Actually it did alter something: Paul's letter to Rome. Altering God's Word is wrong, even if It was done to make it easier to understand. If you actually believe that, why not use a paraphrase such as the New Living Translation instead of the King James version?
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Living without sin ?
- Thread starter Hopeful
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Serving Zion
Member
Where did you see that? I don't see the word "destroyed" as a definition of καταργηθῇ in the links I gave you.
Both of what?
Who are you? Are you not more than the body? How much of you really is the body? I wish you had read what I have already written to you because it isn't fair that you are saying these things to me now while giving no regard to my parts of the conversation we have already had.
That's the problem then, isn't it? It makes sense.
It's more than that. It is important that the truth is in fact true. If you expect people to believe you when you tell them your body was destroyed, then you expect them to believe a lie. Your body has not been destroyed, else the remains of it would have been disposed of and there would be memories of that. What you have is a doctrinal flaw where you are meant to be believing that your body has become nothing to you. In your opinion it is already as good as dead, but in reality as is, the body is still existing and functioning, obviously having not been destroyed.
How can you glorify God at all when you expect people to believe that your body has been destroyed when in fact it remains intact and functional?
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Serving Zion
Member
The NLT is much worse than the KJV. Better to not advance into greater distortions but rather come to terms with the real teaching.
“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25 It is enough for the disciple to become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. - Matthew 10:24-25 TLV
When the KJV translators added words to Paul's writings they were distorting his teachings. I agree that it's better to not advance into greater distortions but rather come to terms with the real teaching. It's too bad that the KJV translators couldn't let Paul's writing stand as written instead of adding to -- distorting -- his writings.
I disagree that the NLT is "much worse than the KJV". The NLT is a paraphrase; they don't claim it to be literal. The KJV changed -- or at least accepted -- the modifications, all the while claiming word-for-word accuracy. It's just a matter of degree, like telling a "white lie".
If you want an excellent Bible, try the NET. It has 60,000+ translators' notes that explain in detail the reasons that they chose the words they did, alternative choices, amplification of the meanings, etc. In other words, it's both educational and honest.
Serving Zion
Member
It's inevitable, they are of a culture that wasn't entrusted with the oracles of God. Every translation suffers the same problem because decisions need to be made: there is no way to translate word-for-word and retain the full meaning, because the languages are fundamentally different.
The NLT contains more serious errors than the KJV because they have taken liberties to include doctrinal expressions, and their doctrines have errors. My favourite verse is however from the TLB, the predecessor of the NLT.
They're not very honest about Psalms 51:5 though. I'm really not interested to yield my thoughts to people that can't even grasp such basics as that. Their Genesis 4:4 is good though, probably the best I have seen.
What changed?
I don't go for legalism.
Had the intent or result been altered in some way, I would agree with you...but they don't.
The NLT fails my test.
The whole thing is a derail anyway.
Back on topic, please.
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I have a concordance of the bible.
My old body and Jerusalem.
I guess that is why scripture says that faith cometh by hearing.
Writing back and forth over days doesn't suit real conversation.
My body was dead and buried with Christ.
It was also raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, quickened by the Holy Spirit.
It had been destroyed, brought to naught, useless for anything but fertilizer.
Now it is the temple of the Holy Ghost.
I am a new, sinless, creature now, to the praise and glory of God.
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Truthfrees
Member
would you say it is a real spiritual occurrence that can't be seen by natural eyes but can be evidenced by a new experience new walk with God and a new freedom from sin never before experienced?
iow taking God's words literally is an act of faith that activates the new literal freedom?
not taking God's words literally renders them as mere metaphors / things to ponder which have no power to enable the kind of walk with God in the Spirit that He makes available to anyone who takes Him literally?
i love how there is inherent power in God's words which explodes into real events when the hearer has faith to believe receive take God at His word - real lasting experiences that go beyond natural understanding and can only be attributed to the power of God
most of my miracles come when i take God literally - even if i don't understand what He said or meant - or how He can possibly do it - i simply know He is right and He knows what He is talking about - iow God's words work for me even when i don't really understand what He is talking about - i step out in faith and obedience and watch the miracles happen in front of me
Truthfrees
Member
Romans 6:6 in most translations has approximately 1/3 saying destroyed - 1/3 saying done away with :
www.biblegateway.com
the original greek allows for cease to exist abolish etc which means so done away with that it is not coming back - iow destroyed -
if an enemy is so decimated that he's not coming back and ceases to exist it would be fair to say the enemy was destroyed imo
and for the purposes of this discussion if the body of sin is so done away with that it ceases to exist and is not coming back imo it would be fair to say the body of sin is destroyed as per 1/3 of the translations stating so in the biblegateway.com link
Romans 6:6 - Bible Gateway
the original greek allows for cease to exist abolish etc which means so done away with that it is not coming back - iow destroyed -
if an enemy is so decimated that he's not coming back and ceases to exist it would be fair to say the enemy was destroyed imo
and for the purposes of this discussion if the body of sin is so done away with that it ceases to exist and is not coming back imo it would be fair to say the body of sin is destroyed as per 1/3 of the translations stating so in the biblegateway.com link
Though "spiritual" in its occurrence, it is a physical event in my life.
It happened, and I am as physically reborn as I was physically killed.
Agreed, nd it makes real, holy, events just dream like.
It is called faith.
Rejoice in the word of God !
Serving Zion
Member
Here are your question(s) from post 122...
1) But if you say that your baptism constitutes the death of the body and the resurrection of it, do you also remember having understood that you would literally die when you went under the water?
I "literally" died when I was joined with Christ in His death.
Rom 6:7 affirms that with "For he that is dead is freed from sin."
I am now free from sin.
2) Or is that teaching a thing that came later?
It is the same as in the beginning of the NT.
3) How does that teaching compare with the teaching of Romans 7:9 where Paul says he was alive once and then died? It is clear that he spent a long time in the state of death before having the life breathed into him when he met the Lord.
Totally different topics.
Paul's reference to death in Rom 7 concerned being dead in sin while still under the Law. Because of the Law.
The Law said "thou shalt not covet", and Paul learned to covet.
4) How does that teaching of new life compare to your teaching of the life spoken of in 1 John 3:9?
By "that" I assume you refer to Rom 7.
It has nothing at all to do with it.
Paul's "death" in Rom 7 referred to death in trespasses and sin.
1 John 3:9 refer to the reborn's source of life, God's seed.
I will add that a reborn man must have killed the old man before being reborn, or there would be two of you walking around.
An old man plus the new man.
I call that the "split-personality doctrine".
Serving Zion
Member
Hopeful I am going to try and rephrase my question because it appears that you haven't seen the question that I was asking:
Think about the time that you decided to be baptised. Remember what you understood you were doing and what it meant to you. Here is the question: did you understand at that time that you would literally die when you went under the water? Or did you come to understand that teaching later on when your knowledge of the scriptures increased?
Think about the time that you decided to be baptised. Remember what you understood you were doing and what it meant to you. Here is the question: did you understand at that time that you would literally die when you went under the water? Or did you come to understand that teaching later on when your knowledge of the scriptures increased?
I did not know at the time I was baptized that the old me would be killed.
All I was trying to do was get the good conscience I had read about in 1 Peter 3:21..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
I learned it later, and believed it even later than that.
Living without sin involves a great deal of prayer.
Though I have set aside time in the morning for what I call formal prayers, (thanking Him for all that I thanked Him for yesterday and every day, and prayers for the people in my life, and for the children of the earth...plus more), it occurred to me that I am actually talking with Him all day long.
I thank Him for green lights I don't have to stop for, and for saving me and so many from me while driving.
I thank Him for all the different foods I enjoy and for putting me in an area with all my favorite restaurants close by.
I thank Him for the wisdom not to watch certain programs on TV.
I thank Him for the wisdom and knowledge to do all the puzzles in the news paper. (Remember them?)
I thank Him for the wind, and the shade of trees, especially as it was 116 here yesterday.
I thank Him for air conditioning and fans, plus the insulating factors I have done to my apartment.
And I thank Him all day long for His word, and for putting it in so portable a vessel as a bible so I can take with me everywhere.
I thank Him for how good I feel when a passer-by remarks on how I read my bible at the table at a restaurant, and for all the conversations concerning His glory it provokes.
And I thank Him for computer sites like this one where I can glorify the name of Jesus Christ, and for the freedom from sin He has provided, without fear of harm.
Though I have set aside time in the morning for what I call formal prayers, (thanking Him for all that I thanked Him for yesterday and every day, and prayers for the people in my life, and for the children of the earth...plus more), it occurred to me that I am actually talking with Him all day long.
I thank Him for green lights I don't have to stop for, and for saving me and so many from me while driving.
I thank Him for all the different foods I enjoy and for putting me in an area with all my favorite restaurants close by.
I thank Him for the wisdom not to watch certain programs on TV.
I thank Him for the wisdom and knowledge to do all the puzzles in the news paper. (Remember them?)
I thank Him for the wind, and the shade of trees, especially as it was 116 here yesterday.
I thank Him for air conditioning and fans, plus the insulating factors I have done to my apartment.
And I thank Him all day long for His word, and for putting it in so portable a vessel as a bible so I can take with me everywhere.
I thank Him for how good I feel when a passer-by remarks on how I read my bible at the table at a restaurant, and for all the conversations concerning His glory it provokes.
And I thank Him for computer sites like this one where I can glorify the name of Jesus Christ, and for the freedom from sin He has provided, without fear of harm.
I agree.
Why, does living in dominion over sin require a great deal of prayer, if our body has been changed and is now sinless, because it literally died at water baptism, and was literally resurrected when we came up from the water?
The answer is clear, as Paul teaches water baptized Christians with these words —
- Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
Paul teaches the literal resurrection occurs at the coming of the Lord, when the old body has indeed perished, and we receive a new body that is free from corruption.
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
- For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
As we see from the scriptures, the body that was baptized in water is still corrupt, and will put on incorruption at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, of which water baptism is a “symbol” of; water baptism is the “likeness” of the resurrection to come, which occurs at His coming.
Otherwise we are promoting a “two resurrection“ doctrine.
Until then we spend time separated unto the Lord, praying in the Spirit, fasting, reading His word, and worshipping Him daily, being filled with His Spirit, so we can walk in victory over the sinful desires of our flesh.
JLB
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We must watch out for what we do, to maintain our place in the light.
Any failure to keep ourselves pure will show our repentance from sin was a lie to God.
The "body" is just the carrier of the mind, and has no power to do anything without the mind's compliance.
You mistakenly credit it with a mind, and power of its own.
As Romans 6:4-6 makes clear..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
I was killed, buried, and "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".
I don't mind calling it a "two resurrection" doctrine at all, as that is exactly what scripture says.
But the final resurrection will provide us with a new, glorified vessel instead of the quickened from the dead old vessel we have now.
Col 2:9-13 also testify to this..."For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
I thank God for His concise, clarifying word !
JLB:
Until then we spend time separated unto the Lord, praying in the Spirit, fasting, reading His word, and worshipping Him daily, being filled with His Spirit, so we can walk in victory over the sinful desires of our flesh.
How can skin and bones have desires?
How can that which has been reborn of God's seed have sinful desires?
I thank God for killing that which I once served, so I may serve only God almighty from here on till the death of the vessel I walk in.
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This is a blatantly, blatantly false statement.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
- By context “us” refers to those who walk in the light
Question:
Does the blood of Jesus cleanse from sin, those who walk in the light?
Yes or No ?
The goal of the “sinless perfection“ doctrine is to deceive people into thinking they are sinless and should never have to confess their sin to be forgiven, otherwise if they should sin, they were never really saved in the first place; their born again experience never really happened.
It weaves scripture together with false statements, to come up with a false doctrine that labels people as unsaved, because if they are not sinless.
JLB
We are a three-partite being made up of spirit, soul and body.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
The body carries a human brain, which is not the mind. The mind is an asset of the soul, and continues on in function after the body dies.
Lazarus continued to see and recognize people, such as Abraham, and Lazarus.
Lazarus had the functional capacity of his memory, as well as emotional concern for his family and desires that they would not suffer the same fate as he.
All while his physical body was dead in the grave.
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Like 16:19-30
JLB
Do you get hungry or thirty?
Do you ever have sexual urges for your wife?
Do you every have an ungodly desire?
- if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-14
Here is a list of some of the sinful desires of the flesh —
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are:
adultery,
fornication,
uncleanness,
lewdness,
idolatry,
sorcery,
hatred,
contentions,
jealousies,
outbursts of wrath,
selfish ambitions,
dissensions,
heresies,
envy,
murders,
drunkenness,
revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
JLB