've got it and offer up the best evidence to support our view.
 
I think a person can know when what they have is the truth. I think a person who doubts is doubting for a reason.

However, that does not mean you follow that person who says they know the truth. It means you can, 100%, know the truth yourself. The enemy will always say they know the truth.

If a person could not leave the faith then there would not be so many passages about it. It defintey is not how a person in Christ would act, so it definitely means they are turning away from Christ.
 
OzSpen said:
You're avoiding the issue I raise of faith founded on fact and not a leap of faith.
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i am avoiding your reply yes .i deal with calvinist in another forum and i have yet to run across many to even come close to saying they was wrong... i could reply with scripture . but this being a semi user friendly forum i will refrain
 
Nathan said:
I think a person can know when what they have is the truth. I think a person who doubts is doubting for a reason.

However, that does not mean you follow that person who says they know the truth. It means you can, 100%, know the truth yourself. The enemy will always say they know the truth.

If a person could not leave the faith then there would not be so many passages about it. It defintey is not how a person in Christ would act, so it definitely means they are turning away from Christ.
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Put ten people in a room who all claim to know the 100% truth on a matter and get ten different truths. The only way you can "know" with 100% certainty is if you are God. You can have a high degree of confidence but not 100% knowledge. You could hold a position on something and be 100% correct. But you can't know with certainty because we are finite beings and we see through a glass dimly. Good grief the history of Christianity is filled with people who were sure their opposing views were right and they knew it!

Does anyone know the exact nature of Hell? Do people "burn" for eternity? Are you sure of your view? There's another contentious topic we could explore.

This is not to say that the Bible precludes knowing some things. There are things of which I'm 100% certain about. God says we can know for sure of His existence. I've never seen God but I have seen His work. I believe in the testimony of the Apostles and have 100% certainty of who Christ is and that He is God in the flesh. I don't doubt that in the slightest. There are many things of which I have little to no doubt.

Yet some things we simply can't know and won't know this side of heaven. If it was that easy, we wouldn't have spent 2000 plus years arguing over the same things.
 
Papa Zoom said:
Put ten people in a room who all claim to know the 100% truth on a matter and get ten different truths. The only way you can "know" with 100% certainty is if you are God. You can have a high degree of confidence but not 100% knowledge. You could hold a position on something and be 100% correct. But you can't know with certainty because we are finite beings and we see through a glass dimly. Good grief the history of Christianity is filled with people who were sure their opposing views were right and they knew it!

Does anyone know the exact nature of Hell? Do people "burn" for eternity? Are you sure of your view? There's another contentious topic we could explore.

This is not to say that the Bible precludes knowing some things. There are things of which I'm 100% certain about. God says we can know for sure of His existence. I've never seen God but I have seen His work. I believe in the testimony of the Apostles and have 100% certainty of who Christ is and that He is God in the flesh. I don't doubt that in the slightest. There are many things of which I have little to no doubt.

Yet some things we simply can't know and won't know this side of heaven. If it was that easy, we wouldn't have spent 2000 plus years arguing over the same things.
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John 8
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one.

Which of Jesus statements are true?

Just because you don't think you know the truth does not negate the fact His disciples do.

Jesus does not say His disciples will know everything, just that they will know the truth. I know when I hear the truth, and when I do not hear the truth I know it's a lie.
 
Nathan said:
John 8
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one.

Which of Jesus statements are true?

Just because you don't think you know the truth does not negate the fact His disciples do.

Jesus does not say His disciples will know everything, just that they will know the truth. I know when I hear the truth, and when I do not hear the truth I know it's a lie.
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Everything Jesus says is true. I didn't say I don't know the Truth but there's no way you or I or anyone else can know the truth of everything and in many things, there's no way we can know that what we "know" is actually corresponding with reality. If you and I don't agree on the nature of Hell, would you say I'm lying because we differ? (I don't know that we do just using that as an example). People differ on many things. I hold to a different view of salvation. My different view doesn't make me a liar. I could be wrong but I also could be right.
 
Papa Zoom said:
Everything Jesus says is true. I didn't say I don't know the Truth but there's no way you or I or anyone else can know the truth of everything and in many things, there's no way we can know that what we "know" is actually corresponding with reality. If you and I don't agree on the nature of Hell, would you say I'm lying because we differ? (I don't know that we do just using that as an example). People differ on many things. I hold to a different view of salvation. My different view doesn't make me a liar. I could be wrong but I also could be right.
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exactly
 
Papa Zoom said:
Everything Jesus says is true. I didn't say I don't know the Truth but there's no way you or I or anyone else can know the truth of everything and in many things, there's no way we can know that what we "know" is actually corresponding with reality. If you and I don't agree on the nature of Hell, would you say I'm lying because we differ? (I don't know that we do just using that as an example). People differ on many things. I hold to a different view of salvation. My different view doesn't make me a liar. I could be wrong but I also could be right.
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I don't doubt there are a lot of things not known, but when something is presented there is no doubt that you can know if it is true or false.

The issue comes when a person doesn't want to listen to the Spirit. If the Spirit of God lives in you(and He does in everyone who is in Christ) then He is not going to just sit back and make you wonder if what you are hearing is true or false.

Sure, there are times when we do not want to listen. But that's what discipline is for. If you are trained by it, then you will be able to discern.

If you hold to a view, and teach it, and it is false - then yes you are a liar. That is the truth. The kingdom of God is not a free for all.

Thinking you know something is vastly different than saying you know something absolute. The heart of the matter is this - if you want to know the truth you absolutely can. And if God does not want you to know something, then He will tell you. It's really not anymore complicated than that.

John 16
7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

James 4:3
You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

Matthew 7
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Jesus is speaking the truth. You can know if something is true or not. Just ask. It's not about knowing all things, just about knowing if something is true or not. In Christ there is no doubt.

James 1
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
 
Nathan said:
I don't doubt there are a lot of things not known, but when something is presented there is no doubt that you can know if it is true or false.
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1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The issue comes when a person doesn't want to listen to the Spirit. If the Spirit of God lives in you(and He does in everyone who is in Christ) then He is not going to just sit back and make you wonder if what you are hearing is true or false.
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But we don't know all things. What is the exact nature of Heaven? What is the exact nature of God? What is the perfect theology? The list goes on. We know only in part. We are finite. We know from a finite perspective.

Sure, there are times when we do not want to listen. But that's what discipline is for. If you are trained by it, then you will be able to discern.
If you hold to a view, and teach it, and it is false - then yes you are a liar. That is the truth. The kingdom of God is not a free for all.
Click to expand...

Explain why there are so many different views on so many different things. And if you hold to a view that is false, it could simply be that you have good reason for your view but are wrong. That doesn't make one a liar, just wrong. I don't believe in a fiery hell that burns people forever. I'm not a liar for that view and I have good reasons for it. There's actually 4 views of Hell that I'm somewhat familiar with but there are probably more.

Thinking you know something is vastly different than saying you know something absolute. The heart of the matter is this - if you want to know the truth you absolutely can. And if God does not want you to know something, then He will tell you. It's really not anymore complicated than that.
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I totally disagree. We know in part. If you want to know the truth of something, you may be able to discern it. There's more we don't know than things we do know.

John 16
7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

James 4:3
You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

Matthew 7
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Jesus is speaking the truth. You can know if something is true or not. Just ask. It's not about knowing all things, just about knowing if something is true or not. In Christ there is no doubt.
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At a Bible study a person claimed the HS spoke to him about a certain matter. Then he told us what it was. I was like, man that is crazy. I don't believe that for a second. People here make truth claims all the time and they contradict.

James 1
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
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I don't doubt God, I doubt man.
 
Nathan said:
Paul is saying that those in Christ will put on immortality. He never stated those who are not in Christ will have immortality.
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Yes. That is exactly what He said: "...the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality."
Nathan said:
If you understand that when a body is "killed" that it no longer exists, then you understand that a soul that is destroyed is also brought to non-existence.
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Then you accept the annihilation heresy of the JWs and 7th Day Adventists?
Where does scripture say that the lost are "brought to non-existence"?
Nathan said:
The second death destroys both body and soul.
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Where does scripture say that?
 
Papa Zoom said:
1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


But we don't know all things. What is the exact nature of Heaven? What is the exact nature of God? What is the perfect theology? The list goes on. We know only in part. We are finite. We know from a finite perspective.



Explain why there are so many different views on so many different things. And if you hold to a view that is false, it could simply be that you have good reason for your view but are wrong. That doesn't make one a liar, just wrong. I don't believe in a fiery hell that burns people forever. I'm not a liar for that view and I have good reasons for it. There's actually 4 views of Hell that I'm somewhat familiar with but there are probably more.



I totally disagree. We know in part. If you want to know the truth of something, you may be able to discern it. There's more we don't know than things we do know.

John 16
7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

James 4:3
You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

Matthew 7
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!


At a Bible study a person claimed the HS spoke to him about a certain matter. Then he told us what it was. I was like, man that is crazy. I don't believe that for a second. People here make truth claims all the time and they contradict.


I don't doubt God, I doubt man.
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Papa, Paul is speaking about heavenly things - things that pertain to eternity in the future for us. Things that are outside of our time domain and physical realm. Those are the things we know 'in part' - however, what we know about them we can know if it is true or false.

I think that two ideas are being melded together here. There is 'knowledge' and 'truth'. Knowledge is the collection of things we know. Some have a small collection, some have a big collection. Truth is everything that is not false, it is the quality of the knowledge we have.

When we are presented with information, the Spirit of God inside of us does not sit back and say "you figure out if that is truth or a lie". The Spirit of God tells us if what we hear/see is true or false. The Spirit of God in us will NEVER tell us something is true if there is anything false to it.

We must not be fooled into thinking that as born from above believers - who have the very Spirit of God living in us, who is leading us each and every day to the eternal kingdom of God - that we will not know what is true and what is false.

The devil has been around trying to put doubt into the mind of humans since the beginning. He is always looking to make a person question if what God says is actually true. He makes people think that there is no possible way for them to know the truth. This is a lie. Anything that is not 100% truth is a lie. So, all the devil has to do is deceive someone just a little in the truth - which brings in doubt.

Under the authority of the Lord Jesus the Christ, I can say before you that the truth can be known - the truth should be known - God has no pleasure in those who shrink back in doubt. Listen, when God speaks truth to us, He wants us to receive it and know it.
 
Jim Parker said:
Yes. That is exactly what He said: "...the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality."

Then you accept the annihilation heresy of the JWs and 7th Day Adventists?
Where does scripture say that the lost are "brought to non-existence"?

Where does scripture say that?
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If you want I'd be glad to carry on this conversation in a different thread. I am not sure how the JW's and SDA believe concerning this, but I do not believe the other parts of their false teaching, so I am sure what I know would not line up with what they teach either.
 
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