Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps

[archangel_300]

I disagree that eternal life is a reward for our obedience to God but I do agree that God works in us to bring about fruit.

Greetings. If eternal life is not a reward for our obedience, how do you explain this statement from Romans 2:

God will give to each person according to what he has done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Drew please re-read my previous post carefully. All believers have been predestined to be saved and chosen by God *first*. (Romans 9, Ephesians 1) The end result is that those who have been chosen will seek after glory, honor and immortality. God did not choose us on the basis that He thought we were better than the rest of the human race because of our righteousness. None of us are righteous and the Bible declares that all of us are sinners.

Also please read my post a few posts back that starts off...

"Drew, I disagree with you here. You have to see the overarching picture here. Anything that God comamands us to do is the law and it's not necessarily limited to the law of Moses..."

I describe in that post why man cannot be saved by good works.

Please post back after reading it, thanks.

 

[glorydaz]

Verses?

Well, how about John 5:21 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." Hmmm. . . maybe Jesus was just a bit uncertain about that, do you think? Or maybe he defined eternal is "just until you reject me or sin badly enough."
Or maybe we should look at Hebrews 10:14 "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." But hmm . . . again, maybe I'm mistaken. By 'forever', maybe Paul really meant "just until I doubt my faith or engage in sin."
How about Ephesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of his glory."
Ok, all sarcasm aside (and I am sorry if I offended anyone with that.) We really do need to ask the question "Why on earth would God give us just a myriad of verses like thi" (and believe me, I could go on and on) "if the truth about our salvation is that it hangs by the thin threads of our faith and obedience?" I mean, lets be honest brothers, if we must depend on our own faith and obedience to maintain salvation, then we're pretty much damned - every one of us. We are simply unable to maintain perfect obedience or faith. There is not a man among us who does not waver day to day (dare I say hour to hour). The measure is not relative (better than my brother) it is perfection. And I'm not there (apart from God's counting me so.) Neither are you. But there is One who is perfect both in his faith and his obedience. It is the One, the Lord Jesus Christ, on whom we must depend. He earned our salvation at the cross. And He maintains our salvation by his grace. It isn't like he took all the trouble to redeem us, and is now saying to himself "Now, wait a minute! I didn't know he was going to do THAT! Oh! I thought he was going to be stronger. I take it all back!" Where we are fickle, he is always faithful. Praise the Lord for that. "His mercy leads us to repentance."

I asked for verses because I thought you were saying we could lose our salvation.
I see you're not. Must be because I'm so used to people denying the power of God to save and keep us. :biglaugh

 

[Cornelius]

You neglected to put up the rest of the scripture which says this..

Those who have been washed, sanctified and justified are not brought under the power of these sins we used to walk in.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

That is correct. We are now free from sin, we are no longer under the power of any. We have been washed and Jesus first forgave us, then freed us from it too. He took our sins away too :Joh 1:29 ... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

 

[glorydaz]

When we receive the reward of eternal life as a result of our obedience to God, it is not works salvation, because it is GOD WORKING IN US IN THE FIRST PLACE that enables us to bring about this fruit.

Hi Francis, I disagree and agree with some parts of what you said. I disagree that eternal life is a reward for our obedience to God but I do agree that God works in us to bring about fruit. In the passage of James as you mentioned in one of your earlier posts that "faith without works is dead".
Our good works of the law do not cause us to attain faith/salvation but rather just the opposite. Our good works demonstrate that we have *first* been saved through faith.

Here's how I interpret Romans 2 in light of the rest of the scripture.
Yes those that seek after doing good, glory/honor and immortality to attain eternal life. But this doing good and seeking after God is all God's doing not ours. For instance this is similiar to the phrases found in the book of Jeremiah and Proverbs

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

On the other hand the scriptures also state:

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God."

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked,For they do not seek Your statutes.

Psalm 10:4
The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God;God is in none of his thoughts.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So how is it possible a wicked man such as myself comes faith/repentence in Christ?

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Going back to Romans 2. The reason why we seek after doing good and seek after
honor/glory/immortality and attain eternal life as a result was because we were first declared an heir of salvation and God is drawing us. The decision that God would save us is not determined based upon our obedience, nor because I did this or that or because I'm more special in some fashion. It's based only upon God's will alone. Eternal life is not the result of obedience because none of our works are worthy.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

:amen

 

[Cornelius]

Must be because I'm so used to people denying the power of God to save and keep us. :biglaugh

That is correct: God can indeed save us and keep us, when we are obedient to His Word.

Not only does He have the power to forgive us, but also to keep us from sinning.That indeed is the power of God , through the cross of Jesus Christ.

Only through disobedience, that is the same word as "unbelief" can we step outside that power of God. Nothing will shake us out of His hand, but we are free to climb out through our unbelief. Just like Israel, God's Old Testament chosen .........they were unable to enter into their promised land (eternal life) through their unbelief.Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
Heb 3:19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Many think this unbelief means unbelief in God, whereas in reality it means unbelief in His promises.

 

[Cornelius]

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Amen, and we come to Him through obedience to the Word.

 

[Cornelius]

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Amen, and we come to Him through obedience to the Word.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Step one in coming to the Lord
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Heb 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings (The Gospel) preached unto us, even as also they:

(Step two: Mix the gospel with faith, believe the promises . Add your walk (works) to your faith to make it alive. Faith without works is dead)



but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.

 

[Cornelius]

"Falling short" means you did not add faith to the promises.

That causes the person to fall short and so they cannot enter Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience,

Disobedience causes failure.

 

[Drew]

Good grief......The point is... :bigfrown ...man is hopeless without the grace of God. That is the simple gospel message Paul is presenting here. Man can obey all the law and live a life filled with good deeds, but without the grace of God, he will face the judgment of God based on those works alone.

In order to hold to your position, you are forced to "gloss" or effectively ignore the details of Romans 2 where Paul's language could not possibly be more clear - man gets eternal life based on what he has done. I am not willing to assume that Paul was mistaken when he said that. You apparently are comfortable with believing that Paul wrote something that he later "corrects".

It is indeed true that man, unaided by the Spirit, cannot manifest the works needed to pass the Romans 2 works judgement. But fds is right - Romans 2 is what it is, it says what it says.

 

[archangel_300]

:amen

glorydaz... sometimes though I feel like I'm speaking to the wind.
I don't think either of us are making sense to anybody.

 

[Drew]

Drew please re-read my previous post carefully. All believers have been predestined to be saved and chosen by God *first*. (Romans 9, Ephesians 1) The end result is that those who have been chosen will seek after glory, honor and immortality.

I do not believe that either of these supports the pre-destination position, and we can discuss that if you like.

But even if pre-destination is correct, Romans 2 says it says - eternal life is given to those who persist in "doing good", regardless of whether they were, or were not, pre-destined to do so.

 

[glorydaz]

I am mystified to the point of incredulity that people will read this text from Romans 3 and suggest that this means we cannot be saved by “good worksâ€. The text is clearly not about the Christian. It is about the state of the non-believer.

Paul is not speaking of Christians in Romans 2. He is speaking about those who "seek after" eternal life by doing good. Those are the ones who have a heart prepared for salvation, but even one single sin will negate all their good works unless they experience the grace of God unto salvation.

Paul explains here...In spite of "our" righteousness, why are we yet judged "a sinner"?
Because "our" righteousness is not enough. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: " Could it be any plainer? NONE are righteous. Therefore we need grace. (Paul speaks of it in verse 23)

But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

 

[archangel_300]

Good grief......The point is... :bigfrown ...man is hopeless without the grace of God. That is the simple gospel message Paul is presenting here. Man can obey all the law and live a life filled with good deeds, but without the grace of God, he will face the judgment of God based on those works alone.

In order to hold to your position, you are forced to "gloss" or effectively ignore the details of Romans 2 where Paul's language could not possibly be more clear - man gets eternal life based on what he has done. I am not willing to assume that Paul was mistaken when he said that. You apparently are comfortable with believing that Paul wrote something that he later "corrects".

It is indeed true that man, unaided by the Spirit, cannot manifest the works needed to pass the Romans 2 works judgement. But fds is right - Romans 2 is what it is, it says what it says.

Drew, how do you reconcile Romans 2 with Romans 9?

Romans 9:8-16 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.â€[c]
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e] 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.â€[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Romans 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.[n] 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[o] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

Please read my previous posts and get back to me. Thanks.

 

[Drew]

Drew, I disagree with you here. You have to see the overarching picture here. Anything that God comamands us to do is the law and it's not necessarily limited to the law of Moses.

Not true. My argument is what it is - you cannot simply "declare" what Paul means by the term "law". I have argued in detail that, in Romans 3 and 4 at least, Paul is talking about the Law of Moses, not something more broad. You really need to engage those arguments - I did not simply make assertions, I made a case: When Paul denies "justification by works" or "justificaiton by law", he is making a very specific statement that justification is not achieved by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

You cannot, legitimately anyway, broaden out Paul's references to the Law of Moses to include other things. Paul is quite clear. The references to "works" and / or to "law" in Romans 3 and 4 are all references to the Law of Moses.

 

[glorydaz]

Greetings. If eternal life is not a reward for our obedience, .

Its a result of our obedience.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life.

Disobedience will sow to the flesh and reap death. Obedience will sow to the Spirit and reap eternal life:

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life.

We have many rewards...the crown of righteousness to all who love His appearing.

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The crown of life to them that love Him.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

A crown of glory that fadeth not away.

And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Those "begotten" (born of the Spirit) are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Drew]

Paul is not speaking of Christians in Romans 2. He is speaking about those who "seek after" eternal life by doing good. Those are the ones who have a heart prepared for salvation, but even one single sin will negate all their good works unless they experience the grace of God unto salvation.

This simply not what Paul actually writes. You are adding in qualifiers that Paul does not include. You are saying "Paul says that God will give eternal life to those who persist in doing good, but he doesn't really means what he has said because he will go on to tell us that it is impossible for us to do good".

Why would Paul tell us something that he will later retract?

Why do you not recognize that Romans 3 is describing the state of the unregnerate man. Here is some other stuff from that Romans 3 text:

Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes

With all respect, I simply do not understand why so many people stumble over this bit in Romans 3 and think that it over-rules what Paul has said in Romans 2 – namely that people are given eternal life according to what they have done (Paul’s words, not mine).

How can the above description characterize the believer with the Spirit.?

The believer with the Spirit seeks blood?

The believer with the Spirit has poison on their lips?

The believer with the Spirit practices deceit?

Paul is clear in Romans, and elsewhere, that the believer is being transformed into the image of Christ (Romans 8), that the believer is no longer a slave to sin (Romans 8), that the believer is a new creation (Corinthians). The text from Romans 3 is clearly not about the Christian. It is about the state of the non-believer.

 

[archangel_300]

Drew, I disagree with you here. You have to see the overarching picture here. Anything that God comamands us to do is the law and it's not necessarily limited to the law of Moses.

Not true. My argument is what it is - you cannot simply "declare" what Paul means by the term "law". I have argued in detail that, in Romans 3 and 4 at least, Paul is talking about the Law of Moses, not something more broad. You really need to engage those arguments - I did not simply make assertions, I made a case: When Paul denies "justification by works" or "justificaiton by law", he is making a very specific statement that justification is not achieved by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

You cannot, legitimately anyway, broaden out Paul's references to the Law of Moses to include other things. Paul is quite clear. The references to "works" and / or to "law" in Romans 3 and 4 are all references to the Law of Moses.

If that's the case what is the definition of "good works"?

 

[Cornelius]

We have many rewards...the crown of righteousness to all who love His appearing.

Timothy 4:8" Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

His appearing is G2015
?????????
epiphaneia
ep-if-an'-i-ah
From G2016; a manifestation,
This manifestation happens IN us (not in the clouds, which is the word "parousia" like in James 5:8 ) This manifestation happens to all who have be obedient to the Word.

For instance this appearing will not happen to those who did not die to self. When we look in the original Greek, we see that in the next verse it is "IF He shall be manifested" (not WHEN He shall appear): 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested,(Phaneroo, meaning to be made visible . Again speaking of Christ in us, and not Jesus coming "parousia" on the clouds) we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. So its IF because it is indeed conditional.

The crown of life to them that love Him.
"James 1:12"]Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
A crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Amen, that too only happens when we obey :Joh 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

 

[glorydaz]

Must be because I'm so used to people denying the power of God to save and keep us. :biglaugh

That is correct: God can indeed save us and keep us, when we are obedient to His Word.

Not only does He have the power to forgive us, but also to keep us from sinning.That indeed is the power of God , through the cross of Jesus Christ.

Only through disobedience, that is the same word as "unbelief" can we step outside that power of God. Nothing will shake us out of His hand, but we are free to climb out through our unbelief. Just like Israel, God's Old Testament chosen .........they were unable to enter into their promised land (eternal life) through their unbelief.Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
Heb 3:19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Many think this unbelief means unbelief in God, whereas in reality it means unbelief in His promises.

If it's based on unbelief in His promises then that puts a lot of people in danger. Fortunately, it's based on believing in the person of Christ and not on our obedience...else none would be saved.

"Can save"..."when we"....?????????? Conditions placed on the gift of God???????

There is no "when" that will negate the promises.

We obey when we repent...and look upon Jesus who was obedient unto death.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

I'll post these again in case you've forgotten them.

He who believes has eternal life (John 6:47).... Every one who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40).... I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish: no one can snatch them out of my hand (John 10:28)…. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).... Those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son (Romans 8:29).... [Nothing] will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39).... [Christ] will keep you strong to the end (1 Corinthians 1:8).... God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear (1 Corinthian 10:13).... He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion (Philippians 1:6).... We have passed from death to life (1 John 3:14).

 

[Mysteryman]

Remember stumblingstone ! :yes

Read Romans 9:30 - 33 :yes