Living without sin ?

[JLB]

amen - the interpretation creates a belief - one leads to freedom from sin - the other leads to the bondage of sin

your interpretation inspires me to know sin has no power or right and has been soundly and irreversibly defeated by the Redeemer whose redemptive work is so sufficient he called it finished/completed/perfected/done

when i focus on your interpretation it works powerfully to empower/inspire/enable me to choose God's power and grace rather than depend on my inability

for me staying focused on God's power/ability/promises/accomplished work sets me free from the limitations

it seems to me that when i focus on my ability i fail but when i focus on God's ability and promised of newness of life i succeed

abraham considered not his flesh but only God's faithfulness to do as He promised - so i am going to use what you have been saying to fix my eyes/hopes/strategy on the Author and Perfector who now lives in me because i no longer live

all these nuggets mean something powerful to me as per Philippians 2:13

iow the new life is powerfully available and can be maintained by walking in the Spirit - and by walking in love - and by avoiding bad company and places - and all the other Godly things God has told me to do or to not do

the theology of this is laborious and i see that even when people agree in principle they can still disagree on the wording - so i will take the wording you gave and use it to walk in the Spirit because your wording propels me to a deeper success in my relationship with God and with man

your wording does not alarm me - your wording turns on switches for me and makes my walk in the Spirit better - so perhaps i have the same understanding of words you do and perhaps all the other word fights are a different understanding which possibly will never be reconciled because each person has their cultural understanding of the use and meaning of words

Do you believe that Christians become sinless in their physical body at water baptism?


Do you believe Christians can confess their sins and be forgiven?


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9




JLB

 

[JLB]

for me staying focused on God's power/ability/promises/accomplished work sets me free from the limitations

it seems to me that when i focus on my ability i fail but when i focus on God's ability and promised of newness of life i succeed

Amen this is true, and is called setting your mind on things above.

Its part of walking in the Spirit.


Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, Colossians 3:2-6


The reason we must crucify the members of our body is because of the sin the dwells in our flesh.



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

aThis is proof that you haven't read what I have shown you. Paul did not use the word "destroyed". Jesus did though, and I showed you that in the Greek texts they are different words.

Paul does use the word "destroyed" in the KJV of the bible.

I'm really concerned that you are not investing time to understand what I have approached you to say. I say this because we are meant to be of one mind and providing for each other.

What version of the bible are you using?

Do you really see a difference between "brought to naught" and "destroyed"?
I don't.

 

[Hopeful]

When you take in the context, you will see that going down under the water is symbolic of death; going down in the grave.


Not only did you ignore the context but you ignored the point Paul was making which was…

• Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Again in the next chapter —

• But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23

Again in the next Chapter —

• And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

This is referring to baptized people who have Christ “in them”.



Claiming our physical body somehow becomes “sinless” at water baptism is blatantly false; unbiblical doctrine

Insinuating that people are not really saved,
because they are not sinless in their body
is forbidden in this Forum.​

JLB

Have you ever read Romans 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." ?
It is Paul's answer to his recollections of his pre-conversion life trying to satisfy the Law in Rom 7:23.

 

[JLB]

Have you ever read Romans 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." ?
It is Paul's answer to his recollections of his pre-conversion life trying to satisfy the Law in Rom 7:23.

Yes, I have read Romans 8:2, and it makes so much more sense when you don’t skip verse 1.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2


Why does Paul warn about walking according to the flesh if the flesh is sinless?


It’s easy to understand, when we read the context from which Paul makes this statement.


But I see (present tense) another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, (present tense) but with the flesh the law of sin. (present tense) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:23-8:2

• but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul came to realize, just like us as we mature and study the doctrine of Christ, that we must walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh, because the works or manifestations of the flesh are sin, just as Paul teaches.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Do you agree these “works“ of the flesh are sin?






JLB

 

[jaybo]

Romans 8:1 footnote from the NET Bible: " The earliest and best witnesses of the Alexandrian and Western texts, as well as a few others (א* B D* F G 6 1506 1739 1881 co), have no additional words for v. 1. Later scribes (A D1 Ψ 81 365 629 vg) added the words μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν (mē kata sarka peripatousin, “who do not walk according to the flesh”), while even later ones (א2 D2 33vid M) added ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα (alla kata pneuma, “but [who do walk] according to the Spirit”). Both the external evidence and the internal evidence are compelling for the shortest reading. The scribes were evidently motivated to add such qualifications (interpolated from v. 4) to insulate Paul’s gospel from charges that it was characterized too much by grace. The KJV follows the longest reading found in M.

It's not a good idea to emphasize doctrine based on the KJV's flawed rendering of verse 1-2. Here is the correct version: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death."

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, I have read Romans 8:2, and it makes so much more sense when you don’t skip verse 1.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

Free from the law you sited as proof that skin and bones are still sinful after rebirth from God's seed.

Why does Paul warn about walking according to the flesh if the flesh is sinless?

So we remains sinless.

It’s easy to understand, when we read the context from which Paul makes this statement.
But I see (present tense) another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, (present tense) but with the flesh the law of sin. (present tense) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:23-8:2

Again you try to prove something just proven untrue above.
Paul's lament of a time prior to his walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh in Rom 7:23 is graciously answered by God in Rom 8:2's Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Paul, and us, have been freed from the law of sin.

BTW, Paul had already replied to the delivering from "this body of death" in Romans 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Paul came to realize, just like us as we mature and study the doctrine of Christ, that we must walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh, because the works or manifestations of the flesh are sin, just as Paul teaches.

Agreed, but Paul also wrote..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
No man is tempted above what they can refuse, no matter how much they have grown in grace and wisdom.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
Do you agree these “works“ of the flesh are sin?

I agree, and I agree with Paul that we shouldn't be doing them.
Obey and live, or disobey and die.

 

[Hopeful]

Romans 8:1 footnote from the NET Bible: " The earliest and best witnesses of the Alexandrian and Western texts, as well as a few others (א* B D* F G 6 1506 1739 1881 co), have no additional words for v. 1. Later scribes (A D1 Ψ 81 365 629 vg) added the words μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν (mē kata sarka peripatousin, “who do not walk according to the flesh”), while even later ones (א2 D2 33vid M) added ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα (alla kata pneuma, “but [who do walk] according to the Spirit”). Both the external evidence and the internal evidence are compelling for the shortest reading. The scribes were evidently motivated to add such qualifications (interpolated from v. 4) to insulate Paul’s gospel from charges that it was characterized too much by grace. The KJV follows the longest reading found in M.

It's not a good idea to emphasize doctrine based on the KJV's flawed rendering of verse 1-2. Here is the correct version: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death."

You must agree, however, that no man walking in the flesh is "in" Christ Jesus.
The added words just clarify an obvious point.
I can't call that kind of addition a flaw.

 

[jaybo]

You must agree, however, that no man walking in the flesh is "in" Christ Jesus.
The added words just clarify an obvious point.
I can't call that kind of addition a flaw.

Changing the text of the Bible is more than a flaw. It was a deliberate attempt to alter Paul's letter to the Romans. What other parts of God's Word would you like to see changed?

 

[Serving Zion]

Paul does use the word "destroyed" in the KJV of the bible.

You do know that Paul didn't write the KJV, he wrote in Greek, don't you? How can you possibly fool anyone by saying that?

The word used in the Greek of Romans 6:6 is καταργηθῇ.

The interlinear at the biblehub.com, with the Strong's word references:

2673 [e]
katargēthē

I have shown you the word that Jesus used when He spoke of destruction in Matthew 7:13: ἀπώλειαν

684 [e]
apōleian

If you click on those links, you will find every other place that those words have been used, according to the Strong's word numbering system. It will show you that Paul has used the word for destruction in Philippians 3:19 and other places, but in Romans 6:6 he chose to not use the word to say that the body is to be destroyed, but specifically chose a word that says it is made of no significance.

What version of the bible are you using?

I am reading the Lexham English Bible in the paper form, and usually the Tree of Life version for keyword searches online, but when it gets to this level of detail then I look at the interlinear on biblehub.com.

Do you really see a difference between "brought to naught" and "destroyed"?
I don't.

I have explained that the body is not destroyed but that the things of it are "brought to naught" in terms of value when we live according to the spirit. The desires of the flesh when they are at war with the spirit, simply have no appeal that would sway us into temptation because it is the seed of God who remains alive in us, that directs our hearts and minds, through faith.

 

[JLB]

So we remains sinless.

?

Makes no sense.


Here’s my question again —

Why does Paul warn about walking according to the flesh if the flesh is sinless?




JLB

 

[jaybo]

You must agree, however, that no man walking in the flesh is "in" Christ Jesus.
The added words just clarify an obvious point.
I can't call that kind of addition a flaw.

What other additions to the Bible do you consider acceptable? Do you think that the authors of the "books" of the Bible left things out?

Do you realize the implications of what you're writing???

 

[JLB]

Again you try to prove something just proven untrue above.

You haven’t proven anything untrue.

Please address what I actually said and the scripture I quoted and emphasized.


Here is a key, that shows the Spirit of Christ in us, while simultaneously sin in our physical body.

• And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10
  

It’s easy to understand, when we read the context from which Paul makes this statement.



But I see (present tense) another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, (present tense) but with the flesh the law of sin. (present tense) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:23-8:2


Paul plainly stated that he see’s a law at work in the members of his body, that brings him into captivity to the law of sin in his members.


So we are not under condemnation when we walk according to the Spirit, but we are under condemnation when we walk according to the flesh, because the flesh has in it sin, and the law of sin and death at work in our physical body.

The way we have victory over this sin in our flesh is for us, by the Spirit to put to death the sinful deeds of our flesh.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13




JLB

 

[JLB]

I have explained that the body is not destroyed but that the things of it are "brought to naught" in terms of value when we live according to the spirit. The desires of the flesh when they are at war with the spirit, simply have no appeal that would sway us into temptation because it is the seed of God who remains alive in us, that directs our hearts and minds, through faith.

So true.


The picture Paul paints is crucified.

The body that is being crucified still continues to live but is nailed in place, and thereby restricted In its ability to function.



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Changing the text of the Bible is more than a flaw. It was a deliberate attempt to alter Paul's letter to the Romans. What other parts of God's Word would you like to see changed?

But in this case it altered nothing.
It was done to make it easier to understand.

As for "liking" to change any of it, I like it the way it is.
My KJV pocket bible has all the "amended" words in italics.
I sometimes read it without the insertions to see if it is intelligible 15 hundred years after its initial release.
It is.

 

[JLB]

So true.


The picture Paul paints is crucified.

The body that is being crucified still continues to live but is nailed in place, and thereby restricted In its ability to function.



JLB

Thanks to all in this thread for the discussion.

I’m stepping out of the thread for a while.




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

What other additions to the Bible do you consider acceptable? Do you think that the authors of the "books" of the Bible left things out?

Do you realize the implications of what you're writing???

If you are referring to the KJV of the bible, I feel there is nothing wrong with it at all.
Later versions, however, have made wholesale changes to it that cannot be accepted.
As the KJV of the bible is the most widely published book in the world, for a long time, I think God has had a direct hand in its publication.
He wouldn't allow anything to usurp His intents.

 

[Hopeful]

You haven’t proven anything untrue.

Please address what I actually said and the scripture I quoted and emphasized.


Here is a key, that shows the Spirit of Christ in us, while simultaneously sin in our physical body.

• And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

It’s easy to understand, when we read the context from which Paul makes this statement.



But I see (present tense) another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, (present tense) but with the flesh the law of sin. (present tense) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:23-8:2


Paul plainly stated that he see’s a law at work in the members of his body, that brings him into captivity to the law of sin in his members.


So we are not under condemnation when we walk according to the Spirit, but we are under condemnation when we walk according to the flesh, because the flesh has in it sin, and the law of sin and death at work in our physical body.

The way we have victory over this sin in our flesh is for us, by the Spirit to put to death the sinful deeds of our flesh.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13




JLB

You didn't believe it earlier, and I see no reason you will now.
I just cannot agree with your "partial-rebirth" doctrine.

 

[Hopeful]

So true.


The picture Paul paints is crucified.

The body that is being crucified still continues to live but is nailed in place, and thereby restricted In its ability to function.



JLB

That kind of ignores the "body's" burial and resurrection with Christ...doesn't it?

 

[Hopeful]

You do know that Paul didn't write the KJV, he wrote in Greek, don't you? How can you possibly fool anyone by saying that?
The word used in the Greek of Romans 6:6 is καταργηθῇ.
The interlinear at the biblehub.com, with the Strong's word references:
2673 [e]
katargēthē

Thanks. And I notice there are 14 different definitions included with "destroy" and "brought to naught".
Both of which are included.

I have shown you the word that Jesus used when He spoke of destruction in Matthew 7:13: ἀπώλειαν
684 [e]
apōleian

Thanks.
Both were destroyed.
Thanks be to God for allowing the Holy Spirit to quicken that which was killed with Christ and filling it with His own Spirit.
I like being a new creature !
But I could not be a new creature if part of the old creature remained.

If you click on those links, you will find every other place that those words have been used, according to the Strong's word numbering system. It will show you that Paul has used the word for destruction in Philippians 3:19 and other places, but in Romans 6:6 he chose to not use the word to say that the body is to be destroyed, but specifically chose a word that says it is made of no significance.
I am reading the Lexham English Bible in the paper form, and usually the Tree of Life version for keyword searches online, but when it gets to this level of detail then I look at the interlinear on biblehub.com.

I have explained that the body is not destroyed but that the things of it are "brought to naught" in terms of value when we live according to the spirit. The desires of the flesh when they are at war with the spirit, simply have no appeal that would sway us into temptation because it is the seed of God who remains alive in us, that directs our hearts and minds, through faith.

That doesn't agree with what I have read from the KJV of the bible.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" (Col 2:11)

The body is merely a vessel, now the temple of God.

It is merely semantics where we differ on the definition of "destroy".
As long as we glorify God, and the name of Jesus Christ, the "death", "destruction", "brought to naught" of our old vessel is manifested to those among whom we live.