Justification by Faith

[Cygnus]

Every time you leave your house do you consider yourself being snatched?

It's now time to point our you're mixing apples with oranges.

Leaving your house is not like leaving salvation. There are many reason to leave a house.

The only way one would leave true faith in Christ is through deception. Some one may lose their faith but considering they can't snatched from Christ hand they would remain saved. Even deception can try to steal you from Christ....and it may through your lifestyle...but your spiritual position as adopted son won't be lost.

Through out a seasoned christians life time deception comes in and steals, seizes, our relationship from Christ...but it can't seize our salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

If you willing choose to depart from Christ and serve Allah, no one snatched you out of His hand, you simply departed from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

and again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

You still seem to be having a problem with understanding fellowship and salvation.

Above you said...."you simply departed from the faith.".....true. That's all you did. Considering no one can snatch you....you're still saved.

Once again, if a "christian" actually left the "faith" they probably didn't have true faith and never were saved from the beginning.

 

[Nathan]

It's now time to point our you're mixing apples with oranges.

Leaving your house is not like leaving salvation. There are many reason to leave a house.

The only way one would leave true faith in Christ is through deception. Some one may lose their faith but considering they can't snatched from Christ hand they would remain saved. Even deception can try to steal you from Christ....and it may through your lifestyle...but your spiritual position as adopted son won't be lost.

Through out a seasoned christians life time deception comes in and steals, seizes, our relationship from Christ...but it can't seize our salvation.

Not apples and oranges, it is called an analogy.

Heb 3:1-6
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God’s house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

There are also many reasons to leave salvation. Three of which are monumental in leading people away from Christ.

1Jo 2:16
For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Deception cannot snatch someone. In order for deception to snatch, it would have to be taking them by force against their will. Deception will lead, but it will not force. Did the serpent force Adam to sin?

No one can take anything from a person in Christ by force - not even faith. If someone 'looses' faith, it was because they decided to turn from it. We are alive in Christ and have His power in us through the Spirit of God. In order for us to be 'deceived' we have to purposefully choose to not obey the Spirit. There is nothing about turning from faith in Christ that is forced on us, or stolen from us.

Think about your last statement. You are saying that many things can be forcefully taken from us in Christ, yet not salvation. Why do you think that anything can be forcefully taken from us in Christ?

 

[Cygnus]

Not apples and oranges, it is called an analogy.

Wow, you'd argue anything......it's an extremely poor analogy when you use it the way you use it. I leave my house everyday. Sometimes several times a day....it's not quite leaving your faith.

But for fun. lets play with your analogy....I leave my house willingly...then I come home to it once again. When I was gone my house still belonged to me.

 

[Cygnus]

Deception cannot snatch someone. In order for deception to snatch, it would have to be taking them by force against their will.

It most certainly is taking your faith from you against your will. But, you're just word playing now. Most people who present an incorrect theology do this.

At the beginning of the act of deception..you don't want to be deceived. But, the deception snatches you and you don't even realize it happened. The "snatching" doesn't always occur with someone kicking down your door and physically removing you from your house.

But, no need to worry about your salvation....OSAS....but your fellowship, different situation.

 

[Cygnus]

No one can take anything from a person in Christ by force - not even faith. If someone 'looses' faith, it was because they decided to turn from it.

Why would they decide to turn from it?

One answer would be they never really had it.

Salvation is a legal contract between you and God. If a wife walks out of her house, leaves her husband....she's still married to him.

I used to believe you could lose your salvation. I used to believe you could choose to not believe....and loose your salvation. Sounds good. Right? Then I realized you were saved by grace and mercy. Your salvation has been secured and doesn't depend on what one does or even thinks. Deception often creeps in. I was deceived then, just like you currently are.

 

[Nathan]

Wow, you'd argue anything......it's an extremely poor analogy when you use it the way you use it. I leave my house everyday. Sometimes several times a day....it's not quite leaving your faith.

But for fun. lets play with your analogy....I leave my house willingly...then I come home to it once again. When I was gone my house still belonged to me.

Oh boy, I think you missed the original intent.

The analogy was only meant to convey one thing, and one thing alone - not an entire subset of things.

If you walk out of your house, which is to say you "leave", does someone force you to do it. The entire analogy is to show we do "leave" things, "walk out" of them, without someone forcing us to do it.

Now, if we want to carry it further into your last statement, the "house" of faith is God's house - not ours.

 

[Nathan]

It most certainly is taking your faith from you against your will. But, you're just word playing now. Most people who present an incorrect theology do this.

At the beginning of the act of deception..you don't want to be deceived. But, the deception snatches you and you don't even realize it happened. The "snatching" doesn't always occur with someone kicking down your door and physically removing you from your house.

But, no need to worry about your salvation....OSAS....but your fellowship, different situation.

Please tell me how giving something up is the same as someone taking it from you - against your will? There are no word playing here at all. I am trying to have a rational conversation with you about this.

Sure, no one 'wants' to be deceived - and that's the point - a believer in Christ does not have to be deceived. It is our choice if we are deceived or not. If we had no choice about being deceived, then you could say it is by force. To say we are deceived without knowing it would be contradicting what we are told. The Spirit of God in us will not allow us to be unknowingly deceived.

We are commanded to not be deceived - many times throughout the Bible. We have a choice to be deceived or not - it is not done by force. "Snatching" is a word of force - against ones will. We cannot re-write and re-define passages to fit what we want them to say.

1Jo 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

Your right, we should never worry about salvation. It cannot be taken from us. What we should do is guard it, and cherish it, so that we will not view it as 'worthless' when times of temptation come our way - leading us to turn away(willfully) from the living God who is our eternal life.

Heb 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

 

[Nathan]

Why would they decide to turn from it?

One answer would be they never really had it.

Salvation is a legal contract between you and God. If a wife walks out of her house, leaves her husband....she's still married to him.

I used to believe you could lose your salvation. I used to believe you could choose to not believe....and loose your salvation. Sounds good. Right? Then I realized you were saved by grace and mercy. Your salvation has been secured and doesn't depend on what one does or even thinks. Deception often creeps in. I was deceived then, just like you currently are.

There are many reasons why someone will turn away from the faith. The number one reason is because they love a lie more than the truth.

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons

2Ti 3:1-5
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Salvation is not a legal contract between us and God. Salvation is a life in Christ. Salvation is what Christ did for us in order to secure(for Himself) our redemption. If you want to view it as a 'contract', it would only be between Christ and the Father.

A contract between us and God would mean He 'owes' us something because of something we have done. How prideful is that - how arrogant? We were dead in our sins when Christ died for us, and we were dead when God made us alive in Christ. We have no part in it.

We are betrothed to Christ at the moment. He desires us, He wants us, but just the same way I did not make my wife marry me - He is not going to force Himself onto us. It is available for us, but salvation is not forced on us.

If we choose to deny Him, we cannot keep what He is. We cannot have what He has without Him being in charge - our Lord.

 

[Cygnus]

Oh boy, I think you missed the original intent.

The analogy was only meant to convey one thing, and one thing alone - not an entire subset of things.

If you walk out of your house, which is to say you "leave", does someone force you to do it. The entire analogy is to show we do "leave" things, "walk out" of them, without someone forcing us to do it.

Now, if we want to carry it further into your last statement, the "house" of faith is God's house - not ours.

The analogy was poor. Walking out of ones house is not anything like walking away from your salvation.
Just because you can walk out of your house ...by choice....the house is still yours. Perhaps you can walk out "of Christ"...so to speak..Christ is still there.

 

[Cygnus]

Salvation is not a legal contract between us and God.

I beg to differ.

 

[Nathan]

The analogy was poor. Walking out of ones house is not anything like walking away from your salvation.
Just because you can walk out of your house ...by choice....the house is still yours. Perhaps you can walk out "of Christ"...so to speak..Christ is still there.

Well, I am sorry you feel the need to tear down rather than discus. Analogies are not meant to duplicate what you are speaking about, just to help one understand a deeper thought. They are supposed to be a little more shallow in order to grasp the idea.

Christ is not "ours". We dwell in His house, not our own. If we leave His house, it is not 'still ours'. You are correct, Christ does still stay in His house. He does not leave even when we do.

 

[Nathan]

I beg to differ.

I'm all ears.

Seriously, I have heard that people think its a contract, but that idea goes totally against the Gospel. I have never found evidence for it.

If it was a contract then that means part of our salvation depends on us. That is not the case. We either accept God's gift, or we reject it - we do nothing to earn it.

 

[Cygnus]

Well, I am sorry you feel the need to tear down rather than discus. Analogies are not meant to duplicate what you are speaking about, just to help one understand a deeper thought. They are supposed to be a little more shallow in order to grasp the idea.

Christ is not "ours". We dwell in His house, not our own. If we leave His house, it is not 'still ours'. You are correct, Christ does still stay in His house. He does not leave even when we do.

You can't compare salvation to leaving a house.
Besides Christ resides in you. Do you wish Him out with a broom?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Well, I am sorry you feel the need to tear down rather than discus. Analogies are not meant to duplicate what you are speaking about, just to help one understand a deeper thought. They are supposed to be a little more shallow in order to grasp the idea.

Christ is not "ours". We dwell in His house, not our own. If we leave His house, it is not 'still ours'. You are correct, Christ does still stay in His house. He does not leave even when we do.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

We are not part of "His house" but members of his body. If speaking in hypotheticals, what would happen to the "body of Christ" if all members left? Is it possible for a hand to say to the arm, " I don't believe that I am a hand anymore", does it stop being a hand?

 

[Cygnus]

I'm all ears.

Seriously, I have heard that people think its a contract, but that idea goes totally against the Gospel. I have never found evidence for it.

If it was a contract then that means part of our salvation depends on us. That is not the case. We either accept God's gift, or we reject it - we do nothing to earn it.

Is a covenant not a contract?

My contract was signed with Christ blood.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

We are not part of "His house" but members of his body. If speaking in hypotheticals, what would happen to the "body of Christ" if all members left? Is it possible for a hand to say to the arm, " I don't believe that I am a hand anymore", does it stop being a hand?

Right, being members of His body is another analogy. Just as being apart of His house.

Hebrews 3
3 For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses-as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself.
4 (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.)
5 Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later,
6 but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Just as Christ was faithful in Gods house as a Son. And we are also the same in His house if we hold fast our confidence and boasting in our hope.

Sad thing is sometimes a part of the body can become infected and die. When it does, it is not a part of the body anymore. Thankfully the body is usually quick to help fight off diseases so that the body part that's sick will be healed rather than die.

 

[Nathan]

Is a covenant not a contract?

My contract was signed with Christ blood.

Again, I've heard this taught before, but it does not have any Scriptural backing.

Do you believe this because you were taught it, or do you believe it because you know it apart from being taught from someone? I'm just curious because it was not till I stepped away from someone's teaching did I learn the truth.

The covenant is between Christ and God. That is why only those in Him are apart of the covenant. Not because of something we have done, but because of Who we are in.

Romans 11:27 (ESV)
"and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

God does not take away our sins because of something we do, not because of anything we do. God takes away our sins because of the covenant Christ made with His blood.

We are then placed in Christ because He fulfilled the requirements of God. If we choose to believe we accept our placement in Christ as a member of His covenant.

If we choose to not believe we reject(deny) our placement in Christ as a member of His covenant. There is no forgiveness of sins outside of His covenant.

When we feed on His flesh and drink His blood we receive the 'benefit' of His eternal life from His covenant.

As Paul would say, we can't eat at the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Those two tables are in two different houses. Which one are you eating at?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Right, being members of His body is another analogy. Just as being apart of His house.

Hebrews 3
3 For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses-as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself.
4 (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.)
5 Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later,
6 but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Just as Christ was faithful in Gods house as a Son. And we are also the same in His house if we hold fast our confidence and boasting in our hope.

Sad thing is sometimes a part of the body can become infected and die. When it does, it is not a part of the body anymore. Thankfully the body is usually quick to help fight off diseases so that the body part that's sick will be healed rather than die.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

The Church is always called God's house, never is the Church called Christ's house. Being a member of the body is not an analogy for Christ's house.

 

[Cygnus]

Do you believe this because you were taught it, or do you believe it because you know it apart from being taught from someone?

...and I should believe, who? You?
You do know being declared innocent is a legal action? Christ took our legal penalty of death. Christians are declared as righteous.