Justification by Faith

[Nathan]

Which means you can't lose it.

"it" or "Him"?

You can walk away from Christ - you can deny Him. In doing that, you 'lose' salvation. You cannot keep what is His if you deny Him.

Sin is deceptive in this manner, and is always seeking to draw you away from Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

When we are presented with information, the Spirit of God inside of us does not sit back and say "you figure out if that is truth or a lie". The Spirit of God tells us if what we hear/see is true or false. The Spirit of God in us will NEVER tell us something is true if there is anything false to it.

Absolutely.
BUt, does everyone hear what the Spirit says with clarity?
And does everyone ever get confused between the voice of the Spirit and his own internal voice?
The spirit does no operate us like puppets.

We must not be fooled into thinking that as born from above believers - who have the very Spirit of God living in us, who is leading us each and every day to the eternal kingdom of God - that we will not know what is true and what is false.

Good advice.
But people are fooled all the time.
That's what confession is for.

Under the authority of the Lord Jesus the Christ, I can say before you that the truth can be known - the truth should be known - God has no pleasure in those who shrink back in doubt. Listen, when God speaks truth to us, He wants us to receive it and know it.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of interference; our own internal voice, the demands of the flesh (which is dead but won't lie down) the deceit of the Devil, the influence of friends and family, etc.
That's why the practice of the virtues is important.
That's why daily prayer is important.
That's why daily scripture reading is important.
The more familiar one is with the truth, the easier it is to identify the false.
If it were as easy as just listening to the Spirit then no Christian would ever sin and none of the warnings, admonitions and encouragement to persevere in doing righteousness would have been necessary to have been put in the scriptures.
But the Holy Spirit, who leads us into all truth, had the writers of the scriptures put them there because He knew we would need them.

 

[Jim Parker]

If you want I'd be glad to carry on this conversation in a different thread. I am not sure how the JW's and SDA believe concerning this, but I do not believe the other parts of their false teaching, so I am sure what I know would not line up with what they teach either.

They believe as you have stated; that the the lost are "brought to non-existence."
That is not what scripture teaches.
Rev 14:9-11
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
That passage renders the idea of being "brought too non-existence" an impossibility. You cannot be tormented if you are not in existence.

also: Luke 16:22-23a Now the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. And in hell, as he was in torment,...

You cannot be in hell and in torment if you do not exist.

At the judgment, Jesus will say to those who are condemned: "Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!" (Mat 25:41) There would be no need of eternal fire if the objective was to bring sinners to a state of non-existence.

The Church and the Jews before the church have consistently taught that sinners were consigned to hell as a place of torment and punishment for their sins. One must exist in order to be punished.

You're concept of being "brought to non-existence" is not Christian teaching.

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

They believe as you have stated; that the the lost are "brought to non-existence."
That is not what scripture teaches.
Rev 14:9-11
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
That passage renders the idea of being "brought too non-existence" an impossibility. You cannot be tormented if you are not in existence.

also: Luke 16:22-23a Now the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. And in hell, as he was in torment,...

You cannot be in hell and in torment if you do not exist.

At the judgment, Jesus will say to those who are condemned: "Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!" (Mat 25:41) There would be no need of eternal fire if the objective was to bring sinners to a state of non-existence.

The Church and the Jews before the church have consistently taught that sinners were consigned to hell as a place of torment and punishment for their sins. One must exist in order to be punished.

You're concept of being "brought to non-existence" is not Christian teaching.

iakov the fool

You don't understand what I mean by my statement, so you cannot declare if it is truth or not.

Like I said, this is not the thread to engage in.

 

[Jim Parker]

You don't understand what I mean by my statement, so you cannot declare if it is truth or not.

OK.
So, explain exactly what you mean by the lost being "brought to non-existence."
And please give scriptural support for the concept of being "brought to non-existence."

Thanks.

 

[Nathan]

OK.
So, explain exactly what you mean by the lost being "brought to non-existence."
And please give scriptural support for the concept of being "brought to non-existence."

Thanks.

I will try to start a thread on it sometime this week. I hesitate to promise an exact time.

 

[Nathan]

You are unable to answer even briefly? Now?
What a surprise!!!
(Not really)

I choose not to. You wanted me to explain, and you wanted me to provide textual support. That is not brief.

 

[Nathan]

Funny, I can do it in the time it took you to come back with yet another excuse.

You make me laugh, thank you.

You actually did not do it, because you don't believe the same thing I did.

 

[Jim Parker]

edited for rudeness reba

 

[Nathan]

So you are unable to say what you meant by what you said.
But you will try (possibly not succeed) to respond in the near future.....maybe.
And you'll have to do some research to find our what you meant by what you said.
And that doesn't seem odd to you.
curious

Ok, I'll admit, part of me is resistant to your constant barrage - so I keep up the discourse just to show you I am not going to fall for your attempted swipes.

Truth be told, it would not be so simple just to post what I know. Because it is going to turn into a discussion. And this thread that has been formed has nothing to do with the discussion.

So yes, it's my fault for not just letting it end - but I'm not going to continue it here because it's not anywhere near the topic - even though I do find humour in your jabs.

 

[Jim Parker]

Drop the rudeness, reba

 

[Nathan]

RIght.
In other words; you have no idea what you were talking about.
Please do not imagine that you fooled anyone.

 

[Nathan]

Ok sir Jim Parker , I created a thread in the theology forum because I know it will turn into a debate.

Have at it.

I will post in there as I can. Tomorrow for sure.

Here it is

 

[Papa Zoom]

 

[Nathan]

 

[reba]

closed for review Thread is now opened

 

[Cygnus]

You can walk away from Christ - you can deny Him. In doing that, you 'lose' salvation. You cannot keep what is His if you deny Him.

That's your religion....not mine.
Let me repeat....if you can lose your salvation....you did at the first sin.

 

[Nathan]

That's your religion....not mine.
Let me repeat....if you can lose your salvation....you did at the first sin.

My religion?

I'm not sure where you come up with loosing salvation at the first sin, that does not even make sense. That could only be true if salvation was based on you not sinning.

Salvation is in Christ - not because you don't sin. Leave Christ, you leave salvation.

It's sad that salvation has come to the point in people's minds that it's based on something we do.

 

[Cygnus]

My religion?

I'm not sure where you come up with loosing salvation at the first sin, that does not even make sense. That could only be true if salvation was based on you not sinning.

Salvation is in Christ - not because you don't sin. Leave Christ, you leave salvation.

It's sad that salvation has come to the point in people's minds that it's based on something we do.

Then how many does it take? 20 sins to no longer to be considered as remaining in Christ?
do you realize that your faith says you already lost your salvation if one is capable of losig it?

 

[Nathan]

Then how many does it take? 20 sins to no longer to be considered as remaining in Christ?
do you realize that your faith says you already lost your salvation if one is capable of losig it?

My faith does not say you already lost your salvation if one is capable of loosing it.

You still are not understanding the situation your presenting. Your absence of sin is not what saves you, therefore your committing of sins is not what 'un-saves' you. So there is not an 'amount', or lack of it, that is the condition of salvation.

Faith is the condition of salvation. We are saved through faith. It is a gift of God. You believe in His salvation, or you deny it.

You can only believe in His salvation if you deny ALL of your own ways of salvation. If you turn away from His salvation then you cannot be saved. Sin is what hardens a persons heart. He gives us salvation to set us free of sin. If you choose sin, and it hardens your heart, it is your choice.