Justification by Faith

[Nathan]

Welp, you can go on trying to maintain your eternal life...but, I don't have to. Christ Jesus secured it for me already.

....did you know overtime you sin.....you are not abiding in Christ?

Even more false accusations and slander. I never said I can, or try, to maintain eternal life. Christ The Lord is eternal life, He didn't secure it - He is it.

I do know I sin, but your lying when you say I am not abiding in Christ. The state of being in Christ is not ever sinning. God did not put us in Christ after we stopped sinning, He put us in Christ while we were still dead in sin.

There is rest in Christ. He wants us to abide in His rest.

The devil goes around seeking to lead people away from Christs rest, to devour them. Do you know the definition of the Greek word for devil?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Slander involves the oral "publication" of a defamatory remark that is heard by another, which injures the subject's reputation or character. Slander can occur through the use of a hand gesture or verbal communication that is not recorded. Libel, on the other hand, is the written "publication" of a defamatory remark that has the tendency to injure another's reputation or character. Libel also includes a publication on radio, audio or video. Even though this would be considered oral, or verbal, communication to someone it is actually considered to be libel because it is published in a transfixed form.

Either way, we would all do well to try to address only the issues and points others make when discussing this contentious issue.

 

[Nathan]

.....and "murder" by dictionary standards is only when someone physically takes the life of another.....:wink

Intentions are the heart of the matter.

 

[Papa Zoom]

We all need a bit of comic relief at the moment. ;)

 

[ezra]

Are you saying all men don't sin and all men don't fall short of Gods glory?

are you adding to my post with words i never said? i do not agree with calvinism teaching on the plan of salvation. have a good afternoon

 

[Jim Parker]

True that salvation isn't forced. But it does seem that it's being taught here that once a person is saved, they must, by their own effort, persevere or they will lose their salvation. Even belief isn't completely by our own effort right? It's the Holy Spirit at work in us that draws us to God. True believers grow in Christ. They are new creatures. The old is gone. And they will be completed in Christ. That is a promise of God. Only by a work of the Holy Spirit in our lives can we live faithfully. And since God is for us, we will complete the journey. Unless our faith was not genuine. Perseverance is the mark of a true believer in Jesus.

All you have said is true.
But it is not the whole truth.

First, you seem to conflate "salvation" and "eternal life."
All of mankind has been saved from the wages of sin which is physical death; all mankind will be resurrected immortal.

Second, only those who obey Christ will have eternal life. (Eternal life is NOT the same thing as immortality.On can have immortality in hell for ever.)

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death

Salvation is from the wages of sin which is death and death and corruption. (Returning to dust)
Salvation from eternal, physical death was gained for all mankind by the cross.

Eternal life will be given only to those who obey Jesus commands.
Keeping Jesus' commands requires the help of the Holy Spirit AND each individual's faithful effort.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

And BTW, persevere and endure are listed as synonymous by dictionary.com.
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/persevere

They are similar but not exactly the same.
The word "endure" carries the nuance of bearing up under pressure to which one is subjected; it is a response to an outside force.
The word "persevere" caries the nuance of refusing to give up in the pursuit of some goal as in persevering in ones effort to overcome an obstacle.

So one would endure persecution for one's faith but persevere in the pursuit of holiness. (Mat 11:12)


iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

no time for games have a good day

I was very serious. A leap of faith is not founded on evidence or facts.

 

[ezra]

I was very serious. A leap of faith is not founded on evidence or facts.

and i am serious to no time for it

 

[Jim Parker]

depends on what the leap is

And YOU said "No lime for games."??

 

[Nathan]

All you have said is true.
But it is not the whole truth.

First, you seem to conflate "salvation" and "eternal life."
All of mankind has been saved from the wages of sin which is physical death; all mankind will be resurrected immortal.

Second, only those who obey Christ will have eternal life. (Eternal life is NOT the same thing as immortality.On can have immortality in hell for ever.)

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death

Salvation is from the wages of sin which is death and death and corruption. (Returning to dust)
Salvation from eternal, physical death was gained for all mankind by the cross.

Eternal life will be given only to those who obey Jesus commands.
Keeping Jesus' commands requires the help of the Holy Spirit AND each individual's faithful effort.

iakov the fool

The wages of sin is physical death and spiritual separation. Both, not just one.

Therefore anything you place onto the account of the physical also has to be placed onto the account of spiritual.

Conclusion being, someone cannot have immortality and be separated from God.

1 Timothy 6
15......he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

Immortality and eternal life are only found in Christ. Those not in Him have neither.

 

[Jim Parker]

Conclusion being, someone cannot have immortality and be separated from God.

Scripture says otherwise.

1Co 15:51-57
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?"
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

By His resurrection the grave has no power to hold any human being.
At the judgment those who have done good will receive eternal life and those who have done evil will suffer the second death. The second death does not cause a resurrected, immortal, incorrupt person to cease to exist. (As in the "annihilation teaching of the JWs and 7th Day Adventists) but an eternal existence separated from God.
Immortality refers to the physical body only. (As best I can discern.)


John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Rev 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[OzSpen]

and i am serious to no time for it

You're avoiding the issue I raise of faith founded on fact and not a leap of faith.

 

[Nathan]

Scripture says otherwise.

1Co 15:51-57
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?"
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

By His resurrection the grave has no power to hold any human being.
At the judgment those who have done good will receive eternal life and those who have done evil will suffer the second death. The second death does not cause a resurrected, immortal, incorrupt person to cease to exist. (As in the "annihilation teaching of the JWs and 7th Day Adventists) but an eternal existence separated from God.
Immortality refers to the physical body only.

John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Rev 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Paul is saying that those in Christ will put on immortality. He never stated those who are not in Christ will have immortality. Everyone outside of Christ is corrupt - those who are outside of Christ will not be raised incorruptible.

Paul does state God alone has immortality, so for a person to have it they would have to be with God.

We know that those who are not in Christ will not be with God - therefore they will not have immortality.

The second death destroys both body and soul.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

If you understand that when a body is "killed" that it no longer exists, then you understand that a soul that is destroyed is also brought to non-existence.

Everyone who has died, and has yet to die, is awaiting the judgment of God. Those in Christ do not fear because they know they will be raised imperishable and dwell with God.

Those who are not in Christ are awaiting the judgement of God, where His justice will be served. God is not unjust, and will deal justly with everyone in the manner He has set forth - but none will receive immortality outside of those in Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

Let me put it to you this way....I believe if it were possible to use your salvation.....you already have. You haven't done enough or followed enough to remain saved. In fact nobody can do enough or follow enough.

I find that to be an incoherent statement.

 

[OzSpen]

Salvation isn't forced.

Settle down. I accused you of nothing. I responded directly to the issue and the logical end of your position. If people can lose salvation by what they do or don't do, then they can keep it by what they do and don't do. That human effort and there's no way to slice it any differently. The result of such thinking is people tend to take their eyes off of Jesus and focus on their works.

That verse in no way suggest unequivocally that he's addressing brothers and sisters in Christ.

No. It should be analyzed from within the Bible as a whole. One verse doe not a doctrine make.

I agree. Iron sharpens Iron.

I don't agree. What's important is not what one thinks of Heb 3 but what the whole council of God reveals.

Or it's clouded yours.

I probably left a lot of verses out. What? You want a NT commentary from PZ?
Oz

[/QUOTE]

Unconditional election is forced salvation because people do not have the opportunity to accept or reject it.

I've provided biblical evidence to demonstrate that people can lose salvation. They can fall away from the faith. I have not invented it. I've provided Scripture to support the statements but you don't seem to want to listen to that view that is contrary to OSAS.

The Bible as a whole demonstrates that brothers & sisters in Christ can fall away from the faith.

I hope you mean 'the whole counsel of God' and not 'the whole council of God'.

Oz

 

[Papa Zoom]

So what did you do today newly retired guy Papa Zoom ?

"Well I took a very nice nap"

What else did you do today?

"Well I went online to a Christian discussion forum where my brothers and sisters in Christ argue incessantly about matters dealing with salvation."

Wow. Sounds fun! Think I'll go smack my head against that concrete slab instead.

 

[OzSpen]

If the Bible didn't have other pesky verses that indicate to me (as well as biblical scholars) that once genuine faith in Christ comes into a believer's life, there's a natural process of growth and maturity to follow. And the promise of God that we will be kept. We will not be lost. Not if, but since. Looking at the whole of Scripture, I can find no other way to conclude that a true believer will remain in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Looking at the whole of the Bible, I can find no other way to conclude than that those who persevere to the end will be saved.

 

[OzSpen]

So what did you do today newly retired guy Papa Zoom ?

"Well I took a very nice nap"

What else did you do today?

"Well I went online to a Christian discussion forum where my brothers and sisters in Christ argue incessantly about matters dealing with salvation."

Wow. Sounds fun! Think I'll go smack my head against that concrete slab instead.

Papa,

You were the one who stated in #119 that 'Iron sharpens Iron'. Are you now making that the equivalent of smacking your head against a concrete slab?

Oz

 

[Papa Zoom]

Unconditional election is forced salvation because people do not have the opportunity to accept or reject it.

I've provided biblical evidence to demonstrate that people can lose salvation. They can fall away from the faith. I have not invented it. I've provided Scripture to support the statements but you don't seem to want to listen to that view that is contrary to OSAS.

The Bible as a whole demonstrates that brothers & sisters in Christ can fall away from the faith.

I hope you mean 'the whole counsel of God' and not 'the whole council of God'.

Oz[/QUOTE]
I don't know how I feel about unconditional election. I'm not a Calvinist.
I know you're provided biblical evidence to support your position and I appreciate that. But there is also counter evidence. I think so much of our salvation depends on God and the Holy Spirit that genuine believers will be preserved or carried through. However it's best said. But only genuine believers. There are many who profess faith but that faith isn't real. Those folks will walk away. Some won't but Jesus will say He never knew them.

I did mean counsel. Huh, my bad.