Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps

[Cornelius]

Jesus gives a warning to Christians who does not abide in Him and then fail to bear fruit. They will be cut off and cast into the fire.

Is "cast into the fire" a "lesser reward" some talk about here??? ;)

:onfire



Regards

It really will not surprise me if some that this is indeed so.

 

[Mysteryman]

Jesus gives a warning to Christians who does not abide in Him and then fail to bear fruit. They will be cut off and cast into the fire.

Is "cast into the fire" a "lesser reward" some talk about here??? ;)

:onfire



Regards

It really will not surprise me if some that this is indeed so.

Hi C.

False brethren , yes ------------------- True brethren, NO !

 

[MarkT]

And yet I am not saying Jesus will lose any of his sheep. I'm glad to hear of your faith. I'm just saying it's important to remember the things we were taught. Jesus didn't give us teachings and warnings for us to ignore them. Examine yourselves. Take heed. I'm with you my friends.

No He will not. But many think that salvation is just a stepping over a line and believing Jesus is the Son of God and that is it. No obedience necessary., just believe and be sorry, be sorry, be sorry etc.

The point is not if the elect are chosen at the end, the point really is : Are all those who claim Jesus as Lord, going to make it?

If yes, then all of these must make it too (They are obviously professing Christians, because they call Him "Lord" )

So are these Christians saved? No of course not, they will fall away .Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. So we see it is not the Christians that "saith" that enter, but the Christians that "doeth" .


Jesus is talking to believers here. After all they are driving out demons in His name.


Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Mat 7:25 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had


Well if any Christian believes that "depart from me" means "welcome to heaven" then I suppose there is a good reason why the Lord is keeping them blind to the truth. I cannot venture to say why, because in reality He is the only one who can open eyes and ears. But I am sure, that many will read these verses, then think very hard to explain, why they are not talking about Christians.

The implication of 'your' doing is you are doing your will - the exact opposite of what Jesus said. God's will is that you show mercy, forgive men their debts, love your neighbor, show kindness.

You who are evil, overcome your evil desires!

You hate, you covet, you delight in riches! If you do not show mercy, God will show no mercy. If you do not forgive men, God will not forgive you.

Matthew 6:15 RSV
but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18:35 RSV
So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.

Be angry, but don't let the sun go down on your anger. Go quickly and make up with your brother.

There's a big difference between that 'doing' and doing mighty works and casting out demons in Jesus' name. There are also other things implied. For example, Catholics believe in their traditions, there is no such thing as a just war, etc.

 

[Mr. Aaron]

Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps

There is a lot debate today on losing one's salvation. I've decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.

Now, I don't know what that “something†could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it. Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!

Actually Paul told us exactly how we could loose our salvation. That is another two step (pun intended)
1. Do not keep the faith.
2. Be moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Verses?

Well, how about John 5:21 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." Hmmm. . . maybe Jesus was just a bit uncertain about that, do you think? Or maybe he defined eternal is "just until you reject me or sin badly enough."
Or maybe we should look at Hebrews 10:14 "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." But hmm . . . again, maybe I'm mistaken. By 'forever', maybe Paul really meant "just until I doubt my faith or engage in sin."
How about Ephesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of his glory."
Ok, all sarcasm aside (and I am sorry if I offended anyone with that.) We really do need to ask the question "Why on earth would God give us just a myriad of verses like thi" (and believe me, I could go on and on) "if the truth about our salvation is that it hangs by the thin threads of our faith and obedience?" I mean, lets be honest brothers, if we must depend on our own faith and obedience to maintain salvation, then we're pretty much damned - every one of us. We are simply unable to maintain perfect obedience or faith. There is not a man among us who does not waver day to day (dare I say hour to hour). The measure is not relative (better than my brother) it is perfection. And I'm not there (apart from God's counting me so.) Neither are you. But there is One who is perfect both in his faith and his obedience. It is the One, the Lord Jesus Christ, on whom we must depend. He earned our salvation at the cross. And He maintains our salvation by his grace. It isn't like he took all the trouble to redeem us, and is now saying to himself "Now, wait a minute! I didn't know he was going to do THAT! Oh! I thought he was going to be stronger. I take it all back!" Where we are fickle, he is always faithful. Praise the Lord for that. "His mercy leads us to repentance."

 

[Drew]

Of course they were good works...

I believe you are mistaken. The "works" that Paul writes about in Romans 4:2 are the works of the Law of Moses, not good works. As I have pointed out, it would be very odd for Paul to deny in Romans 4 what he has written in Romans 2.

This is really an issue about people dropping their pre-conceived belief that “works†must mean “good worksâ€. This is the real issue here. Once someone gets that past that roadblock, it becomes clear that Paul means what he says in Romans 2 – people are indeed ultimately saved on the basis on the quality of their lives. Paul says the same thing in Romans 8.

I am mystified as to why you would think that, at least twice in Romans, Paul would claim that we are saved by good works, when he believes the opposite.

In any event, it can be easily shown that the “works†in Romans 4:2 are the works of the Law of Moses, even apart from the above considerations. This is all about context. I will give one argument below and will add others later.

Remembering that Romans 4:2 comes only a breath or two after the end of Romans 3, here is Romans 3:27-28 in the NASB:

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

What are these works of the Law that Paul thinks cannot justify? Are they “good works†in general, or are they the practices or “works†of the Torah, the Law of Moses?

Paul is clearly talking about the Torah here, and not “good worksâ€. And so the “boast†here (verse 27) is not the boast of the person who thinks he can climb to heaven by a ladder of good works, it is instead the boast of the Jew, who thinks that following Torah will justify him.

That this is the case is borne out by verse 29, a verse which makes no sense if "good works" or a "or obedience to a general law" are in view in verse 28, but makes perfect sense if the works of Torah are what Paul is talking about:

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Paul is amplifying the implications of verse 27 and 28 and is clearly focusing on how the Jew and Gentile are both members of God’s family. In verses 27 and 28, he has written that “works†do not justify. In verse 29, it becomes clear that these are the works of Torah since, obviously, it is by doing the works of Torah that the Jew could boast "God is God of the Jews only". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Torah, of course. Not good works.

And, of course, since Paul has clearly been talking about the works of Torah at the end of chapter 3, it would be decidedly odd for him to use the very same term – works – at the beginning of chapter 4 to refer to something entirely different – good works.

 

[archangel_300]

When we receive the reward of eternal life as a result of our obedience to God, it is not works salvation, because it is GOD WORKING IN US IN THE FIRST PLACE that enables us to bring about this fruit.

Hi Francis, I disagree and agree with some parts of what you said. I disagree that eternal life is a reward for our obedience to God but I do agree that God works in us to bring about fruit. In the passage of James as you mentioned in one of your earlier posts that "faith without works is dead".
Our good works of the law do not cause us to attain faith/salvation but rather just the opposite. Our good works demonstrate that we have *first* been saved through faith.

Here's how I interpret Romans 2 in light of the rest of the scripture.
Yes those that seek after doing good, glory/honor and immortality to attain eternal life. But this doing good and seeking after God is all God's doing not ours. For instance this is similiar to the phrases found in the book of Jeremiah and Proverbs

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

On the other hand the scriptures also state:

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God."

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked,For they do not seek Your statutes.

Psalm 10:4
The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God;God is in none of his thoughts.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So how is it possible a wicked man such as myself comes faith/repentence in Christ?

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Going back to Romans 2. The reason why we seek after doing good and seek after
honor/glory/immortality and attain eternal life as a result was because we were first declared an heir of salvation and God is drawing us. The decision that God would save us is not determined based upon our obedience, nor because I did this or that or because I'm more special in some fashion. It's based only upon God's will alone. Eternal life is not the result of obedience because none of our works are worthy.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

 

[Cornelius]

And yet I am not saying Jesus will lose any of his sheep. I'm glad to hear of your faith. I'm just saying it's important to remember the things we were taught. Jesus didn't give us teachings and warnings for us to ignore them. Examine yourselves. Take heed. I'm with you my friends.

No He will not. But many think that salvation is just a stepping over a line and believing Jesus is the Son of God and that is it. No obedience necessary., just believe and be sorry, be sorry, be sorry etc.

The point is not if the elect are chosen at the end, the point really is : Are all those who claim Jesus as Lord, going to make it?

If yes, then all of these must make it too (They are obviously professing Christians, because they call Him "Lord" )

So are these Christians saved? No of course not, they will fall away .Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. So we see it is not the Christians that "saith" that enter, but the Christians that "doeth" .


Jesus is talking to believers here. After all they are driving out demons in His name.


Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Mat 7:25 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had


Well if any Christian believes that "depart from me" means "welcome to heaven" then I suppose there is a good reason why the Lord is keeping them blind to the truth. I cannot venture to say why, because in reality He is the only one who can open eyes and ears. But I am sure, that many will read these verses, then think very hard to explain, why they are not talking about Christians.

The implication of 'your' doing is you are doing your will - the exact opposite of what Jesus said. God's will is that you show mercy, forgive men their debts, love your neighbor, show kindness.

You who are evil, overcome your evil desires!

You hate, you covet, you delight in riches! If you do not show mercy, God will show no mercy. If you do not forgive men, God will not forgive you.

Matthew 6:15 RSV
but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18:35 RSV
So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.

Be angry, but don't let the sun go down on your anger. Go quickly and make up with your brother.

There's a big difference between that 'doing' and doing mighty works and casting out demons in Jesus' name. There are also other things implied. For example, Catholics believe in their traditions, there is no such thing as a just war, etc.

I agree with you. Our "doing" must be the same as the "doing" of Jesus.Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God.


People think there is no law to keep and yet there is indeed. That law is not written on stone anymore , but its is written on the hearts of believers.Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them;..... Those who transgress this law , sins . Those who transgress this law willingly and continuesly with no will to change and repent, will be lost. I am not saying that people are lost the first time they sin willingly. That is not so. God is merciful and He does indeed give us time to see if we will be willing to change. But if they persist, they will be cut off due to lack of fruit and cast away to be burned.Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[Adullam]

So this is the dividing line on this issue. Some say that obedience is NOT required for salvation. And some say that obedience IS required for salvation.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: Is. 1:19

How can any logical person think that obedience is not required? God destroyed His own people through disobedience. The grace of God empowers us to BE obedient.

The problem lies in the way that some interpret Paul. They try interpreting the rest of the bible...including the Father and the Son ...through Paul, rather than the opposite. Remember Peter's warning about they who twist Paul's meaning.

Paul is comparing the works of the law with grace. He is comparing a human effort with a surrender to the control of the Spirit. The purpose is towards obedience, righteousness, and holiness. The disobedient will NOT inheret eternal life. The flesh is not justified through belief.

 

[Drew]

I disagree that eternal life is a reward for our obedience to God but I do agree that God works in us to bring about fruit.

Greetings. If eternal life is not a reward for our obedience, how do you explain this statement from Romans 2:

God will give to each person according to what he has done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

What will God give? Eternal life.

On what basis will this be given? According to what we have done.

Here's how I interpret Romans 2 in light of the rest of the scripture.
Yes those that seek after doing good, glory/honor and immortality to attain eternal life. But this doing good and seeking after God is all God's doing not ours.

I basically agree. But this does not change what Paul has said in Romans 2 - eternal life is given on the basis of the content of your life.

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God."

This statement characterizes the state of man without Christ. It most certainly does not apply to the redeemed saint who has received the Spirit.

Look at what else Paul says in this same text:

Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes

With all respect, I simply do not understand why so many people stumble over this bit in Romans 3 and think that it over-rules what Paul has said in Romans 2 – namely that people are given eternal life according to what they have done (Paul’s words, not mine).

How can the above description characterize the believer with the Spirit.?

The believer with the Spirit seeks blood?

The believer with the Spirit has poison on their lips?

The believer with the Spirit practices deceit?

Paul is clear in Romans, and elsewhere, that the believer is being transformed into the image of Christ (Romans 8), that the believer is no longer a slave to sin (Romans 8), that the believer is a new creation (Corinthians).

I am mystified to the point of incredulity that people will read this text from Romans 3 and suggest that this means we cannot be saved by “good worksâ€. The text is clearly not about the Christian. It is about the state of the non-believer.

 

[Drew]

[People are judged by their deeds not saved by their deeds.

Paul disagrees:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Why do you not believe this?

What is your argument that 'Paul does not mean what he says?

Would you make a statement that you know to be false? I wouldn't. And I suspect that neither would Paul.

Where does Paul even remotely hint that this statement from Romans 2 is a statement that is false.

Certainly not from the "all have sinned" stuff in Romans 3. That is a statement of the status of the person without Christ. So it cannot be used, legitimately anyway, as an argument that Paul mysteriously did not mean what he wrote in Romans 2 where he asserts that there will indeed be those who get eternal life based on what they have done.

 

[Cornelius]

Greetings. If eternal life is not a reward for our obedience, .

Its a result of our obedience.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life.

Disobedience will sow to the flesh and reap death. Obedience will sow to the Spirit and reap eternal life:

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life.

 

[Cornelius]

Here is a way to loose your eternal life in ONE step:

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Rather choose life eternal:

Rom 12:10 In love of the brethren be tenderly affectioned one to another; in honor preferring one another;
Rom 12:11 in diligence not slothful; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12 rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing stedfastly in prayer;
Rom 12:13 communicating to the necessities of the saints; given to hospitality.
Rom 12:14 Bless them that persecute you; bless, and curse not.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with them that rejoice; weep with them that weep.
Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Set not your mind on high things, but condescend to things that are lowly. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Rom 12:17 Render to no man evil for evil. Take thought for things honorable in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men.

 

[Mr. Aaron]

I'm trying not to be snide here, but is there something about the definition of "eternal" that is escaping me? Either life is "eternal" or it is temporal. But it can not be both; eternal for today , but tomorrow I lose it!

 

[glorydaz]

I'm trying not to be snide here, but is there something about the definition of "eternal" that is escaping me? Either life is "eternal" or it is temporal. But it can not be both; eternal for today , but tomorrow I lose it!

Such a simple truth as that goes beyond the understanding of man who deems the work of the cross of small effect. The free gift of God is no longer free...saved is not really saved...and eternal is no longer eternal, for man desires all the glory.

 

[Drew]

There something very odd going on when people assert "Paul cannot mean what he says in Romans 2 (about people getting eternal life based on what they do) since he goes on in chapter 3 to show that it is impossible for us to do good".

Well, it is clear that in that part of Romans 3, Paul is talking about non-believers. But let's forget that for the moment and lets assume that Paul is indeed saying (in Romans 3) that no person, believer or not, can do good works.

If this is so, can someone please explain why Paul wrote in Romans 2 that some would indeed be given eternal life according to what they have done? Where does Paul ever, in any sense at all, preface his Romans 2 remarks with any kind of a statement to the effect that "what I am about to say about how you get eternal life is actually false."

 

[glorydaz]

I am fully aware of what this entails, or I would not be posting about it.

We are given direct instructions in the Word regarding sin. We are told who will not enter the Kingdom and we are told to first warn those who are living in sin. The Bible gives us guidelines which we must follow.

Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mat 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee (not in the original Greek), go, show him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.


So there is a Biblical method. We are not to run around judging people by ourselves and cutting them off. In Mat 18 we see how it must be done.

I am also not talking about sins that people who are young in the Lord is not aware of yet. Nor am I talking about sins that have been repented of and the person still has a problem overcoming it. I am talking about willful disobedience where a person just claim that everybody sins and therefor its OK for them also, because God will forgive them. That is not in the Bible.

Actually, what you should be talking about is what the verse says. If thy brother sin against YOU. If you have been wronged by someone then you confront them in love. This is not blanket permission to walk about the world confronting people about their sin. And it's always best to remember...let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

[Cornelius]

I am fully aware of what this entails, or I would not be posting about it.

We are given direct instructions in the Word regarding sin. We are told who will not enter the Kingdom and we are told to first warn those who are living in sin. The Bible gives us guidelines which we must follow.

Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mat 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee (not in the original Greek), go, show him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.


So there is a Biblical method. We are not to run around judging people by ourselves and cutting them off. In Mat 18 we see how it must be done.

I am also not talking about sins that people who are young in the Lord is not aware of yet. Nor am I talking about sins that have been repented of and the person still has a problem overcoming it. I am talking about willful disobedience where a person just claim that everybody sins and therefor its OK for them also, because God will forgive them. That is not in the Bible.

Actually, what you should be talking about is what the verse says. If thy brother sin against YOU. If you have been wronged by someone then you confront them in love. This is not blanket permission to walk about the world confronting people about their sin. And it's always best to remember...let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I have already pointed out the "against you" is not in the original Greek text. It was added by the translators.

 

[glorydaz]

We do not have the freedom to do these sins and still get to go to heaven.

1Co 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

We also know that these mentioned sins, have categories that fall under them.Idolatry does not mean falling down and worshiping a carved image, its now more than that. Its anything that comes before God in our lives. Adultery : Mat 5:28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Jesus raised the bar on sin.

We have to hunger after righteousness and not rest in our sins. We must overcome them: Mat 5:6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

You neglected to put up the rest of the scripture which says this..

Those who have been washed, sanctified and justified are not brought under the power of these sins we used to walk in.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

 

[glorydaz]

One must remember that self-righeousness can get ahold of a man as fast as anything. What you consider sin may not be sin for me. What I consider sin, may not be sin for you.

??? who wrote the commandments and who do we answer to? Ourselves or God???

Sin is sin, for everyone. I'm hoping I am just misunderstanding you, I probably am, but that didn't come out very well from you.

So if you consider it a sin to eat meat that's been offered to idols, that means it's a sin for me, too?
Think about that, brother, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

It's a fine line we walk when we judge our brothers. Paul was talking about a man that was having sex with his father's wife or some such thing. The church was encouraged to put him out of fellowship until he repented...which is all well and good. But one must remember....we each answer to the Lord, and it not our place to accuse people of sinning when they simply have more liberty in some area than you may have. Just something to consider...in case you haven't.

Calling upon someone to repent is an act of Love, glory. We are mimicing God. No, we don't condemn people, but we ARE called to be prophetic and call people out of a life of sin. Otherwise, WHO would become evangelized? One must feel a sense of sin and shame and desire to come out of it. It doesn't happen so easily when we don't challenge others.

I think what can happen is that we over-challenge or assume without all the facts without realizing what is truly happening. We jump to conclusions and rush to judge. However, when the facts are clear and we see a brother in sin, we are not just to sit on our hands and pray for him, we are to actively take him in private and talk to him...

Matthew 18:16-17...

Those who DO are rewarded, according to James...

It certainly can be an act of love. It can also be a result of someone who thinks he is the holder of all truth. I'm sure you have experienced that yourself. When someone rebukes you for "worshipping" statues, and you know that isn't what you're doing, the person rebuking you is being self-righteous and claiming you're sinning when you aren't.

I've certainly been accused of sinning by people who have no idea what my walk is...based on the fact that I stand on the promises of God. These people are judging without knowledge...they are not rebuking sin, they are merely showing their own carnal nature by assuming sin when none exists.

 

[glorydaz]

You read the Scriptures and tell me Romans 1-3 is bad news... That's a reading with an agenda that all men are filthy rags. That Jesus must "cover us" so the Father doesn't see we are mounds of manure covered with pure white snow. That we are merely imputed with Jesus' righteousness. Yea, that is an agenda alright.

Clearly, man has been given access to God's Spirit, even if they never heard of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Clearly, men have been given the ability to obey God and obtain eternal life as a result of this Spirit within them.

Clearly, you are so worried about "works salvation" that you overlook Romans 2 and what it says.

When we receive the reward of eternal life as a result of our obedience to God, it is not works salvation, because it is GOD WORKING IN US IN THE FIRST PLACE that enables us to bring about this fruit.

Works salvation means I did it. I earned it. It doesn't mean that a work of love is worthless in God's eyes... God is absolutely instrumental in me doing a work of love - and God rewards me for HIS abiding presence within me! What an absolute gift of the Father!

Regards

Good grief......The point is... :bigfrown ...man is hopeless without the grace of God. That is the simple gospel message Paul is presenting here. Man can obey all the law and live a life filled with good deeds, but without the grace of God, he will face the judgment of God based on those works alone.