Justification by Faith

[JLB]

You still seem to be having a problem with understanding fellowship and salvation.

Above you said...."you simply departed from the faith.".....true. That's all you did. Considering no one can snatch you....you're still saved.

Once again, if a "christian" actually left the "faith" they probably didn't have true faith and never were saved from the beginning.

Sorry, but choosing to depart from someone of your own freewill, and someone snatching you by force against your own freewill are entirely different things, that you are trying to blend together as meaning the same thing.


If I divorce a wife that is unfaithful, then I have taken the action to do so.

If my wife is kidnapped from the parking lot of the grocery store and taken away from me by force, then that is completely different, in which someone else has taken the action to do so.

God can and will remove people from being "in Christ".

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• In Christ = Eternal Life
• Removed from Christ = Cast into the fire and burned; Eternal Death

Do you believe being "in Christ" is fellowship or relationship?



JLB

 

[JLB]

It's now time to point our you're mixing apples with oranges.

Leaving your house is not like leaving salvation. There are many reason to leave a house.

The only way one would leave true faith in Christ is through deception. Some one may lose their faith but considering they can't snatched from Christ hand they would remain saved. Even deception can try to steal you from Christ....and it may through your lifestyle...but your spiritual position as adopted son won't be lost.

Through out a seasoned christians life time deception comes in and steals, seizes, our relationship from Christ...but it can't seize our salvation.

Not one single scripture in this post.

Please use scripture in this very controversial subject.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

• all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Here are those who will receive eternal life:

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

Please read these words carefully:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Do you seek immortality?



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Sorry, but choosing to depart from someone of your own freewill, and someone snatching you by force against your own freewill are entirely different things, that you are trying to blend together as meaning the same thing.


If I divorce a wife that is unfaithful, then I have taken the action to do so.

If my wife is kidnapped from the parking lot of the grocery store and taken away from me by force, then that is completely different, in which someone else has taken the action to do so.

God can and will remove people from being "in Christ".

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• In Christ = Eternal Life
• Removed from Christ = Cast into the fire and burned; Eternal Death

Do you believe being "in Christ" is fellowship or relationship?



JLB

It's been interesting to debate you....but salvation really isn't a persons choice. Remaining saved isn't also a persons choice.
You give to much glory to yourself...rather than to Jesus.

Don't forget....if you can lose your salvation you've already lost it....trusting in yourself rather than Jesus.

 

[Cygnus]

Please use scripture in this very controversial subject.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,

One thing I'm beginning to dislike is one who takes scripture out of context...acting as if they have proven their theology.

You left out one very important point.....Your verse said......24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,

Believe and you have eternal life. Should I say it again? Believe and have eternal life. End of discussion. Eternal life means just that. ETERNAL....never ending. NO Where does it say if you stop believing you'l lose eternal life. why? Because you already have eternal life. That's what eternal life means.

Now please stop adding to scripture.

 

[JLB]

One thing I'm beginning to dislike is one who takes scripture out of context...acting as if they have proven their theology.

You left out one very important point.....Your verse said......24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,

Believe and you have eternal life. Should I say it again? Believe and have eternal life. End of discussion. Eternal life means just that. ETERNAL....never ending. NO Where does it say if you stop believing you'l lose eternal life. why? Because you already have eternal life. That's what eternal life means.

Now please stop adding to scripture.

I left out no point, as I quoted the actual scripture, and the context.

I added nothing to the scripture, but only pointed out what the scripture says.

...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


Here is what you left out, which is clear to all, because you didn't post the scripture, and refer to the actual language from the scripture itself.

Believe and you have eternal life. Should I say it again? Believe and have eternal life.

This is not what the scripture actually says.

Here is what John 5:24 actually says:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24


Here is the condition for eternal life.

• he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me

The result of meeting the condition:

• has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Hear and believe [present tense] = has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Those who have Christ [present tense] have eternal life.

12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:12-13

• He who has the Son has life;
• he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

• that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Now that the condition for eternal life has been explained, we can discuss what believe and hear and eternal life means.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It's been interesting to debate you....but salvation really isn't a persons choice. Remaining saved isn't also a persons choice.
You give to much glory to yourself...rather than to Jesus.

Don't forget....if you can lose your salvation you've already lost it....trusting in yourself rather than Jesus.

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

The Church is always called God's house, never is the Church called Christ's house. Being a member of the body is not an analogy for Christ's house.

Hi dirtfarmer,

The thing about it is God's house is Christ's house. Everything that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son.

I agree with you, being a member of the body is not the same analogy as the household. However, my comment was meant to convey they both are "analogies" that help us understand truths.

Being a member of the body is an analogy of our function in Christ.

Being a member of the household is an analogy of our relation in Christ.

 

[Nathan]

...and I should believe, who? You?
You do know being declared innocent is a legal action? Christ took our legal penalty of death. Christians are declared as righteous.

I'm just having a conversation with you, I am not trying to bring you under any teaching of mine.

I actually do know being declared innocent is a legal action. Christ did take the things that were written against us, and paid that for us.

He is the propitiation of our sin now. So not only did He take the debt the word had accumulated, He also still lives to make intercession for us.

He only does this for those who are in Him, who don't deny this from Him by choosing to believe in something they do as their right standing before God.

He did all this before God the Father. It's His covenant, and we are either apart of it in Him, or we are not covered by it outside of Him.

 

[JLB]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

We are not part of "His house" but members of his body. If speaking in hypotheticals, what would happen to the "body of Christ" if all members left? Is it possible for a hand to say to the arm, " I don't believe that I am a hand anymore", does it stop being a hand?

We are part of the household of Christ, if we continue to believe, if we continue in the faith, the hope of eternal life to the end.

And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Hebrews 3:5-6

• but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if...

If, means their is a condition.

We have a promise from God, with the condition we have faith in Christ; Trusting, Committing, and obeying Him; Faithful!


JLB

 

[Nathan]

I think "eternal life" is what people often get confused about with being justified in Christ. I think it's missed that all we have - including eternal life - is through faith.

This life we live now is a life of faith. We "have" all the things promised - we can be sure of them just as Abraham was certain about him being a father of an unumberable group.

But just as Abraham did not 'posses' that in his lifetime, neither do we 'posses' those things, we know to be true, in our lifetime.

We are justified through faith, which means we are continually justified through faith. We can't lay that faith down, turn away from it, deny and reject it, and still think that we get what it promises.

If I left my wife for another person, I surely wouldn't expect her to come over and make me dinner and take care of me like she did while I was with her. It's prideful to think God is somehow obligated to do such with us.

 

[Cygnus]

He only does this for those who are in Him, who don't deny this from Him by choosing to believe in something they do as their right standing before God.

So, lets think about this.....A person truly believes in Christ...is truly saved....Then changes their mind about Jesus....and then they're booted out of heaven.

Tell us, considering the person was a true christian, why would they change their mind about Christ?

 

[Nathan]

So, lets think about this.....A person truly believes in Christ...is truly saved....Then changes their mind about Jesus....and then they're booted out of heaven.

Tell us, considering the person was a true christian, why would they change their mind about Christ?

Hebrews 3
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.'
11 As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.'"
12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
15 As it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?
17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Sin hardens a persons heart. That is why someone will turn against Christ. Some decide sin is what they want instead of Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

So, fall away means a loss of salvation? Really?

Have you never heard fro God and rebelled?
Just the other day I was talking to a man who wanted to take one path and He said God wanted him to take a less desriable path. Finally He gave in and went the way he thought God would have him go. He didn't rebel.
The verse also says.... 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.' Notice they have not know Jesus ways....sounds like they were never saved.

 

[Nathan]

So, fall away means a loss of salvation? Really?

Have you never heard fro God and rebelled?
Just the other day I was talking to a man who wanted to take one path and He said God wanted him to take a less desriable path. Finally He gave in and went the way he thought God would have him go. He didn't rebel.
The verse also says.... 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.' Notice they have not know Jesus ways....sounds like they were never saved.

I think that the issue is not understanding salvation. Yes, if you fall away from God, you fall away from salvation. Salvation requires a Savior. Without a Savior you cannot have salvation.

If I listed the number, and ways, I've rebelled against God it might make some doubt I had ever come to know Christ.

What has to be understood is that sinning is not the same as falling away. Sin is what leads one to fall away. It's not an immediate thing - thank God.

I can see how a misunderstanding of salvation could also lead to a missunderstanding of falling away. Both are immediate as they set you on a path, and the outcome of each path is clear, but neither are instant in their outcome.

 

[Cygnus]

I think that the issue is not understanding salvation. Yes, if you fall away from God, you fall away from salvation. Salvation requires a Savior. Without a Savior you cannot have salvation.

If I listed the number, and ways, I've rebelled against God it might make some doubt I had ever come to know Christ.

What has to be understood is that sinning is not the same as falling away. Sin is what leads one to fall away. It's not an immediate thing - thank God.

I can see how a misunderstanding of salvation could also lead to a missunderstanding of falling away. Both are immediate as they set you on a path, and the outcome of each path is clear, but neither are instant in their outcome.

In my life I have fallen away from God a lot. Found myself surrounded by "evil". Sometimes it's for a moment sometimes longer. For some people it may even be a season or two. According to your religion if one dies in that fallen away state there is no salvation. I see that as heretical.
Why heretical? Because the bible says you can't be snatched from Jesus' or the fathers hand.
Those that fall away will be saved..as if escaping through fire...but won't get the rewards that will be given out at the Judgement Seat of Christ (bema seat)

 

[Nathan]

In my life I have fallen away from God a lot. Found myself surrounded by "evil". Sometimes it's for a moment sometimes longer. For some people it may even be a season or two. According to your religion if one dies in that fallen away state there is no salvation. I see that as heretical.
Why heretical? Because the bible says you can't be snatched from Jesus' or the fathers hand.
Those that fall away will be saved..as if escaping through fire...but won't get the rewards that will be given out at the Judgement Seat of Christ (bema seat)

I'm not sure if you try to rile someone up with your statements or not, but it's not Christ in you leading you to do so. There is no need for it when having a simple discussion.

It's not according to my religion that if someone dies in that fallen state there is no salvation. Sinning does not mean you have fallen away, it means you are being led away. A person falls away when they ultimately decide sin is what they want rather than to oppose it in Christ.

If someone turns from God and His salvation they are already away from it - physical death is not the deciding factor.

A person is not snatched when they leave on their own. Those that fall away will NOT be saved, and it's a dire lie to teach they will be.

Matthew 6:24 (ESV)
No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

2 Peter 2
17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

If Christ is your Lord you will dwell with Him, if satan is your lord you will dwell with him.

You cannot follow satan and receive what Christ gives to those who follow Him(Christ).

You cannot follow two directions at the same time.

 

[Cygnus]

It's not according to my religion that if someone dies in that fallen state there is no salvation. Sinning does not mean you have fallen away, it means you are being led away. A person falls away when they ultimately decide sin is what they want rather than to oppose it in Christ.

You lose it guys keep refusing to answer the question....why would a person fall away from Christ? Why would they ultimatly choose sin?

This question has to be addressed if you want to continue to try and make your point.

 

[Cygnus]

Those that fall away will NOT be saved, and it's a dire lie to teach they will be.

Have you never heard of the bema seat? It's quite different than the White Throne. I mentioned it in my previous post...and you skipped right over it.

 

[Nathan]

You lose it guys keep refusing to answer the question....why would a person fall away from Christ? Why would they ultimatly choose sin?

This question has to be addressed if you want to continue to try and make your point.

That is an impossible question to answer if you are not God.

The reason why a person falls away is because they choose sin over Christ.

The reason why the choose sin over Christ is unknown. Why does someone never choose to believe in Christ in the first place? Answer that question and you will have your answer for the other.

We know that it's because of sin, and Christ set us free from sin. When we sin, it is because we choose to - not because we have to.

 

[Nathan]

Have you never heard of the bema seat? It's quite different than the White Throne. I mentioned it in my previous post...and you skipped right over it.

I have heard of it. I did not skip over it, I purposefully left it out. Those who turn from Christ will not stand before it. Your statement, that preceded the mention of it, negated the need to respond to it.

Those who turn from Christ will not be saved.