Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[chessman]

I agree, if stay focused on Him we are not focusing on sin of creature. ...
Can the bridegroom divorce the bride?
Can the bride divorce the bridegroom?

The old creature or the new creature that has Christ in him/her?

 

[Gary]

I've noticed that arguments against OSAS tend to focus attention on the creature rather that the Creator.

That's because the creature created a doctrine that isn't true.
.

 

[Deborah13]

The old creature or the new creature that has Christ in him/her?

The old creature!

I like the term navel gazing. When you are doing that you are liable to walk into a wall, stumble and fall.....

 

[eddif]

I am actually a lot more comfortable with (once salvation always salvation). Then when you read about Moses on the mountain (after receiving the commandments) being told to step aside, and after the destruction of the people he would raise up a people after Moses. Exodus 32:10

Moses interceded for the people. The people did not intercede for themselves.

Jesus today intercedes for believers. We continue in salvation either by compassion or fear Jude 22-23
Jesus keeps us Jude 24

IMHO church compassion and discipline is a great part of our continuing salvation. The latter days, described in Jude, show the need of compassion and fear today.

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A Christian will not stop believing.

Please do two things for me:

1. Show me where the Bible says that. As I have said, that is the question that has to be answered: Can a Christian stop believing? The Bible is crystal clear on what will happen if they do stop believing, so we know that. Which leads to the second request....

2. Explain the warnings to believers to not stop believing. If they can't stop believing, why does the Bible warn us to not stop believing?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Gary,
We receive the gift of faith, that is what we have already done (Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:8).

The problem is people don't then place their trust--that is, believe in--that which God has shown them through the supernatural enabling of faith to know that what they can not see is true.

God gives many the faith to know something is true, so they can then believe in it and be saved. God gives the faith to believe. Most people reject that faith, in effect calling God a liar.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've noticed that arguments against OSAS tend to focus attention on the creature rather that the Creator.

That probably bothers you because you've been taught that absolutely ANYTHING a believer does to be saved is what the damnable works gospel is all about. But where in the Bible does it say that our believing is included in the works that can not justify?

For some reason the church has decided that even the 'work' of believing is included in the works that can not justify. But Paul does not do that. He contrasts believing in Christ with the works of the law as the way to be justified, not equates them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Unless you believed in vain" . . . Did they believe Paul's account of the Resurrection of Jesus? Some in Corinth said there was no resurrection from the dead (1Cor 15:12). If there is no resurrection, then they believed in vain.

Those who denied a resurrection did not "hold fast the word which" Paul "preached." They believed only part of the Gospel, and ignored the rest.

This text by no means advocates temporary salvation, or a salvation that can be abandoned once entered into.

Let's look at it again:

"1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS)

Now, according to the passage, what did the Corinthians have to do to be saved by the gospel Paul preached to them and which they received and which they were presently standing in?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are ignoring that Paul said the Lord "has reconciled you . . ."

Actually I'm not ignoring it at all. This shows us that the warning to not stop believing is being given to actual, bonafide believers, not psuedo 'believers', you know the one's the church likes to say 'don't really believe'.

The problem I sense here is you are guilty of the same circular reasoning many others are guilty of in the OSAS camp. Your mind has already been conditioned to automatically think 'Christians can't lose their salvation', so every time you see a warning in the Bible to a Christian to not stop believing you say, "Oh, they're, Christians. Christians can't lose their salvation. It can't mean what it plainly says", or "he's talking to 'fake' Christians, because Christians can't lose their salvation."

You see you can't use your own answer to the question of whether Christians can lose their salvation or not as the proof that they can't. That's called circular reasoning. But that is how OSAS believers are deceived into believing their doctrine is true, even when you show them the plain words of the Bible that say a believer can lose the hope of his salvation if he stops believing.

I learned how indoctrinations do this to people from an example Dr. Jeremiah gave about a JW he was talking to once. Her predetermined doctrine made her completely blind to a scripture he showed her in the Bible which completely contradicted what she had been taught was true. She could not 'see' the plain words in the Bible. I had to honestly admit I did the same thing concerning things I believed--I interpreted the Bible according to my doctrine, instead of letting the Bible dictate my doctrine.

We have been raised in Christ, and are seated with Him (Col 1:13, Col 2:12).
We are redeemed (Col 1:14)
We are forgiven (Col 1:14, Col 2:13).
We have peace with God by the blood of the cross (Col 1:20).
We are atoned for and remain reconciled to God (Col 1:21).

To deny these things is to be "moved away from the hope of the Gospel."

"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard..." (Colossians 1:22-23 NAS)

Okay, so according to the passage, what is it that has to be done in order to be reconciled and presented before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach?

Can a man hope in himself and in Christ? No, our only hope is Christ. He is the Living One, the Resurrection and the Life.

Where is this teaching in the Bible that says believing in Christ, and being required to do that to the end, is equivalent to hoping in oneself?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am actually a lot more comfortable with (once salvation always salvation). Then when you read about Moses on the mountain (after receiving the commandments) being told to step aside, and after the destruction of the people he would raise up a people after Moses. Exodus 32:10

Moses interceded for the people. The people did not intercede for themselves.

Jesus today intercedes for believers. We continue in salvation either by compassion or fear Jude 22-23
Jesus keeps us Jude 24

We can't save ourselves. There is no doubt about that. But why does that mean we play no role whatsoever in what God does make possible for us? How does us accepting the grace of God all of a sudden make salvation not of God anymore?

I'm pretty sure the work that is condemned as not being able to justify is doing the righteous things of the law ('keep Sabbath', 'love your neighbor as yourself', etc.), not the 'work' of believing in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin. But for some reason the church says that if we assign the work of believing to the believer the gospel suddenly becomes the damnable works gospel that Paul warned against. But it's clear he said nothing in regard to 'believing' being a work that can not justify. In fact, that is what he said that is the very thing that DOES justify. And he did not say that if YOU do that, then you are condemned by a false gospel of works. Exactly the contrary, actually. I don't know how God can do our believing for us anyway. I can see how he can graciously help us do that believing...like helping a baby take his first steps. The baby can't do it without some help, but it is surely something the baby does, not the parents, but, as I say, something which can't happen without their help.

 

[eddif]

I guess a little creation information might be sought.

Could we look

We can't save ourselves. There is no doubt about that. But why does that mean we play no role whatsoever in what God does make possible for us? How does us accepting the grace of God all of a sudden make salvation not of God anymore?

I'm pretty sure the work that is condemned as not being able to justify is doing the righteous things of the law ('keep Sabbath', 'love your neighbor as yourself', etc.), not the 'work' of believing in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin. But for some reason the church says that if we assign the work of believing to the believer the gospel suddenly becomes the damnable works gospel that Paul warned against. But it's clear he said nothing in regard to 'believing' being a work that can not justify. In fact, that is what he said that is the very thing that DOES justify. And he did not say that if YOU do that, then you are condemned by a false gospel of works. Exactly the contrary, actually. I don't know how God can do our believing for us anyway. I can see how he can graciously help us do that believing...like helping a baby take his first steps. The baby can't do it without some help, but it is surely something the baby does, not the parents, but, as I say, something which can't happen without their help.

I have an internal Holy Spirit struggle going on inside me. The Spirit strives against my flesh and my flesh strives against the Spirit. At the last trump my flesh will be totally changed.

Till that time my mind is where I / we serve the Law of Christ.

The Great Commission tells us what to do. I believe you have set about doing that with all that you are. I also believe that Jesus told the Apostles to wait till they
receive power from on high to get the job done. In doing the job they give credit to God for the work they do.

This is a great conflict of mind. The Commission first comes without qualification, but the wait is added. My favorite OT scripture is Ezekiel 2:1-2
Here a command is given, and then Ruac is given credit for causing the action and hearing. All I hope to do is show that ultimately Father, Son, Holy Spirit are given credit for what we do. Perhaps this insistence is misguided by me. I can be wrong. Scriptures I read say Paul gave credit to Christ and not his personal carnal flesh.

I think there is very little difference in what we say. The Gentiles do what the Law says while being without the Law (this has to be understood- and - maybe I am seeing through too foggy a dark glass).

I am for the law being done lawfully. I realize there are few Gentiles that grieve over the lawful use of the Law. The Law has it's place in daily life (used lawfully).

I guess I might be branded some strange brand, but I am just using scripture (which is better searched out by those who wonder what I am saying).

Jethro I enjoy your posts. I am not against you. The fire refines all of us.

If I am just talking like a kid; educate me.

eddif

 

[Gregg]

Please do two things for me:

1. Show me where the Bible says that. As I have said, that is the question that has to be answered: Can a Christian stop believing? The Bible is crystal clear on what will happen if they do stop believing, so we know that. Which leads to the second request....

2. Explain the warnings to believers to not stop believing. If they can't stop believing, why does the Bible warn us to not stop believing?

Jethro,
Is has already being shown that salvation and eternal life are sustained by Christ. There is nothing that a Christian can do to end God's accomplished work in Christ.

A Christian may wander, sin, or his faith may become weak; but not so as to lose his salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,
Is has already being shown that salvation and eternal life are sustained by Christ. There is nothing that a Christian can do to end God's accomplished work in Christ.

A Christian may wander, sin, or his faith may become weak; but not so as to lose his salvation.

That doesn't explain the warnings to a people that you say those warnings don't apply to. Remember, I'm in agreement with you--the passages that warn to not stop believing show that he's talking to people already saved.

 

[Gary]

A Christian may wander, sin, or his faith may become weak; but not so as to lose his salvation.

Scripture disagrees with you.


James 5
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


2 Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[d] from those who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”


.

 

[Gregg]

That probably bothers you because you've been taught that absolutely ANYTHING a believer does to be saved is what the damnable works gospel is all about. But where in the Bible does it say that our believing is included in the works that can not justify?

Jethro,
It is Christ who saves us because of what He has done, not because of what a person does. The Lord cultivates our will and gives us faith so that we might turn towards Him and place our faith in Him. The exercise of our will and faith is not a work of ours that leads to salvation; as even those two things are a work of God.

It is God's expectation, His imperative, His command, His will . . . that we believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[Gregg]

Let's look at it again:

"1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS)

Now, according to the passage, what did the Corinthians have to do to be saved by the gospel Paul preached to them and which they received and which they were presently standing in?

I have no need to look at it again. But you, please, look at it again . . . and again . . . and again [pun intended!].

 

[Gregg]

The problem I sense here is you are guilty of the same circular reasoning many others are guilty of in the OSAS camp.

Guilty, I confess.

I am caught up in the truth, and I can not escape the Truth.

 

[Butch5]

This issue can be settled simply by looking at history. The idea that salvation cannot be lost we rejected by the church until the reformation. If it was rejected by those who were taught by Jesus and the apostles I'd say it's a pretty good bet it's not Scriptural

 

[Gregg]

Scripture disagrees with you.


James 5
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


2 Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[d] from those who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Hi Gary,

2 Pet 2:18-22 address false prophets and those who follow their false teaching. Christians aren't as dogs and sows, but sheep who follow their Shepherd. Should one of His sheep stray, He will retrieve that sheep.

 

[Gary]

Hi Gary,

2 Pet 2:18-22 address false prophets and those who follow their false teaching. Christians aren't as dogs and sows, but sheep who follow their Shepherd. Should one of His sheep stray, He will retrieve that sheep.

Show me where it states that in the bible.
.