Living without sin ?

[Hopeful]

Paul is saying that he is no longer controlled by the needs of his body because it is through those needs that desire drags him out of his place of contentment, giving birth to sin, as James puts it. Paul is saying that he is not unaware of his body's needs, but that the weight given to the consideration of those needs is nil.

"Every competitor exercises self-control in all respects. They do it to receive a perishable crown, but we do it to receive an imperishable one. 26 So I run in this way—not aimlessly. So I box in this way—not beating the air. 27 Rather, I punish my body and bring it into submission, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."
1 Corinthians 9:25-27 TLV



It can be said to be true in some ways.

Yes, we are warned about arguing about words. It only is strife and destroys those who observe us.

It is more that the expression you have used is saying something different than the doctrine you are promoting. To say that the body has been destroyed means that it no longer functions, but the doctrine teaches that the body is a vessel that functions to the glory of God. Only, it is the desires of the flesh that have been brought to nothing because it is they that war against the desires of the spirit. The flesh is not synonymous with the body, and the annulment of it is not synonymous with the destruction of it. Look, I have shown you the original word used by Jesus to speak of destruction, and it is not the same as the word used by Paul for the annulment of the body. Why is Paul not saying that the body has been destroyed?

The old me is gone; dead and buried.
I have been raised with Christ as a new creature.
As the words destroy and annul are synonymous, further discussion of it isn't necessary.

 

[Hopeful]

The point is that "I" am more than my body. The "old man" is the flesh: the mind and the heart, but the body is only a vessel. It is the "old me" that has passed away, not my body. Our bodies continue to serve their function under new management when we become born again.

Amen to that...when keeping in mind that the "vessel" quickened by the Holy Spirit is a reborn son, of God's seed.

 

[Serving Zion]

The old me is gone; dead and buried.
I have been raised with Christ as a new creature.
As the words destroy and annul are synonymous, further discussion of it isn't necessary.

It would be better for you to listen. We are meant to be working together.

 

[JLB]

Are these close enough for you?...
"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matt 9:13)
Who is He calling? Sinners?

Sinners are people who are separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


The way a person is saved, sanctified by faith, forgiven of their sins, and delivered from the power of Satan, is by repenting, turning to God; confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.


Words of Christ in red.


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20


Repent is about changing kingdoms, by changing who is your Lord; the one who you commit to obey as Lord.


We are forgiven our sins by turning away from Satan as lord, and turning to Jesus and confessing Him as Lord; a commitment to serve Him as our King, our Lord, our God.


If we should sin (have one thought, or word or deed out of His will) in this life, we can confess our sin and be forgiven.



But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:7-2:2

• If a Christian confesses their sin to God, will God forgive him his sin?

JLB

 

[JLB]

Are you reading my replies?

You've lost the context of my reply.

Yes you claim your physical body was destroyed at water baptism, and now you have a new sinless one.



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

It would be better for you to listen. We are meant to be working together.

As we are in agreement, it is apparent I have been "listening".

 

[Hopeful]

Sinners are people who are separated from Christ.

Doesn't that mean they are not Christians?
It does to me.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26
The way a person is saved, sanctified by faith, forgiven of their sins, and delivered from the power of Satan, is by repenting, turning to God; confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.

You forgot baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
But indeed you did mention calling on the name of the Lord, which is done at water baptism in the Lord's name.
That is also when/where we are sanctified.
Our turn from sin and unto God must be true, real, though, or else it is all just a lie.

Words of Christ in red.
I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20

Amen to that.

Repent is about changing kingdoms, by changing who is your Lord; the one who you commit to obey as Lord.

That is indeed the end result of a turn from sin.

We are forgiven our sins by turning away from Satan as lord, and turning to Jesus and confessing Him as Lord; a commitment to serve Him as our King, our Lord, our God.

Actually, we are forgiven of past sin by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ "for the remission of sins". (Acts 2:38)

If we should sin (have one thought, or word or deed out of His will) in this life, we can confess our sin and be forgiven.

If a sinner wants to turn to God, they have an Advocate who will allow it to happen.
They can start to walk as a Christian, from that point onward.
They were not Christians while they brought forth the fruit of the devil.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:7-2:2

Thank God we can walk in the light, wherein is no sin, instead of in darkness...eh?

• If a Christian confesses their sin to God, will God forgive him his sin?

Christians don't commit sin.
Those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes you claim your physical body was destroyed at water baptism, and now you have a new sinless one.



JLB

I agree, just as Rom 6:6 says..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

 

[JLB]

I agree, just as Rom 6:6 says..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Brother, we don’t get some new sinless body at water baptism.

That comes at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which happens at His coming.

If you would actually read through to the point he is making which is to not let the sin in our physical body reign over us.

Paul’s Point —

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. vs 12


“Therefore“ connects what he just said “figuratively” to his main point which is the literal application of his figurative narrative.


Romans 6:4-5

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death…


Going down under the water is symbolic of being united in the likeness of His death.


”LIKENESS”


Paul is illustrating by comparison, using the water as symbolic of going down into the grave or death, and coming up into new life.

That is what the Greek word for “likeness“ refers to.

When we are water baptized, we are not literally crucified with Christ.

Please tell me you understand this.



JLB

 

[Corn Pop]

Im a good person.

 

[Hopeful]

Brother, we don’t get some new sinless body at water baptism.

We don't agree, as you may have missed Romans 6:6's description of the destruction of the body of sin.

That comes at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which happens at His coming.

Actually, it happens when we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

If you would actually read through to the point he is making which is to not let the sin in our physical body reign over us.

You seem to have swapped the wording from "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."...
to..."Let not sin in your mortal body therefore reign, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
I find that kind of switcheroo disingenuine.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.Paul’s Point —
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. vs 12
“Therefore“ connects what he just said “figuratively” to his main point which is the literal application of his figurative narrative.

You had the right order all along?
I am highly dismayed.

Romans 6:4-5
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death…
Going down under the water is symbolic of being united in the likeness of His death.

It is actual.
Those who think it only symbolic can't quit committing sin.

”LIKENESS”
Paul is illustrating by comparison, using the water as symbolic of going down into the grave or death, and coming up into new life.
That is what the Greek word for “likeness“ refers to.
When we are water baptized, we are not literally crucified with Christ.
Please tell me you understand this.

I can't quit believing that which freed me from sinning based on your interpretation of God's word.

 

[Serving Zion]

As we are in agreement, it is apparent I have been "listening".

What makes you say that we are in agreement? It surely has to be a mutual understanding to be an agreement. Why do you suppose I have not got the same impression? The last time you changed direction with me is in post #144 when you said that I had "lost you". Can you explain why you think you have changed direction since that time, to be with me again? I don't perceive it because you have said a thing that is contrary to what I have said, but now also claim to be in agreement.

 

[JLB]

We don't agree, as you may have missed Romans 6:6's description of the destruction of the body of sin.

We don’t agree because you are taking the one verse that seems to fit your narrative but when taken in context with the previous verses, it becomes clear that we were not “literally” crucified with Christ, and our physical body isn’t “literally” destroyed.



Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Romans 6:4-6


There is only one literal resurrection of our body, and that is when He returns at the end of the age, on the last Day; at His coming.

• that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with

Done away with; destroyed —

1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
   1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
   2. to deprive of force, influence, power
2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
   1. to cease, to pass away, be done away
   2. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
   3. to terminate all intercourse with one

We don’t literally have a new sinless body yet, but we have the ability by the Spirit, to render our body which contains sin, to be deprived of its ability to influence us to sin, if we are led by the Spirit; so that the sin in our physical body doesn’t rule over us, but rather that we, by the Spirit, rule over the sin in our mortal body, so as to walk in the newness of life.


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13


Why is it so important for us to not live our life according to flesh if it is sinless?

Why is it so important to crucify, to put to death the deeds or our body if it’s sinless?

What would our “sinless body” lead us to do that is so wrong, if is sinless?





JLB

 

[Hopeful]

What makes you say that we are in agreement? It surely has to be a mutual understanding to be an agreement. Why do you suppose I have not got the same impression? The last time you changed direction with me is in post #144 when you said that I had "lost you". Can you explain why you think you have changed direction since that time, to be with me again? I don't perceive it because you have said a thing that is contrary to what I have said, but now also claim to be in agreement.

You clarified yourself in Post 144 with post 155, and thank you.
You feel that the word "destroy" means to annul, brought to naught.
So do I.
Are we not in agreement?

 

[Hopeful]

We don’t agree because you are taking the one verse that seems to fit your narrative but when taken in context with the previous verses, it becomes clear that we were not “literally” crucified with Christ, and our physical body isn’t “literally” destroyed.

It is a verse that doesn't fit your narrative.

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Romans 6:4-6

Amen to that.

There is only one literal resurrection of our body, and that is when He returns at the end of the age, on the last Day; at His coming.

There is one resurrection at the return of Christ.
But the faithful were raised with Christ at His resurrection, to walk in newness of life.
When that vessel dies, it will be raised again on the last day.
I am a new creature now, as the old has ALL passed away.

• that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with

Done away with; destroyed —

1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
   1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
   2. to deprive of force, influence, power
2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
   1. to cease, to pass away, be done away
   2. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
   3. to terminate all intercourse with one

We don’t literally have a new sinless body yet, but we have the ability by the Spirit, to render our body which contains sin, to be deprived of its ability to influence us to sin, if we are led by the Spirit; so that the sin in our physical body doesn’t rule over us, but rather that we, by the Spirit, rule over the sin in our mortal body, so as to walk in the newness of life.

We disagree.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13
Why is it so important for us to not live our life according to flesh if it is sinless?

To keep it sinless, to the glory of God and of the name of Jesus Christ.

Why is it so important to crucify, to put to death the deeds or our body if it’s sinless?

To keep it sinless.

What would our “sinless body” lead us to do that is so wrong, if is sinless?

Men's bodies can do nothing to cause men to sin.
It is just a vessel.
The mind is the initiator of all the vessel can or will do.

 

[Serving Zion]

You clarified yourself in Post 144 with post 155, and thank you. You feel that the word "destroy" means to annul, brought to naught.
So do I.

I haven't said that. Here is what I said in post 155:

"Why is Paul not saying that the body has been destroyed?"

Are we not in agreement?

It couldn't be any clearer now. You seem to think I am saying something quite different to what I have said. 1 John 4:6 warns of that precisely.

 

[Hopeful]

I haven't said that. Here is what I said in post 155:

"Why is Paul not saying that the body has been destroyed?"

He does say it in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

It couldn't be any clearer now. You seem to think I am saying something quite different to what I have said. 1 John 4:6 warns of that precisely.

What I think is that you don't believe the "old man" was destroyed.
I hope I am mistaken.

 

[Serving Zion]

He does say it in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

This is proof that you haven't read what I have shown you. Paul did not use the word "destroyed". Jesus did though, and I showed you that in the Greek texts they are different words.

What I think is that you don't believe the "old man" was destroyed.
I hope I am mistaken.

I'm really concerned that you are not investing time to understand what I have approached you to say. I say this because we are meant to be of one mind and providing for each other.

 

[Truthfrees]

I can't quit believing that which freed me from sinning based on your interpretation of God's word.

amen - the interpretation creates a belief - one leads to freedom from sin - the other leads to the bondage of sin

your interpretation inspires me to know sin has no power or right and has been soundly and irreversibly defeated by the Redeemer whose redemptive work is so sufficient he called it finished/completed/perfected/done

when i focus on your interpretation it works powerfully to empower/inspire/enable me to choose God's power and grace rather than depend on my inability

for me staying focused on God's power/ability/promises/accomplished work sets me free from the limitations

it seems to me that when i focus on my ability i fail but when i focus on God's ability and promised of newness of life i succeed

abraham considered not his flesh but only God's faithfulness to do as He promised - so i am going to use what you have been saying to fix my eyes/hopes/strategy on the Author and Perfector who now lives in me because i no longer live

all these nuggets mean something powerful to me as per Philippians 2:13

iow the new life is powerfully available and can be maintained by walking in the Spirit - and by walking in love - and by avoiding bad company and places - and all the other Godly things God has told me to do or to not do

the theology of this is laborious and i see that even when people agree in principle they can still disagree on the wording - so i will take the wording you gave and use it to walk in the Spirit because your wording propels me to a deeper success in my relationship with God and with man

your wording does not alarm me - your wording turns on switches for me and makes my walk in the Spirit better - so perhaps i have the same understanding of words you do and perhaps all the other word fights are a different understanding which possibly will never be reconciled because each person has their cultural understanding of the use and meaning of words

 

[JLB]

[ACMP=announcement]

It is a verse that doesn't fit your narrative.

Actually it is clear, if you read the context.

When you take in the context, you will see that going down under the water is symbolic of death; going down in the grave.


Not only did you ignore the context but you ignored the point Paul was making which was…

• Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Again in the next chapter —

• But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23

Again in the next Chapter —

• And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

This is referring to baptized people who have Christ “in them”.



Claiming our physical body somehow becomes “sinless” at water baptism is blatantly false; unbiblical doctrine

Insinuating that people are not really saved,
because they are not sinless in their body
is forbidden in this Forum.​

JLB
[/ACMP]