Lets talk about homosexuality. + my experience being a lesbian

[Rookie]

I may post in there a time or two, just will be when I'm in the right frame of mind and such. And will probably be ignoring most responses to my posts.

You know, meeting a person from that side of the spectrum who is not hostile, and is willing to even have their position challenged is a remarkable feat you have, you're the only person I met who's done that. Respond if you wish to don't if you don't.

 

[Riven]

So far as the last question.... if I believe Christianity is true and I want to maintain my relationship with God, why would I convert to another religion?

In that case, I guess it wouldn't make sense if you did. It's just that I see many people struggling with being a Christian while also being gay. You're almost treated like a second class Christian because of what you are.

 

[Christ_empowered]

One of many problems with modern churches ️

Also…hatred of poor people liberals and immigrants…

 

[Tenchi]

I'm a lesbian. I have found women attractive since as long as I can remember. When I was a very small child (probably about 5) I would feel confusion when women around me used to oggle and comment on "sexy" men on television. It felt confusing and even a bit gross. Women, however, took my breath away. Such beauty! I didn't know what lesbianism was though so I didn't think much about this.

I'm assuming that, because from very early on your thoughts were of this sort, you believe you must, therefore, be lesbian. Your reasoning seems to be: If I was thinking this way as a young child, my thoughts about the beauty of women has to have been congenital, a feature of my self, like my eye color, or the shape of my hands or face. Well, why? Children think all sorts of unusual things, and have all sorts of widely-varying and peculiar impulses, and are deeply impressionable. Certainly, the devil knows this. And he works as much as he can to insinuate into children feelings and thoughts that will contort and corrupt them. Sometimes, he does this obliquely through social influences (popular media, cultural currents, public education) but also directly, as he did with Judas (for an extreme example - Luke 22:3; John 13:2). Why people tend to think children are exempt from demonic manipulation, I don't know. The Bible reveals quite graphically that children can be taken over by the demonic:

Mark 9:17-22
17 And one of the crowd answered Him, "Teacher, I brought You my son, possessed with a spirit which makes him mute;
18 and whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and stiffens out. I told Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not do it."
19 And He *answered them and *said, "O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!"
20 They brought the boy to Him. When he saw Him, immediately the spirit threw him into a convulsion, and falling to the ground, he began rolling around and foaming at the mouth.
21 And He asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?" And he said, "From childhood.
22 "It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!"

That young children have unnatural thoughts and feelings concerning their own sex does not, then, have to mean they are biologically disposed to homosexuality. There is always a spiritual realm within which we all move, occupied by demonic powers that are constantly working to bring people into confusion, bondage and destruction. What better way to accomplish these things than by warping the sexual impulse - one of the most powerful impulses God has given to us?

I actually realized I was lesbian very late. I was 18. Through my teen years I just thought I was bisexual but "Picky" with males. I tried dating boys but I was awkward, grossed out and didn't want to do anything outside of normal friendship things. I just assumed it is because I was an "innocent" girl and also an abuse survivor.

I don't know how aware you might be of this, but homosexuality is often associated with early childhood sexual abuse (among other things). What a clever thing it is for the devil to manipulate your thoughts and feelings as a child and then cement them by way of childhood abuse and the lies of the world about human sexuality over which he has enormous control.

Fast forward to today. We live together "socially married" and are happier and closer than ever.

??? There is no such thing as "socially married" in God's eyes. And that you are happy and close does not legitimize your "marriage" as far as He's concerned. Whenever we stray from God's will and design for things, we move toward destruction. First of all, and most awfully, doing things our way keeps us from truly knowing and walking with Him. God is determined that we do things His way; if we won't, the price of our self-will is the loss of joyful fellowship with Him.

I did share my experience of this "lesbian dating a man" once on a different non religion related forum and was met with intense hostility. How can a woman be gay and with a man???

There are no gay people, only sinners in need of salvation and transformation. This is why Paul the apostle wrote the following:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

There are no Christian alcoholics, or Christian drug addicts, or Christian abuse victims, or Christian homosexuals, only Christians, "new creatures in Christ" for whom "old things are passed away and, behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17). When Christians define themselves in terms of their sinful past, they reveal how little they know, and believe, of their new identity in Jesus Christ. In him, all sinners have been "made new," freed from the godless, sin-bound person they were, and made a "joint-heir with Christ" (Romans 8:17) a "saint" (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2), a "temple of the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) a person united with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection and thus made free of the power of Self and Sin (Romans 6:1-11).

Anyway. I'd like to state my opinion now on homosexuality and faith. This is merely my opinion so please bare this in mind. Yours may differ and that is absolutely fine.

Well, as far as God is concerned, there is no "your truth and my truth," there is only His truth. And when we don't submit to His truth, we sin and make ourselves an enemy of God. For Christians, then, all opinions are to be subject to what God says to His children in His word, the Bible. Where their opinions diverge from His, those opinions are in the wrong and ought to be abandoned.

There is no such thing as "former gay". To say this is actually sinful. Here's why I think this: My experience as a gay person clearly shows me it is a mental illness you are born with.

Is this what God indicates about homosexuality in His word, the Bible? No. Read Romans 1:18-32.

Gay is a mental illness. Humans are a type of animal.

No, not according to God's word. Humans are not animals, but are special creatures made uniquely in God's image.

If gay is normal for a species then said species may die out due to them not reproducing. This totally dismantles the belief some gay people have that "everybody is gay. there is no such thing as straight".

Yup. If the Theory of Evolution were true, homosexuality would have been selected out as a counter-survival trait and removed from the gene pool. God says homosexuality has to do with human rebellion against Him and the judgment He renders upon such rebellion, letting wicked people sink further and further into the depravity their rebellion always produces. Again, read Romans 1:18-32. The devil gets in on this, too, making a bad situation much worse.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

We believe other mental illness' are illness' for the same basic reason. They cause humans to behave in a way that challenges their health and state of being alive. Such as depression for example.

God says that very often (though, not always) psychological disturbances (aka "mental illnesses") are products of living apart from His prescribed manner of living. The pathologizing of depression, fear, neuroses, addictions, etc. are in service of the psychological industry, which seeks to keep people perennially bound in their psychological problems by convincing them they are helpless victims of disease that can only be managed (with lots of drugs and therapy), not cured. This isn't what God says. Fear, obsession, depression, delusion - these all result from living apart from His control and truth.

We ALL sin. It is God's job to judge not man.

No, God tells His children to "judge righteous judgment," and not to judge hypocritically. Every thinking, morally-careful person MUST make judgments constantly. We ought not condemn anyone, putting them beyond God's redemptive power, consigning them to wickedness and hell, but we most certainly are to call a thing evil when God has said that it is.

I do believe we can still classify it as a sexual orientation however. It is a sexual orientation. But it is an unnatural one clearly caused by a biological fault. Aka an illness.

No, this isn't what God says in His word. And the research data has never actually shown a clear, definitive biological basis for homosexuality but a psycho-social one. Culture, family, personality, education - these all have far more to do with homosexuality than biology. And God's word indicates, that, at bottom, homosexuality has to do with human rebellion toward Him - as all sin does.

Am I gay? Yes. Am I growing in faith? Yes. Am I attracted to my partner? Yes.

No, you aren't gay. But, like everyone else, you're a sinner. Thankfully, God has a remedy for sinners: Jesus Christ.

Are you truly growing in your faith? Maybe. You have a great deal to learn about it, however, of your OP is anything to go by.

So in conclusion I am exposing the lies people are feeding you. You can be non practicing gay and perfectly happy and fulfilled. Being gay and having an uncontrollable urge to be promiscuous unless you are "accepted" is a lie. A gay person CAN be in love with the opposite sex. The cause of the initial attraction is just different that is all.

I understand it is a hard concept to wrap your head around.

No. Your ideas are pretty straightforward - though seriously mistaken in several ways. See above.

it can show young people they are not automatically hated by God just because they fancy the same sex. This is one of the biggest reasons why young turn away from God. Society FALSELY teaches people that God is hateful, controlling and restrictive. It's all lies!

God loves sinners; and so, He has made a way through Jesus for them to depart their lives of sin and live in daily, holy fellowship with Himself. But if they don't, if lost sinners persist in their own way rather than His, God will judge and punish them with eternal hell. God is love, absolutely. But He is also HOLY and will not accept sin.

Unrepentant sinners - young or old - turn from God because they are rebellious and wicked and love being so and don't want to be told that they are wicked, or to think they must give an account one day to their Maker for their sinful living.

John 3:19-20
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

John 7:7
7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.

Romans 1:21-25
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God tells His children to "judge righteous judgment," and not to judge hypocritically. Every thinking, morally-careful person MUST make judgments constantly. We ought not condemn anyone, putting them beyond God's redemptive power, consigning them to wickedness and hell, but we most certainly are to call a thing evil when God has said that it is.

This is the truth of the gospel Jesus taught. Gods' love is also a matter of discipline, not loving acceptance of everything. I talked to both men and women about it and told them I believe their lifestyle is wrong.
I said I believe the Bible says same sex attraction is sin. I traced it out. My position is that Jesus affirmed the OT, which says have offspring which couldn't happen between same sex. I told them I loved them and because I believe God will judge sinners. I told them I would never mention Jesus to them again if they didn't want to hear about him, but I could live in opace with them.
I think that's why the religious saw Jesus as a sinner. I believe Jesus corrected his listeners wherever he went without accepting sinful behavior.

 

[Riven]

Tenchi

Gay people exist. There is no praying away your sexuality. That would be like a straight person praying away their heterosexuality. It's ridiculous.

 

[Tenchi]

Gay people exist. There is no praying away your sexuality. That would be like a straight person praying away their heterosexuality. It's ridiculous.

Sinners exist, absolutely. God says so. And history amply demonstrates that He's right. But as far as God is concerned, there are no Christian homosexuals, or Christian gossips, or Christian adulterers, or Christian liars, etc. All repentant sinners of whatever stripe who trust in Christ are made new in him, "old things are passed away" the Bible says and "all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

It's an incredibly powerful and subtle maneuver of the devil to get sinners to identify with their sin such that they define themselves by it. What better way to anchor them in sin - even after they've got free of it - than to have them think their sin is biological, like the shape of their ears, or the color of their eyes. Well, God says it isn't. I'm going with what He says, Riven, not what you and the secular culture that you're parroting says. It would be truly ridiculous to place your thinking above His.

God doesn't ever tell us to "pray away our sexuality" but to conform it to His will and way. He made us sexual beings, so our sexuality is a good thing - but only so long as our sexuality is ordered and constrained by His will. When it isn't, human sexuality rapidly descends into perversion and corruption.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Tenchi

Gay people exist. There is no praying away your sexuality. That would be like a straight person praying away their heterosexuality. It's ridiculous.

The Word of God is quite clear. Compromise it at your own risk.

 

[jasonc]

Tenchi

Gay people exist. There is no praying away your sexuality. That would be like a straight person praying away their heterosexuality. It's ridiculous.

That logic is no different.war and any victim of trauma can get PTSD and then stating I can be mad all I want ,and the daily problems of treating it .I can ignore the problems and no law agent or job has a right to punish me when I mad ..

Such as the killer in Maine . He likely had more then PTSD and was a vet .

You can however strive to control the PTSD and have bad days and recognize the anger and manic a depression cycle and fight it .

We all have sin dispositions and struggle or ought to deny it and that is command .

Mine is PTSD and lust . Anxiety for me can get bad .I have to remind myself of how weak I am and God is great often. I fail at it often

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno

The concept of homosexuality is relatively recent…19th century. Until psychoanalytic theory hit the big time sexual behavior defined an individual’s sexuality not inclinations and definitely not an orientation.

PTSD is one of the more forgiving mental health labels . I think it’s the point at which shrinks have to acknowledge the I’ll effects of life on people…

Whereas with say bipolar or schizophrenia it’s supposedly a mystery brain disorder that makes the madness happen.

I dunno I’m of the opinion that some people who repent will be able to marry etc. many will not. Celibacy is the only viable option for the Christian outside of marriage. It is what it is…

 

[daninthelionsden]

May we all receive the healing knowledge that our Lord be our main focus in our hearts and minds that He may save us from the king of lies and save us from ourselves as we pass through our darkest hours.

 

[Riven]

Sinners exist, absolutely. God says so. And history amply demonstrates that He's right. But as far as God is concerned, there are no Christian homosexuals, or Christian gossips, or Christian adulterers, or Christian liars, etc. All repentant sinners of whatever stripe who trust in Christ are made new in him, "old things are passed away" the Bible says and "all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Thee televangelists I see on tv paint a very different picture. There are many who choose to use God for their own personal gain still claim the moral high ground.

It's an incredibly powerful and subtle maneuver of the devil to get sinners to identify with their sin such that they define themselves by it. What better way to anchor them in sin - even after they've got free of it - than to have them think their sin is biological, like the shape of their ears, or the color of their eyes. Well, God says it isn't. I'm going with what He says, Riven, not what you and the secular culture that you're parroting says. It would be truly ridiculous to place your thinking above His.

Imagine how strange it would be if the bible said everyone with a certain eye color is living in sin. Or better yet, imagine it said being straight was a sin. If so, do you think you'd be able to change your sexuality in order to avoid sin?

God doesn't ever tell us to "pray away our sexuality" but to conform it to His will and way. He made us sexual beings, so our sexuality is a good thing - but only so long as our sexuality is ordered and constrained by His will. When it isn't, human sexuality rapidly descends into perversion and corruption.

When people post here and say that they're dealing with same-sex attraction, one of the first things other Christians tell them to do is pray. There are also these "pray the gay away" conversion camps that are just horrific and don't actually work, and people feel like crap just for being themselves.

The Word of God is quite clear. Compromise it at your own risk.

It's a risk I'm willing to take. People should always stand up for what they believe in. Fear of hell is no excuse, because any god that puts his creations there for having a difference of opinion is not a god worthy of worship. But is instead a vindictive tyrant, no different than the despots who managed to take power in many countries in the 20th century.

That logic is no different.war and any victim of trauma can get PTSD and then stating I can be mad all I want ,and the daily problems of treating it .I can ignore the problems and no law agent or job has a right to punish me when I mad ..

Such as the killer in Maine . He likely had more then PTSD and was a vet .

You can however strive to control the PTSD and have bad days and recognize the anger and manic a depression cycle and fight it .

We all have sin dispositions and struggle or ought to deny it and that is command .

Mine is PTSD and lust . Anxiety for me can get bad .I have to remind myself of how weak I am and God is great often. I fail at it often

Sure. None of us are perfect. But it does no good to constantly tell gay people that what they genuinely feel is wrong or that they can somehow change it by becoming a Christian.

 

[jasonc]

Thee televangelists I see on tv paint a very different picture. There are many who choose to use God for their own personal gain still claim the moral high ground.


Imagine how strange it would be if the bible said everyone with a certain eye color is living in sin. Or better yet, imagine it said being straight was a sin. If so, do you think you'd be able to change your sexuality in order to avoid sin?


When people post here and say that they're dealing with same-sex attraction, one of the first things other Christians tell them to do is pray. There are also these "pray the gay away" conversion camps that are just horrific and don't actually work, and people feel like crap just for being themselves.


It's a risk I'm willing to take. People should always stand up for what they believe in. Fear of hell is no excuse, because any god that puts his creations there for having a difference of opinion is not a god worthy of worship. But is instead a vindictive tyrant, no different than the despots who managed to take power in many countries in the 20th century.


Sure. None of us are perfect. But it does no good to constantly tell gay people that what they genuinely feel is wrong or that they can somehow change it by becoming a Christian.

Yet we don't say that to alcoholics .we don't say it's ok to sit in a bar ,smell alcohol and taste it .avoid it .remove it from your house. They go beyond that and eschew any addiction causing substance. Not even pain meds .
To God it's a sin,and all sin is destructive .

The very nature of that is not from God. Thinking about sin is against the bible .it happens and we fail but doesn't mean we have to feed it

I can avoid my triggers . If I know what they are .I can avoid things that trigger lust .we have a choice .not even the Calvinist says that I have no choice but to act on my nature if I get saved.

They preach renewal of the mind.

Now then I wasn't raped,abused and I had thoughts of liking boys my age when I was a boy .I acted on it as an adult .i still get the desire but I don't feed it .others struggle i get it .

 

[D-D-W]

I had thoughts of liking boys my age when I was a boy .I acted on it as an adult .i still get the desire but I don't feed it .others struggle i get it .

I applaud your ongoing struggle. May God give you the strength to continue on.

As fallen humans, we all struggle against all kinds of sins. I see your struggle as no different than anyone else's.

 

[jasonc]

It not praying the gay away but to take it to God . Only God can change .

Funny we as a culture encourage aa,na which have the idea of a higher power .

PTSD groups often have an element of that .it's not good to ignore that addiction and psychological issues do have a spiritual element to them .

I have been in meetings where the group at large bought nde over the idea of the biblical view of life after death .

I could have said nay but that was addressed and I know they wouldn't listen so I didn't . I use the PTSD meetings to understand what my issues are and not necessarily as a sole means as getting help.

It does help much with venting .if you aren't a cop ,EMT ,vet of war ,or victim of trauma .you wouldn't get the dark humor release .

By laughing at death ,it helps healing .

 

[Rookie]

Imagine how strange it would be if the bible said everyone with a certain eye color is living in sin. Or better yet, imagine it said being straight was a sin. If so, do you think you'd be able to change your sexuality in order to avoid sin?

I don't know if you're pro-homosexual or not, but I believe you've fallen for the trap of claiming temptation as your identity. Sexuality is no different from every area of life.

Being tempted to take a snicker bar from the store doesn't make you a thief, actually taking it does
Being tempted to lie to your parents about where you went doesn't make you a liar, actually lying does
Being tempted to have sex with your girl doesn't make you lose your virginity, actually doing it is.
Being tempted to try to touch a woman you find attractive doesn't make you a sexual violater. The attraction is not sinful necessarily, but acting on it is when it becomes sin.
Being tempted to act on your attraction to the same sex doesn't make you a homosexual, or "gay" or "lesbian", but obeying the temptation and falling does make you so

Just because you have that attraction doesn't mean you should obey it. Humans fall for the lie that just because they want to do something, are attraction to something, or have a craving for something or someone, they should satisfy that craving, they don't have to. I get tempted numerous times daily, but does it mean that I should just be trying to lengthen my list with every human I meet? Of course not, that's where the whole theme of, "Crucify & mortify the flesh daily, kill the flesh daily, walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the flesh" themes come from you know?

You can feel it, but you don't need nor should you act on it. You know that Riven.

It's a risk I'm willing to take. People should always stand up for what they believe in. Fear of hell is no excuse, because any god that puts his creations there for having a difference of opinion is not a god worthy of worship. But is instead a vindictive tyrant, no different than the despots who managed to take power in many countries in the 20th century.

I wouldn't risk missing eternity with Christ on a technicality, that seems quite foolish, especially for a momentary and fleeting pleasure that is there one moment and leaves me desolate the next. And Riven you are stepping way of of what's Divinely Defined in Scripture, to your own personal opinion, which is very flawed, and satan is eagerly and happily watching his lie working it's course.

1 Corinthians 10:5 "5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

Just because God doesn't let humans do whatever they want to do and have their way, it means he isn't fair? When a rebellious teenager wants to stay out past 2 am, and his parents say no, are they not worthy of respect? When a student wants a teacher to give them the answers so they won't have to do the work & study for it, and the teacher denies them, is the teacher not worthy of respect? If a police officer arrests a criminal who's been stealing for the gas station store, and refuses to let him go because he wants what he wants, is the officer not worthy of honor? If a father forbids his daughter from dating a guy that he knows only wants her for sex, but she's so "head over heels" and blinded by "love", is her father, who's her only objective voice, not worthy of honor (when as a parent, he never had anything to gain by her birth, or anything to gain from her life, or anything to gain or lose, personally with her sex decision?)

See humans want to do whatever the world they want to do, then when the consequences come in they want to blame God. They want the pleasure without the aftermath. They want the fun but not the consequences for doing whatever the devil they wanted to do. They get mad at God for trying to save them from the fatal obstacle up ahead that their blinded by human reasoning and desire to see, then blame God for crashing into it at 100 mph+.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Thee televangelists I see on tv paint a very different picture. There are many who choose to use God for their own personal gain still claim the moral high ground.


Imagine how strange it would be if the bible said everyone with a certain eye color is living in sin. Or better yet, imagine it said being straight was a sin. If so, do you think you'd be able to change your sexuality in order to avoid sin?


When people post here and say that they're dealing with same-sex attraction, one of the first things other Christians tell them to do is pray. There are also these "pray the gay away" conversion camps that are just horrific and don't actually work, and people feel like crap just for being themselves.


It's a risk I'm willing to take. People should always stand up for what they believe in. Fear of hell is no excuse, because any god that puts his creations there for having a difference of opinion is not a god worthy of worship. But is instead a vindictive tyrant, no different than the despots who managed to take power in many countries in the 20th century.


Sure. None of us are perfect. But it does no good to constantly tell gay people that what they genuinely feel is wrong or that they can somehow change it by becoming a Christian.

There are many who have gone through conversion from homosexuality successfully and their stories are suppressed. God knows what's best for us. Homosexuality is not. Those who live in contradiction to who God made them to be are blaming Him for not making them according to their will. We are to seek His will and not our own. Live by His word of Truth and not the words of lies of Man.

 

[Tenchi]

Imagine how strange it would be if the bible said everyone with a certain eye color is living in sin. Or better yet, imagine it said being straight was a sin. If so, do you think you'd be able to change your sexuality in order to avoid sin?

This is all resting on the false idea that homosexuality is biological. It isn't. Not only does God's word deny that it is, male biology itself indicates that homosexuality is not "in the genes." And research into homosexuality is also far from conclusive about homosexuality being congenital. But even if it was, homosexuality is a behavior, not a physical trait, and as such can be restrained and ordered like we do with our eating behavior, or social behavior, or behavior toward addictive substances or practices, and so on.

 

[Rookie]

This is all resting on the false idea that homosexuality is biological. It isn't. Not only does God's word deny that it is, male biology itself indicates that homosexuality is not "in the genes." And research into homosexuality is also far from conclusive about homosexuality being congenital. But even if it was, homosexuality is a behavior, not a physical trait, and as such can be restrained and ordered like we do with our eating behavior, or social behavior, or behavior toward addictive substances or practices, and so on.

Tenchi, I believe the LGBTQIAS2M+every-other-alphabet-letter-in-the-book, community is trying to define (or redefine) biologically, what is only explainable spiritually. The idea of homosexuality being present at birth, or "born this way", or being inherent in biology is a human reasoning for one thing: THE FLESH!

Scripture says we are born into sin, and shaped in iniquity. Every since we were first formed in our mothers womb we were innately given the Adam "trait", the sin carnal nature, the flesh. So when gays complain that they were born that way, or it's just how they were since conception, they're technically right, but are leaning on the wrong understanding. What they are "feeling", is the flesh pulling them down, we all are born into the flesh, and the flesh wants what it wants. Simply this movement is an outward expression of every man's desire to not resist the flesh, but to fulfill it's desires.